I-shifts & other auto box attrocities

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
201

Carryfast:

Bassman:
Hi, All

We’re a long time getting away from this standing start on this hill, I don’t know how many clutches we’ve knackered , I’ve lost count!

Cheers Bassman

It’s the eggs you should be worried about.It’s catch 22 if it works no breakfast and the clutch survives and if it doesn’t it’s fried clutch and/or crushed car which we’re also going to park behind the truck but look on the bright side it’s scrambled eggs and bacon for breakfast. :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But we ain’t seeing scores of auto trucks with fried clutches littering the motorway. I’m guessing most problems with auto boxes and to be fair with most truck problems is electrical problems rather than mechanical failure. Which is frustrating as in the past most drivers could often repair or Bodge something up to get the truck home or to a garage whereas now if the computer says no your quite often screwed. But to put it in to context I’d say even though a broken down truck is less likely to make it to the garage under it’s own steam or be repaired by a driver or independent fitter on the road trucks today are more relibale than ones of years gone by.

202

Carryfast:

Tony Taylor:
I’ve also got no idea what it takes to pass a class 1today Greek,I took mine in 1972.My brother “the crow” never even took a hgv driving test,he got his by grandfather rights after driving in the army.We as a family have always been around lorries,my father was a lorry driver at one time and my uncle owned his own small company.I remember when I was a child he had Thames 4d’s and 6d’s later changed for Thames Traders.As we all know lorries were a lot different then-you had to drive them properly or suffer the consequenses.Common sense is and always has been the order of the day,and we must all adapt to new innovations or be left behind to suffer the same fate as the Dodo.(or C/F)

But in my case I’d probably get drivers like Fly Sheet applying for the job because I’m still speccing mine with an 18 speed fuller whereas someone who’s specced theirs with an auto will obviously get someone who prefers autos.Bearing in mind that we’re talking about long distance haulage not urban tipper,dust cart or bus operation in which case I’d go for a proper torque converter set up not a zb’d up manual with a computer trying to do the job of driving it. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Can corgi trucks be specified with a fuller box then?

203

ok im bored so i’ll waste a bit of my time and i’ll chuck my opinion back in ( i posted a couple of pages back and changed my mind because is pretty much pointless ) but here goe’s .

i’ve read most of what has been posted on here and i cannot understand why or how people will not take peoples opinions when they are telling you that some of these auto boxes do work and they work fine .

my everyday motor is a renault premium and has the renault version of the I-SHIFT , ive driven it from new and its an 11 plate so i know how they work and im not talking passed on cobblers from some driver i’ve overheard .

i have never not once had a problem with it that im afraid is fact like it or not its fact .

we do some heavy brick work out of some difficult places and it has performed faultless everytime , also fact .

we also do alot of farm work , up hill down hill slippy muddy farm tracks and all and it performs without any problem .

we also do the bog standard tarmac polishing that involves uphill starts down hill starts both loaded and empty and it does all those things without any issue .

i dont know how they work and to be honest i dont really care but the fact is they work even if the older driver cant accept that it works end of .
does it make mistakes ? yes it doe’s but the last thing you need to do is panic , leave it alone and it sorts itself out . we have 7 of them and i dont remember us ever having problems with any of them .

i agree that some of them are a little difficult at times but you need to know how to work with them not force them because you will confuse the hell out of them .

i have also driven actros with full auto 11plate and 12 plate and they are fine as is the scania .

i think i’ll leave it at that now it’ll give everyone the chance to tell me how wrong i am and that i cant possibly know what im talking about , i could go on but i wont .

so go on tell me im wrong .

(p.s im not a new driver ive been a class one holder for over 25yrs so ive done the fuller and twin splitter thing , jesus i just know im going to regret this )

204

kr79:

Carryfast:

Tony Taylor:
I’ve also got no idea what it takes to pass a class 1today Greek,I took mine in 1972.My brother “the crow” never even took a hgv driving test,he got his by grandfather rights after driving in the army.We as a family have always been around lorries,my father was a lorry driver at one time and my uncle owned his own small company.I remember when I was a child he had Thames 4d’s and 6d’s later changed for Thames Traders.As we all know lorries were a lot different then-you had to drive them properly or suffer the consequenses.Common sense is and always has been the order of the day,and we must all adapt to new innovations or be left behind to suffer the same fate as the Dodo.(or C/F)

But in my case I’d probably get drivers like Fly Sheet applying for the job because I’m still speccing mine with an 18 speed fuller whereas someone who’s specced theirs with an auto will obviously get someone who prefers autos.Bearing in mind that we’re talking about long distance haulage not urban tipper,dust cart or bus operation in which case I’d go for a proper torque converter set up not a zb’d up manual with a computer trying to do the job of driving it. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Can corgi trucks be specified with a fuller box then?

Cue 40 pages of utter ■■■■■■■■ about how matchbox are better :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

205

kr79:

Carryfast:

Bassman:
Hi, All

We’re a long time getting away from this standing start on this hill, I don’t know how many clutches we’ve knackered , I’ve lost count!

Cheers Bassman

It’s the eggs you should be worried about.It’s catch 22 if it works no breakfast and the clutch survives and if it doesn’t it’s fried clutch and/or crushed car which we’re also going to park behind the truck but look on the bright side it’s scrambled eggs and bacon for breakfast. :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But we ain’t seeing scores of auto trucks with fried clutches littering the motorway. I’m guessing most problems with auto boxes and to be fair with most truck problems is electrical problems rather than mechanical failure. Which is frustrating as in the past most drivers could often repair or Bodge something up to get the truck home or to a garage whereas now if the computer says no your quite often screwed. But to put it in to context I’d say even though a broken down truck is less likely to make it to the garage under it’s own steam or be repaired by a driver or independent fitter on the road trucks today are more relibale than ones of years gone by.

I don’t know why everyone wants to blame me because it’s not me who posted the topic it was fly sheet remember and then I just put in my agreement with Crow’s comments but it only seems to be me who gets all the stick for a point of view that doesn’t agree with yours . :confused: :unamused: .

But you seem to be saying just because you like the things in the zb type urban conditions which you’re lumbered with having to work in then he’s also going to be lumbered with having to use a type of box which he doesn’t need or want when he’d be a lot happier with the good old fashioned fuller on the basis of it ain’t broke and it doesn’t need fixing. :bulb: :unamused:

206

ramone:
I heard today that Maritime have gone back to manuals on their 105 xfs nobody liked the autos … Just saying

Oh no shock horror I can just imagine the arguments that must be taking place between all the drivers who wanted to go back to the manuals and the drivers that wanted to keep their autos. :smiling_imp:

Democracy in action. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

207

Tony Taylor:
I’m willing to bet that you have never even driven an automatic gear box truck.

Not unless you mean more than a few Allison torque converter type ones.Which were more than enough for me thanks.

208

bowser:
ok im bored so i’ll waste a bit of my time and i’ll chuck my opinion back in ( i posted a couple of pages back and changed my mind because is pretty much pointless ) but here goe’s .

i’ve read most of what has been posted on here and i cannot understand why or how people will not take peoples opinions when they are telling you that some of these auto boxes do work and they work fine .

i agree that some of them are a little difficult at times but you need to know how to work with them not force them because you will confuse the hell out of them .

Nuf said. :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

209

Carryfast:
Nuf said. :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

If only you would practice what you preach :laughing:

So I never mentioned input shaft speed sensors :open_mouth: Well slap my legs and call me Roger :unamused:

If that was the reason for you posts following my glaring omission, surely your next post on the subject should’ve been “If only there was an input shaft speed sensor, the automated manual transmissions would be almost perfect” as we know, it wasn’t, so that leads me to believe that you speak from your chocolate starfish :open_mouth:

However, for all your madness, you’re provoking another healthy debate, so keep it up :laughing:

210

If you read through my posts I acknowdge that for long distance work the advantage of an automated manual is less clear cut than a manual but the fact is in Europe the auto is here to stay and more than likely in the USA in Canada before long. The fact is trucks evolve like all technology. Older drivers in the 40s probaly though these young bucks don’t know there born when the starting handle went west. Older drivers probaly thought the young drivers of the 70s had it easy with sleeper cabs and something you didn’t need to have a dozen blankets and army overcoats to deaden the sound of the engine. In 30 years time there will be probaly today’s young drivers saying its gone to the dogs since the computer controlled reversing the lorry or whatever. Things change that’s life.

211

The thing with the autos is that they arent really an auto,they are a manual constant mesh gearbox with a very clever computer that never crunches a gear imho the problem is they have been introduced without some of the problems ironed out and in the case of the zf they work differently in each different make of lorry.If ZF made lorries maybe the system would be as good as the i shift but unfortunately they arent.I dont know which category i fit in im not an old hand and im not a young novice ( 23 years on class 1)and im all for new technology but i just dont see how they improve on a manual set up.I had a MAN on hire a 6 x4 unit on landfill work running at top weight and it was very similar to the Daf problem wise .The delay with the throttle response was 1 thing,setting of feathering the throttle and it would skip through the gears ,great,then stop at the next set of lights set of again feathering the throttle and it would hold onto a gear until i changed up manually i had it for around a month and was glad to see the back of it,it was brand new by the way ,you couldnt use the exhaust brake in auto on motorways as the thing dropped a gear or two and on tips ,well thats where i should have left it ,i respect what others say that like these boxes but they are not for me ,the i shift is a different kettle of fish though and as mentioned on here the Renault version is pretty good too i think due to the whole system being designed and built for that vehicle i.e volvo engine and box Renault badge ,ive driven the opticruise with the clutch pedal and thought they were ok but again needed to be prompted to change up at times .I only wish i was as good at changing gear with a constant mesh box as that computer is,but give me a manual everytime .

212

newmercman:
So I never mentioned input shaft speed sensors :open_mouth: Well slap my legs and call me Roger :unamused:

If that was the reason for you posts following my glaring omission, surely your next post on the subject should’ve been “If only there was an input shaft speed sensor, the automated manual transmissions would be almost perfect” as we know, it wasn’t, so that leads me to believe that you speak from your chocolate starfish :open_mouth:

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I was only thinking along the lines there doesn’t seem to be an input shaft speed sensor :question: so there’s no way the thing can determine the difference between engine speed and input shaft speed hence the amount of slippage and therefore heat being applied at the clutch face.All seems simple enough to me and without it would seem to me to make the thing a lot less than perfect.Which is what I said after you’d provided a description of the workings. :bulb:

But according to billybigrig there is one and it can tell the amount of clutch slippage in which case then surely all it would need to do in the event of too much is do as I said in applying the brakes and then de clutch it just like an average driver would do.Simples problem solved not perfect but just average because a better than average driver would never get those parameters of engine speed and input shaft speed wrong enough for long enough to ever create a clutch overheating issue. :bulb: :wink:

213

ramone:
The thing with the autos is that they arent really an auto,they are a manual constant mesh gearbox with a very clever computer that never crunches a gear imho the problem is they have been introduced without some of the problems ironed out and in the case of the zf they work differently in each different make of lorry.If ZF made lorries maybe the system would be as good as the i shift but unfortunately they arent.I dont know which category i fit in im not an old hand and im not a young novice ( 23 years on class 1)and i`m all for new technology but i just dont see how they improve on a manual set up.I had a MAN on hire a 6 x4 unit on landfill work running at top weight and it was very similar to the Daf problem wise .The delay with the throttle response was 1 thing,setting of feathering the throttle and it would skip through the gears ,great,then stop at the next set of lights set of again feathering the throttle and it would hold onto a gear until i changed up manually i had it for around a month and was glad to see the back of it,it was brand new by the way ,

you couldnt use the exhaust brake in auto on motorways as the thing dropped a gear or two

Because it’s trying to offer maximum engine braking to slow you. I agree, that’s not the best setup idea, the MAN I had and the DAF both did this, cured by sticking it in manual

and on tips ,well thats where i should have left it ,i respect what others say that like these boxes but they are not for me ,the i shift is a different kettle of fish though and as mentioned on here the Renault version is pretty good too i think due to the whole system being designed and built for that vehicle i.e volvo engine and box Renault badge ,i`ve driven the opticruise with the clutch pedal and thought they were ok but again needed to be prompted to change up at times .I only wish i was as good at changing gear with a constant mesh box as that computer is,but give me a manual everytime .

214

Clutch wear is not a factor in the whole equation, the AMTs will actually prevent it :open_mouth:

The problem with them is the software, it does not have the ability to see, so it has shortcomings in some situations, other than that, they do a very good job :open_mouth:

The thing is, they’re not necessary in certain jobs, long haul is one of them and that’s a fact :wink:

215

billybigrig:

ramone:
The thing with the autos is that they arent really an auto,they are a manual constant mesh gearbox with a very clever computer that never crunches a gear imho the problem is they have been introduced without some of the problems ironed out and in the case of the zf they work differently in each different make of lorry.If ZF made lorries maybe the system would be as good as the i shift but unfortunately they arent.I dont know which category i fit in im not an old hand and im not a young novice ( 23 years on class 1)and i`m all for new technology but i just dont see how they improve on a manual set up.I had a MAN on hire a 6 x4 unit on landfill work running at top weight and it was very similar to the Daf problem wise .The delay with the throttle response was 1 thing,setting of feathering the throttle and it would skip through the gears ,great,then stop at the next set of lights set of again feathering the throttle and it would hold onto a gear until i changed up manually i had it for around a month and was glad to see the back of it,it was brand new by the way ,

you couldnt use the exhaust brake in auto on motorways as the thing dropped a gear or two

Because it’s trying to offer maximum engine braking to slow you. I agree, that’s not the best setup idea, the MAN I had and the DAF both did this, cured by sticking it in manual

and on tips ,well thats where i should have left it ,i respect what others say that like these boxes but they are not for me ,the i shift is a different kettle of fish though and as mentioned on here the Renault version is pretty good too i think due to the whole system being designed and built for that vehicle i.e volvo engine and box Renault badge ,i`ve driven the opticruise with the clutch pedal and thought they were ok but again needed to be prompted to change up at times .I only wish i was as good at changing gear with a constant mesh box as that computer is,but give me a manual everytime .

But thats the point im trying to make Billy whats the point of having an “auto” if you keep having to override it,not just the exhaust brake situation but having to change up for it because it cant decide what gear it wants to be in .I came down a hill fully freighted and started braking for a roundabout one day then started to accelerate again when it was clear and the thing was stuck in the approach gear it wouldn`t go up or down i blocked the roundabout.I personally think they have introduced them far too soon with the exception of the i shift i know they have been around for some time now but they are far from ideal,i blame those germans they started it with the EPS but ironically i didnt mind that box

216

Ironically Mercedes only devolped EPS as the shift loads were so heavy on its synchro box. That’s a very valid point about I shift maybe been better than the zf as its a vertically integrated product rather than zf who sell to man daf and iveco.

217

Even more ironic is that EPS first went on the ZF EcoSplit monstrosity of a gearbox, the second generation PowerLiners had the G4 Merc box that was designed with EPS in mind from the start :wink:

218

ramone:

billybigrig:

ramone:
The thing with the autos is that they arent really an auto,they are a manual constant mesh gearbox with a very clever computer that never crunches a gear imho the problem is they have been introduced without some of the problems ironed out and in the case of the zf they work differently in each different make of lorry.If ZF made lorries maybe the system would be as good as the i shift but unfortunately they arent.I dont know which category i fit in im not an old hand and im not a young novice ( 23 years on class 1)and i`m all for new technology but i just dont see how they improve on a manual set up.I had a MAN on hire a 6 x4 unit on landfill work running at top weight and it was very similar to the Daf problem wise .The delay with the throttle response was 1 thing,setting of feathering the throttle and it would skip through the gears ,great,then stop at the next set of lights set of again feathering the throttle and it would hold onto a gear until i changed up manually i had it for around a month and was glad to see the back of it,it was brand new by the way ,

you couldnt use the exhaust brake in auto on motorways as the thing dropped a gear or two

Because it’s trying to offer maximum engine braking to slow you. I agree, that’s not the best setup idea, the MAN I had and the DAF both did this, cured by sticking it in manual

and on tips ,well thats where i should have left it ,i respect what others say that like these boxes but they are not for me ,the i shift is a different kettle of fish though and as mentioned on here the Renault version is pretty good too i think due to the whole system being designed and built for that vehicle i.e volvo engine and box Renault badge ,i`ve driven the opticruise with the clutch pedal and thought they were ok but again needed to be prompted to change up at times .I only wish i was as good at changing gear with a constant mesh box as that computer is,but give me a manual everytime .

But thats the point im trying to make Billy whats the point of having an “auto” if you keep having to override it,not just the exhaust brake situation but having to change up for it because it cant decide what gear it wants to be in .I came down a hill fully freighted and started braking for a roundabout one day then started to accelerate again when it was clear and the thing was stuck in the approach gear it wouldn`t go up or down i blocked the roundabout.I personally think they have introduced them far too soon with the exception of the i shift i know they have been around for some time now but they are far from ideal,i blame those germans they started it with the EPS but ironically i didnt mind that box

But that’s the point fella it’s not automatic it’s automated :wink:

Verb: Convert (a process or facility) to largely automatic operation.

Even “automatic” cars usually retain the ability to manually select a gear.

Let it do it’s thing and sort it yourself when it needs it at a greatly reduced physical effort :smiley:
It cannot see what you can so that’s when you correct it. Although it appears the new Volvos i-see is to try and help in this respect volvogroup.com/group/global/ … uage=en-gb

219

billybigrig:

ramone:

billybigrig:

ramone:
The thing with the autos is that they arent really an auto,they are a manual constant mesh gearbox with a very clever computer that never crunches a gear imho the problem is they have been introduced without some of the problems ironed out and in the case of the zf they work differently in each different make of lorry.If ZF made lorries maybe the system would be as good as the i shift but unfortunately they arent.I dont know which category i fit in im not an old hand and im not a young novice ( 23 years on class 1)and i`m all for new technology but i just dont see how they improve on a manual set up.I had a MAN on hire a 6 x4 unit on landfill work running at top weight and it was very similar to the Daf problem wise .The delay with the throttle response was 1 thing,setting of feathering the throttle and it would skip through the gears ,great,then stop at the next set of lights set of again feathering the throttle and it would hold onto a gear until i changed up manually i had it for around a month and was glad to see the back of it,it was brand new by the way ,

you couldnt use the exhaust brake in auto on motorways as the thing dropped a gear or two

Because it’s trying to offer maximum engine braking to slow you. I agree, that’s not the best setup idea, the MAN I had and the DAF both did this, cured by sticking it in manual

and on tips ,well thats where i should have left it ,i respect what others say that like these boxes but they are not for me ,the i shift is a different kettle of fish though and as mentioned on here the Renault version is pretty good too i think due to the whole system being designed and built for that vehicle i.e volvo engine and box Renault badge ,i`ve driven the opticruise with the clutch pedal and thought they were ok but again needed to be prompted to change up at times .I only wish i was as good at changing gear with a constant mesh box as that computer is,but give me a manual everytime .

But thats the point im trying to make Billy whats the point of having an “auto” if you keep having to override it,not just the exhaust brake situation but having to change up for it because it cant decide what gear it wants to be in .I came down a hill fully freighted and started braking for a roundabout one day then started to accelerate again when it was clear and the thing was stuck in the approach gear it wouldn`t go up or down i blocked the roundabout.I personally think they have introduced them far too soon with the exception of the i shift i know they have been around for some time now but they are far from ideal,i blame those germans they started it with the EPS but ironically i didnt mind that box

But that’s the point fella it’s not automatic it’s automated :wink:

Verb: Convert (a process or facility) to largely automatic operation.

Even “automatic” cars usually retain the ability to manually select a gear.

Let it do it’s thing and sort it yourself when it needs it at a greatly reduced physical effort :smiley:
It cannot see what you can so that’s when you correct it. Although it appears the new Volvos i-see is to try and help in this respect volvogroup.com/group/global/ … uage=en-gb

With respect ,why dont we or i should i say,have the same problems with the i shift has i do with the ZF,i mentioned earlier that Maritime have gone back to manuals on their Dafs but are sticking with the i shift on the Volvos, i think a very valid point was made a few days back that they are so complex now that you have to take them back to the dealer for fault finding at great expense,by the way i drive a S60 geartronic and never use it in manual i dont see the point it makes seamless changes all by itself

220

ramone:
With respect ,why dont we or i should i say,have the same problems with the i shift has i do with the ZF,i mentioned earlier that Maritime have gone back to manuals on their Dafs but are sticking with the i shift on the Volvos, i think a very valid point was made a few days back that they are so complex now that you have to take them back to the dealer for fault finding at great expense,by the way i drive a S60 geartronic and never use it in manual i dont see the point it makes seamless changes all by itself

The I-shift is the best one perhaps because, as someone else said, it’s an in house jobby not a bolt on ■■ As little a problem as I had with the DAF and MAN they’re not a patch on my I-shift. I have had a wee twiddle about in Axor with the 12 speed auto and that’s not quite up to I shift but ■■■■ close.

All of the above have pluses and minuses for us from a comfort, practicality and operational point of view.

I have the only I shift and pull faces if I have to go out in anyone elses :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I will get to choose it’s replacement (foisted upon me by LEZ, MAUT and there ugly cousins) which is in the next 6 months. They were nervous about it being all new fangled and expensive to fix with us being a small outfit but it’s 8 years old and just keeps on ticking (99% certain it’s on it’s original clutch). Interestingly the previous driver in it had poor fuel figures and the boss could do no better. The previous driver taught him how to drive it :unamused: :unamused:

I’ve tutored him properly now and although he can’t match me he’s 1.5 mpg up personally and I’m a shade under 2.8 :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: (we run fairly light so not as impressive as it sounds) :blush:

I’m loathed to part with it. Euro 3 no adblue nonsense, analogue tacho, I shift and never let me down :imp: :imp: :imp: