I-shifts & other auto box attrocities

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
121

newmercman:
So Switchy, as you do a lot of long distance driving, what exactly is the benefit of having an autoshift on your job :question:

Many hours of rolling along on the limiter in top gear, hardly a challenge to drop a cog here and there :question:

For urban work, yes, but long distance, not necessary at all, sure, they’re a nice luxury, but that’s all they are in a long distance lorry, sometimes the luxury can be more trouble than it’s worth though :open_mouth:

I’ll bet with you on the hill start thing, a bit of sensitivity on the right pedal achieves the same result as any clutch pedal :wink:

Making a lot of assumptions about the type of work I do there! Which I suppose is fair enough considering what’s in the videos. But I’m as likely to be seen doing 10 drops round London as runnin to Spain these days to be honest. But even if I did do Spain all the time I still don’t get what you’re saying. Lots of things arent nessescary. I’ve cruise control and a retarder, don’t need them but they make for a more relaxing life. Get on a French autoroute, set cruise control, set retarder and I don’t have to touch pedals for hours. And I’ve never had any auto breakdown. I didn’t think you were one of the old fuddy duddies NMM. Seems you are!

122

At the end of the day, despite all the pros and cons and arguments, auto boxes are here to stay whether we like it or not,it’s called progress or regress depending on your point of view.Tachographs can also fit into the discussion if you like,they are also automated and digital and here to stay,a far cry from the log books we used years ago(better or worse)■■

123

billybigrig:

Carryfast:

newmercman:
I’ll bet with you on the hill start thing, a bit of sensitivity on the right pedal achieves the same result as any clutch pedal :wink:

This automated manual hillstart thing is confusing.Either the driver has control over all the parameters or the computer and gear shift mechanism has.But if they’re mixing them,in the case of the driver doesn’t kow or have any control over all three parameters,of accelerator application,clutch engagement and brake release then the chance of getting the thing started has to be a hit or miss anyone’s guess at least as to the timing of clutch engagement and brake release which need to be virtually synchronised with a slight bias in favour of clutch engagement.So who’s actually engaging the clutch and who’s releasing the brake and who actually decides the timing of the two if the computer only does one of them not the other.That’s even without the issue of having control and feel of the clutch biting point on your left foot as opposed to accelerator input on your right foot which is what stops the clutch getting burnt out. :open_mouth: :confused: :laughing:

I can totally understand Crow’s point in the argument.

See Switchs post above :unamused: :laughing: :laughing: The system just holds the brake until it senses positive take off just like doing a hill start using the handbrake in a manual. I imagine it’s available on manuals too as it’s simply a general driver aid not a tool to make the mystical auto box of trickery and black magic work :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

It’s just to prevent unintentional roll back therefore really a safety aid more than a driver aid. Just like such voodoo as ABS, ASR etc etc

I never looked for it on the DUF because I didn’t even think about it :laughing: :laughing: nor feel I needed it any more than I would in a manual.

Stay in the 70’s Carry, you’re clearly not grasping these new fangled ideas. You know cars don’t have a choke now, I tell you man it’s the future and it’s craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyyyy :wink:

So let’s get this right ‘it senses’ ‘positive take off’ :open_mouth: :confused: :confused: .How,when and with what :question: .I’m even more confused now than I was before. :confused: :confused: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

You don’t really ‘sense positive take off’ doing a hill start it’s more like you just know how to balance the amount of accelerator input with engaging the clutch (to little accelerator and the thing will just stall and/or roll back too much and it just wrecks the clutch and/or driveline).The same applies with the way in which the clutch is engaged,which is all dependent on co ordination between what your brain is telling your left leg/foot,and the co ordination and timing of clutch engagement,accelerator input and brake release and all that takes a bit more than just ‘sensing positive take off’ because at that point you haven’t taken off anywhere yet. :wink: :laughing:

As for the 1970’s it all depended on what car you were driving at the time.There was no choke on an electronically fuel injected Jag or BMW and even some cars had automatic chokes in the 1960’s but a lot of people converted them to manual chokes.Just as there’s plenty of people who’ve converted cars fitted with automatic gearboxes to proper manual ones with a proper clutch assuming they were worth all the trouble and didn’t just send them for scrap before their time. :smiling_imp: :wink: :laughing:

124

Hill hold functions are not wired in to anything in the drivetrain, all they do is put a slight delay on the release of the brakes, so you come to a stop on a hill, if the switch is on, you put your foot on the brake pedal, the brakes come on and you stop, then when you want to go, you lift off the brake and hit the gas, by this time the brakes have released and off you go…simple :open_mouth:

Some cars have it too, I rented an Astra last year, it had hill hold and a tap on the brakes was all you needed to keep from rolling back on a hill, it also had a stupid little switch instead of a handbrake, most disappointing in a hire car, almost impossible to do a handbrake turn…almost, but not quite :laughing:

125

you’re right c/f, YOU don’t sense the positive take off,the truck’s computer does.It takes away driver error,how many times have you seen new drivers setting off on a hill with a heavy load and the truck kangarooing all over the place and shaking itself to pieces,how much does that cost the operator?The crow is right as well, soon there will be no DRIVERS,just steering wheel attendants, the truck will do it all by its self,all you will need to do is steer it.Well not you personally,you live in the past.Things cannot stand still,they have to keep moving forward.Manual gearboxes will soon disappear altogether.I keep getting this amusing picture in my head of you c/f, stuffing a 13 speed fuller up the r send of the horse that’s pulling your cart.

126

Christ who’d have though something so simple could confuse the mastermind that is Carryfast.

127

switchlogic:
Making a lot of assumptions about the type of work I do there! Which I suppose is fair enough considering what’s in the videos. But I’m as likely to be seen doing 10 drops round London as runnin to Spain these days to be honest. But even if I did do Spain all the time I still don’t get what you’re saying. Lots of things arent nessescary. I’ve cruise control and a retarder, don’t need them but they make for a more relaxing life. Get on a French autoroute, set cruise control, set retarder and I don’t have to touch pedals for hours. And I’ve never had any auto breakdown. I didn’t think you were one of the old fuddy duddies NMM. Seems you are!

Yes, that’s what I based my assumptions on :wink:

Not a fuddy duddy, but remember I do spend a lot of time looking into these lorry things for my other job as a scribe. In that role I have learned a lot and it is from that knowledge that I base my opinion. As a driver, I like an autoshift, as long as I can still have the option to use it manually, I still drive the lorry, I’m not just going to let it do its own thing, this way I am still being a professional and not a steering wheel attendant :open_mouth:

I also like retarders and cruise control, the retarder is an excellent safety feature and should be mandatory on all heavy goods vehicles. Cruise control makes it easy to drive and when used correctly it will save fuel. Another must have is A/C, you should always be in a comfortable environment :bulb: All those things are good as far as I’m concerned :sunglasses:

The difference between autoshift and retarders and cruise control is the one simple fact that when either of those goes wonky, it will not leave you sitting on the side of the road waiting for a spotty little oik to turn up with his laptop and then tell you that you need to be towed in so they can start throwing microprocessors and switches at the thing until they find the right one and you get going again :open_mouth:

So many things on a lorry are totally unecessary, they may make life a bit easier, but take electric windows or seat adjustment, how hard is it to wind a window up or down, or how difficult to move a lever on the side of a chair :question: Are they really necessary :question: Then we get to electric mirror adjustment, I’m for that, it can allow you to see things a rigid mirror set up cannot, so has a safety aspect to it, it also helps you from getting soaked jumping in and out of the cab ten times in the ■■■■■■■ rain to set your mirrors up properly, but that side of it is just a convienient by product of their true function and not their whole reason for being.

So anyway, gearboxes :laughing: I’m a pretty decent driver, I can swap between all kinds of lorries and find the correct gear when I need it, even switching between different gear patterns, stand H patterns and the different h patterns of the Swedish makes, a 16spd range change with splitter or a 12spd range change with splitter, a 12spd with splitter only, a slap over double H pattern or a switch on the front or a twisting, sliding collar on a standard H pattern, twin splitters, synchro or constant mesh, autoshifts of all types, switches on column stalks, on the dash, levers on the side of the chair or the armrest, back to front manuals, even a torque converter fully automatic, I’ve driven them all in my time. Well whoopie [zb]ing doo, so have hundreds of thousands of lorry drivers, it’s what we should all be able to do, just as we should be able to carry any load, we should be able to drive any lorry, so why do we really NEED a little box of electronics to change gear for us :question:

I’ll tell you why, there are two main factors, one is pure luck, the other is pure design :open_mouth:

First, luck. The steering wheel attendant phenomenom, luckily for companies and the pathetic excuses for drivers that seem to inhabit our roads today, the autoshift came about, this way they can actually get the lorry out of the yard :unamused:

Second, design. The vehicle manufacturers have got everyone by the ■■■■■■■■, if a new lorry breaks down, it goes into a main dealer repair facilty, so the manufacturer and its representatives make money out of the labour and the parts. They do not just make a little bit of money either, because the electronics are all connected they spend hours, sometimes days, searching for the problem, then they replace parts left, right and center, hopefully they get it right, but they don’t care, every minute in the workshop earns the dealer money, every part needed earns the manufacturer money, none of which is cheap. Because of the requirement to have the right computer programme, you can’t fix anything yourself anymore, you can’t go to Sid the Spanner under the Railway Arches, you have to go into a main dealer and get your pants pulled down every bloody time :unamused:

128

newmercman:
Hill hold functions are not wired in to anything in the drivetrain, all they do is put a slight delay on the release of the brakes, so you come to a stop on a hill, if the switch is on, you put your foot on the brake pedal, the brakes come on and you stop, then when you want to go, you lift off the brake and hit the gas, by this time the brakes have released and off you go…simple :open_mouth:

The automated MAN TipMatic® shift system incorporates the setting-off aid MAN EasyStart which means setting off on gradients is much easier and therefore safer. When active, the stationary vehicle is prevented from rolling back for up to 2 seconds by maintaining the brake pressure which was last applied by the brake pedal once the brake pedal is released and the parking brake is not applied. When setting off, the service brake is automatically released as soon as the required engine torque is available.

The last sentence would suggest otherwise ■■? Sure I’ve seen torque requirement mentioned somewhere for DAF too :blush: :blush: I looked up the MAN because I had one for a few weeks a couple of years ago with this on it. I should of realised the DAF being fundamentally the same box would of had it and I remember it didn’t seem to just let the brakes off when you touched the go pedal until you felt it “take the strain”. Of course that could be old age and dry rot playing tricks on the mind :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:

I’m pretty sure the Volvo one is just a time or pedal press thing though but as good as the I shift already is it’s pretty superfluous IMO :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

any hoo I couldn’t really give a rats ■■■. I know what I like and I know what works. I know my own capabilities and ability to adapt/learn/embrace new technologies based on being a lazy [zb]er :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Above all I know the suns out and I’ve got cold beer so I’m off to my hammock for a bit :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing:

129

newmercman:

switchlogic:
Making a lot of assumptions about the type of work I do there! Which I suppose is fair enough considering what’s in the videos. But I’m as likely to be seen doing 10 drops round London as runnin to Spain these days to be honest. But even if I did do Spain all the time I still don’t get what you’re saying. Lots of things arent nessescary. I’ve cruise control and a retarder, don’t need them but they make for a more relaxing life. Get on a French autoroute, set cruise control, set retarder and I don’t have to touch pedals for hours. And I’ve never had any auto breakdown. I didn’t think you were one of the old fuddy duddies NMM. Seems you are!

Yes, that’s what I based my assumptions on :wink:

Not a fuddy duddy, but remember I do spend a lot of time looking into these lorry things for my other job as a scribe. In that role I have learned a lot and it is from that knowledge that I base my opinion. As a driver, I like an autoshift, as long as I can still have the option to use it manually, I still drive the lorry, I’m not just going to let it do its own thing, this way I am still being a professional and not a steering wheel attendant :open_mouth:

I also like retarders and cruise control, the retarder is an excellent safety feature and should be mandatory on all heavy goods vehicles. Cruise control makes it easy to drive and when used correctly it will save fuel. Another must have is A/C, you should always be in a comfortable environment :bulb: All those things are good as far as I’m concerned :sunglasses:

The difference between autoshift and retarders and cruise control is the one simple fact that when either of those goes wonky, it will not leave you sitting on the side of the road waiting for a spotty little oik to turn up with his laptop and then tell you that you need to be towed in so they can start throwing microprocessors and switches at the thing until they find the right one and you get going again :open_mouth:

So many things on a lorry are totally unecessary, they may make life a bit easier, but take electric windows or seat adjustment, how hard is it to wind a window up or down, or how difficult to move a lever on the side of a chair :question: Are they really necessary :question: Then we get to electric mirror adjustment, I’m for that, it can allow you to see things a rigid mirror set up cannot, so has a safety aspect to it, it also helps you from getting soaked jumping in and out of the cab ten times in the ■■■■■■■ rain to set your mirrors up properly, but that side of it is just a convienient by product of their true function and not their whole reason for being.

So anyway, gearboxes :laughing: I’m a pretty decent driver, I can swap between all kinds of lorries and find the correct gear when I need it, even switching between different gear patterns, stand H patterns and the different h patterns of the Swedish makes, a 16spd range change with splitter or a 12spd range change with splitter, a 12spd with splitter only, a slap over double H pattern or a switch on the front or a twisting, sliding collar on a standard H pattern, twin splitters, synchro or constant mesh, autoshifts of all types, switches on column stalks, on the dash, levers on the side of the chair or the armrest, back to front manuals, even a torque converter fully automatic, I’ve driven them all in my time. Well whoopie [zb]ing doo, so have hundreds of thousands of lorry drivers, it’s what we should all be able to do, just as we should be able to carry any load, we should be able to drive any lorry, so why do we really NEED a little box of electronics to change gear for us :question:

I’ll tell you why, there are two main factors, one is pure luck, the other is pure design :open_mouth:

First, luck. The steering wheel attendant phenomenom, luckily for companies and the pathetic excuses for drivers that seem to inhabit our roads today, the autoshift came about, this way they can actually get the lorry out of the yard :unamused:

Second, design. The vehicle manufacturers have got everyone by the ■■■■■■■■, if a new lorry breaks down, it goes into a main dealer repair facilty, so the manufacturer and its representatives make money out of the labour and the parts. They do not just make a little bit of money either, because the electronics are all connected they spend hours, sometimes days, searching for the problem, then they replace parts left, right and center, hopefully they get it right, but they don’t care, every minute in the workshop earns the dealer money, every part needed earns the manufacturer money, none of which is cheap. Because of the requirement to have the right computer programme, you can’t fix anything yourself anymore, you can’t go to Sid the Spanner under the Railway Arches, you have to go into a main dealer and get your pants pulled down every bloody time :unamused:

Thats an essay Carryfast would be proud of.

130

billybigrig:

newmercman:
Hill hold functions are not wired in to anything in the drivetrain, all they do is put a slight delay on the release of the brakes, so you come to a stop on a hill, if the switch is on, you put your foot on the brake pedal, the brakes come on and you stop, then when you want to go, you lift off the brake and hit the gas, by this time the brakes have released and off you go…simple :open_mouth:

The automated MAN TipMatic® shift system incorporates the setting-off aid MAN EasyStart which means setting off on gradients is much easier and therefore safer. When active, the stationary vehicle is prevented from rolling back for up to 2 seconds by maintaining the brake pressure which was last applied by the brake pedal once the brake pedal is released and the parking brake is not applied. When setting off, the service brake is automatically released as soon as the required engine torque is available.

The last sentence would suggest otherwise ■■? Sure I’ve seen torque requirement mentioned somewhere for DAF too :blush: :blush: I looked up the MAN because I had one for a few weeks a couple of years ago with this on it. I should of realised the DAF being fundamentally the same box would of had it and I remember it didn’t seem to just let the brakes off when you touched the go pedal until you felt it “take the strain”. Of course that could be old age and dry rot playing tricks on the mind :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:

I’m pretty sure the Volvo one is just a time or pedal press thing though but as good as the I shift already is it’s pretty superfluous IMO :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

any hoo I couldn’t really give a rats ■■■. I know what I like and I know what works. I know my own capabilities and ability to adapt/learn/embrace new technologies based on being a lazy [zb]er :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Above all I know the suns out and I’ve got cold beer so I’m off to my hammock for a bit :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing:

I’ve driven coaches that held brakes till you pressed throttle so I agree.

131

I take it you disagree then Luke :laughing:

132

you’re right in what you say about main dealers and repairs NMM,but the sad fact is that, that situation is here and it can’t be changed back.You know as well as I do everything is money orientated,the big company bosses don’t really give a hoot if you are a dedicated professional or not as long as profit is made.It’s a known fact that cruise controls and automatic gear boxes save money for the company albeit that they break down now and then.It’s the numbers game with them, 1 breaks down 25 don’t,they still make money.I know it’s different for an owner operator with 1 or 2 wagons, where a break down, even a minor one can be the difference between profit and loss,and whereas previously he had a chance of fixing it himself or at least having sid spanner fix it for him,that facility is now denied him.It’s a pity,but that’s the way it is.Whether all the mod cons are needed or not they are here to stay,no-one is going to take them away now.

133

You are right Tony, well you agree with me, so of course you are :laughing:

My opinion stems from one thing you mention, namely being a small operator in the past and possibly again in the future (now I’m in a country where you can earn a few quid from a lorry) the other is one you’ve experienced. I spend a lot of time far from home in the middle of nowhere, I have awful weather conditions to overcome and my needs are very simple, I want (as a driver or operator) a lorry that will get me from A to B without breaking down, when, not if, I do break down, I want to be able to get a 9/16th spanner, a hammer and a pair of pliers out of my tool box and sort the problem out there and then and continue on my merry way. I do not want to be stuck on the side of the road 12,000ft above sea level in a blizzard because I cannot do anything to get to safety because a microswitch has thrown a hissy fit and caused the engine/gearbox/whatever to shut down :unamused:

I like all the creature comforts of a modern lorry and do not, for a second, want to go back to the old crap we used to drive, but I also don’t think we need so much complexity, some of the stuff on lorries nowadays is only there because we can have it, not because we need it, there is a happy medium I’m sure, but we’ve yet to find it :wink:

134

Tony Taylor:
you’re right c/f, I keep getting this amusing picture in my head of you c/f, stuffing a 13 speed fuller up the r send of the horse that’s pulling your cart.

Quality :smiley:

135

newmercman:

switchlogic:
Making a lot of assumptions about the type of work I do there! Which I suppose is fair enough considering what’s in the videos. But I’m as likely to be seen doing 10 drops round London as runnin to Spain these days to be honest. But even if I did do Spain all the time I still don’t get what you’re saying. Lots of things arent nessescary. I’ve cruise control and a retarder, don’t need them but they make for a more relaxing life. Get on a French autoroute, set cruise control, set retarder and I don’t have to touch pedals for hours. And I’ve never had any auto breakdown. I didn’t think you were one of the old fuddy duddies NMM. Seems you are!

Yes, that’s what I based my assumptions on :wink:

Not a fuddy duddy, but remember I do spend a lot of time looking into these lorry things for my other job as a scribe. In that role I have learned a lot and it is from that knowledge that I base my opinion. As a driver, I like an autoshift, as long as I can still have the option to use it manually, I still drive the lorry, I’m not just going to let it do its own thing, this way I am still being a professional and not a steering wheel attendant :open_mouth:

I also like retarders and cruise control, the retarder is an excellent safety feature and should be mandatory on all heavy goods vehicles. Cruise control makes it easy to drive and when used correctly it will save fuel. Another must have is A/C, you should always be in a comfortable environment :bulb: All those things are good as far as I’m concerned :sunglasses:

The difference between autoshift and retarders and cruise control is the one simple fact that when either of those goes wonky, it will not leave you sitting on the side of the road waiting for a spotty little oik to turn up with his laptop and then tell you that you need to be towed in so they can start throwing microprocessors and switches at the thing until they find the right one and you get going again :open_mouth:

So many things on a lorry are totally unecessary, they may make life a bit easier, but take electric windows or seat adjustment, how hard is it to wind a window up or down, or how difficult to move a lever on the side of a chair :question: Are they really necessary :question: Then we get to electric mirror adjustment, I’m for that, it can allow you to see things a rigid mirror set up cannot, so has a safety aspect to it, it also helps you from getting soaked jumping in and out of the cab ten times in the ■■■■■■■ rain to set your mirrors up properly, but that side of it is just a convienient by product of their true function and not their whole reason for being.

So anyway, gearboxes :laughing: I’m a pretty decent driver, I can swap between all kinds of lorries and find the correct gear when I need it, even switching between different gear patterns, stand H patterns and the different h patterns of the Swedish makes, a 16spd range change with splitter or a 12spd range change with splitter, a 12spd with splitter only, a slap over double H pattern or a switch on the front or a twisting, sliding collar on a standard H pattern, twin splitters, synchro or constant mesh, autoshifts of all types, switches on column stalks, on the dash, levers on the side of the chair or the armrest, back to front manuals, even a torque converter fully automatic, I’ve driven them all in my time. Well whoopie [zb]ing doo, so have hundreds of thousands of lorry drivers, it’s what we should all be able to do, just as we should be able to carry any load, we should be able to drive any lorry, so why do we really NEED a little box of electronics to change gear for us :question:

I’ll tell you why, there are two main factors, one is pure luck, the other is pure design :open_mouth:

First, luck. The steering wheel attendant phenomenom, luckily for companies and the pathetic excuses for drivers that seem to inhabit our roads today, the autoshift came about, this way they can actually get the lorry out of the yard :unamused:

Second, design. The vehicle manufacturers have got everyone by the ■■■■■■■■, if a new lorry breaks down, it goes into a main dealer repair facilty, so the manufacturer and its representatives make money out of the labour and the parts. They do not just make a little bit of money either, because the electronics are all connected they spend hours, sometimes days, searching for the problem, then they replace parts left, right and center, hopefully they get it right, but they don’t care, every minute in the workshop earns the dealer money, every part needed earns the manufacturer money, none of which is cheap. Because of the requirement to have the right computer programme, you can’t fix anything yourself anymore, you can’t go to Sid the Spanner under the Railway Arches, you have to go into a main dealer and get your pants pulled down every bloody time :unamused:

That explains it. :smiling_imp: :laughing: Although I’ve still got my doubts about all this hill hold bollox being the same thing as the required amounts of co ordination/timing and the balancing act between accelerator,clutch and brake release needed to carry out a flawless hill start on anything let alone a loaded 44 tonner.

I really want to see Crow’s test with the egg placed behind the wheels on a hill start on the 1:3 at Chobham,or something easier if it can’t manage that,of a loaded 44 tonner and then a decent explanation as to how the zb it did it assuming that it either doesn’t break the egg or burn out the clutch whichever happens first.Considering that what we seem to have is something that releases the brake at any time which only it knows not the driver and engages the clutch as and when it feels like it,again nothing to do with the driver,while the driver just puts his foot on the accelerator. :open_mouth: :confused: :confused: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

136

As an ex owner operator myself NMM,I completely understand how you feel.In our heyday the crow and me had 9 on the road,some on middle east some on europe,non working solely in the UK.It was always a worry when one had a problem,but at least we did all our own mechanicing and servicing,if it would have been today we would never have survived.I could strip an 89 engine down to crank in less than 2 and a half hours without using any air tools,We’ve changed gear boxes on the side of the road with only a bottle jack and a piece of rope.We ran a scania home from Italy on 5 pistons,I towed him up Mont Blanc truck and trailer tow bar truck and trailer,with the tow bar fixed to my underrun bar with half a span set.Very unfortunately for the small operator those days have gone and they’ll never come back.I admire anyone who wants to be his own boss,but I think it’s extremely difficult in this day and age.

137

Tony Taylor:
As an ex owner operator myself NMM,I completely understand how you feel.In our heyday the crow and me had 9 on the road,some on middle east some on europe,non working solely in the UK.It was always a worry when one had a problem,but at least we did all our own mechanicing and servicing,if it would have been today we would never have survived.I could strip an 89 engine down to crank in less than 2 and a half hours without using any air tools,We’ve changed gear boxes on the side of the road with only a bottle jack and a piece of rope.We ran a scania home from Italy on 5 pistons,I towed him up Mont Blanc truck and trailer tow bar truck and trailer,with the tow bar fixed to my underrun bar with half a span set.Very unfortunately for the small operator those days have gone and they’ll never come back.I admire anyone who wants to be his own boss,but I think it’s extremely difficult in this day and age.

Maybe I’m wrong but that seems to show that the Scandinavian wagons weren’t everything that they’re made out to be.Maybe nmm can correct me but that type of roadside workshop repair requirement doesn’t seem to have been a common feature of long haul North American or Colonial truck operation using American type trucks during the same period in time.Which is the case which I’ve been making elsewhere and which is the last place you’d now expect to see them fitting a built in reliability issue compared to the good old fashioned if it ain’t broke don’t fix it fuller.It must be cheaper and more economic in terms of reliability and maintenance costs to sort the driver issue instead.

138

you know c/f,I think you deliberately miss the point or you just like arguing.Beaumarchais had a quotation that’s right up your street"It isn’t necessary to understand things in order to argue about them"if you don’t know who beaumarchais was then look him up!!Just for you c/f:- how many times in a year would you expect a wagon to break down?How many times would you expect a wagon to break down in 20 years?pick a number 1 2 3 4 5 or more lets take 10.10 times in 20 years thats reasonable?? now times that by 9 thats 90 times c/f and some of them are going to be serious or is that unreasonable.I think that demonstrates that Scandinavian truck are pretty reliable.or do you still disagree??the point I was trying to make was whereas one could fix his own trucks in days goneby nowadays you cannot.

139

newmercman:

switchlogic:
Making a lot of assumptions about the type of work I do there! Which I suppose is fair enough considering what’s in the videos. But I’m as likely to be seen doing 10 drops round London as runnin to Spain these days to be honest. But even if I did do Spain all the time I still don’t get what you’re saying. Lots of things arent nessescary. I’ve cruise control and a retarder, don’t need them but they make for a more relaxing life. Get on a French autoroute, set cruise control, set retarder and I don’t have to touch pedals for hours. And I’ve never had any auto breakdown. I didn’t think you were one of the old fuddy duddies NMM. Seems you are!

Yes, that’s what I based my assumptions on :wink:

Not a fuddy duddy, but remember I do spend a lot of time looking into these lorry things for my other job as a scribe. In that role I have learned a lot and it is from that knowledge that I base my opinion. As a driver, I like an autoshift, as long as I can still have the option to use it manually, I still drive the lorry, I’m not just going to let it do its own thing, this way I am still being a professional and not a steering wheel attendant :open_mouth:

I also like retarders and cruise control, the retarder is an excellent safety feature and should be mandatory on all heavy goods vehicles. Cruise control makes it easy to drive and when used correctly it will save fuel. Another must have is A/C, you should always be in a comfortable environment :bulb: All those things are good as far as I’m concerned :sunglasses:

The difference between autoshift and retarders and cruise control is the one simple fact that when either of those goes wonky, it will not leave you sitting on the side of the road waiting for a spotty little oik to turn up with his laptop and then tell you that you need to be towed in so they can start throwing microprocessors and switches at the thing until they find the right one and you get going again :open_mouth:

So many things on a lorry are totally unecessary, they may make life a bit easier, but take electric windows or seat adjustment, how hard is it to wind a window up or down, or how difficult to move a lever on the side of a chair :question: Are they really necessary :question: Then we get to electric mirror adjustment, I’m for that, it can allow you to see things a rigid mirror set up cannot, so has a safety aspect to it, it also helps you from getting soaked jumping in and out of the cab ten times in the ■■■■■■■ rain to set your mirrors up properly, but that side of it is just a convienient by product of their true function and not their whole reason for being.

So anyway, gearboxes :laughing: I’m a pretty decent driver, I can swap between all kinds of lorries and find the correct gear when I need it, even switching between different gear patterns, stand H patterns and the different h patterns of the Swedish makes, a 16spd range change with splitter or a 12spd range change with splitter, a 12spd with splitter only, a slap over double H pattern or a switch on the front or a twisting, sliding collar on a standard H pattern, twin splitters, synchro or constant mesh, autoshifts of all types, switches on column stalks, on the dash, levers on the side of the chair or the armrest, back to front manuals, even a torque converter fully automatic, I’ve driven them all in my time. Well whoopie [zb]ing doo, so have hundreds of thousands of lorry drivers, it’s what we should all be able to do, just as we should be able to carry any load, we should be able to drive any lorry, so why do we really NEED a little box of electronics to change gear for us :question:

I’ll tell you why, there are two main factors, one is pure luck, the other is pure design :open_mouth:

First, luck. The steering wheel attendant phenomenom, luckily for companies and the pathetic excuses for drivers that seem to inhabit our roads today, the autoshift came about, this way they can actually get the lorry out of the yard :unamused:

Second, design. The vehicle manufacturers have got everyone by the ■■■■■■■■, if a new lorry breaks down, it goes into a main dealer repair facilty, so the manufacturer and its representatives make money out of the labour and the parts. They do not just make a little bit of money either, because the electronics are all connected they spend hours, sometimes days, searching for the problem, then they replace parts left, right and center, hopefully they get it right, but they don’t care, every minute in the workshop earns the dealer money, every part needed earns the manufacturer money, none of which is cheap. Because of the requirement to have the right computer programme, you can’t fix anything yourself anymore, you can’t go to Sid the Spanner under the Railway Arches, you have to go into a main dealer and get your pants pulled down every bloody time :unamused:

qite right you say nmm,i,m whit you,cheers benkku

140

"it must be cheaper and more economic in terms of reliability and maintenance costs to sort out the driver issue instead"These are your words c/f.and it shows that you understand very little of transport today.It is because of the “driver issue” that auto gear boxes and cruise controls were introduced.They are there to address that issue.As NMM so aptly put it "now they can get out of the yard"Auto gear boxes,cruise controls and all the ancillary equipement will only get better and better as time goes by,but I suppose an old dinosaur like you thinks a 13 speed fuller will be around forever.