I DON T KNOW IF POA EXTENDS WORKING TIME
a mate said use poa extends working time at end of week in your bank.
all I know is u have to be told in advance how long you have to wait to use poa and wait till your breaks done as poa also resets driving time and you can only work 60 hours max after breaks rtd
I use break a lot as if I’m waiting for a crance get 3 hour break then 9 hour break on night gives me an extra 15 hour day if needed don t know what he s on about poa extends your weekly hours
Correct me if I’m wrong but this is how I see poa
Eg
If your were to start at 6am you would have to have a 45 min break at 12 providing you haven’t run out of driving time first.
If for example you were to put it on poa for 10 mins at 8 am you then wouldn’t need to take a working time break until 1210.
If you put it on poa and it goes over 15 minutes then it registers as a break same with the 30 minute break or a full 45.
Poa is for when someone says they don’t know how long they could be to come and unload you or whatever. So they could be 2 min or 2 hours.
WTD (generally not been enforced by authorities) states that working time does not include POA or breaks
Total shift time is still controlled by the daily rest requirements
The way I see it is POA’s were basically introduced to so employers didn’t have to abide by the 48hours average working week, in other words we’ll make a raft of rules and record keeping to look like we care about workers welfare, but it’ll have no effect on the hours drivers work.
In terms of WTD, time on POA isn’t included in your working time calculations, but neither is time on break/rest,
POA does nothing to extend the hours you allowed to work under EU drivers Hours regs.
Slim91:
Poa is for when someone says they don’t know how long they could be to come and unload you or whatever. So they could be 2 min or 2 hours.
Not true.
The textbook definition of POA is waiting time where the length of the wait is known in advance. So if you arrive on a site at 12pm & they say “your going on a bay at 2pm”, then that’s 2 hours you know you can chill out for. It basically an unofficial rest period. If you have no idea how long you’ll be sat around for & thus can’t properly switch off & relax, it should be booked as Other Work.
Obviously, it’s impossible for the authorities to ascertain whether you knew your waiting time in advance, so POA is generally just utilised by hauliers wanting to dodge the WTD. Some expect you to book POA for waiting time in the queue at a gatehouse, for example…
As POA mucks up the driving time breaks in the tacho I recommend not using it unless the company deducts pay for all recorded break time
ROG:
As POA mucks up the driving time breaks in the tacho I recommend not using it unless the company deducts pay for all recorded break time
^This^
POA is the most pointless, unregulated regulation within the industry. I’d love to see it abolished. There’s no situation where you can record POA, that you can’t record a break
OP, following on from your previous post where you had 3 reduced weekly rests in a row, I really do think you need to brush up on your regs, and I don’t mean listen to mates that may or may not be right.
The official ones are pretty dry and maybe hard to digest for some, so have a look at this thread…
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=134561
(Muckles quick guide)
Evil8Beezle:
OP, following on from your previous post where you had 3 reduced weekly rests in a row, I really do think you need to brush up on your regs, and I don’t mean listen to mates that may or may not be right.The official ones are pretty dry and maybe hard to digest for some, so have a look at this thread…
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=134561
(Muckles quick guide)
If you are having trouble getting to grips with them by reading then I am prepared to PM you my number to do it verbally
I have already done this for one member who has a condition where they are not able to fully comprehend rules in written form
ROG:
I have already done this for one member who has a condition where they are not able to fully comprehend rules in written form
I wonder who that could be?
peirre:
ROG:
I have already done this for one member who has a condition where they are not able to fully comprehend rules in written formI wonder who that could be?
Shhh, Robroy doesn’t like to talk about it! 
Neither break nor POA count as working time so the affect on your working time is exactly the same whichever you use.
As you already use break a lot presumably you get paid for breaks, so keep on using break instead of POA because as you’ve already pointed out POA has some drawbacks that break doesn’t have.
OVLOV JAY:
ROG:
As POA mucks up the driving time breaks in the tacho I recommend not using it unless the company deducts pay for all recorded break time^This^
POA is the most pointless, unregulated regulation within the industry. I’d love to see it abolished. There’s no situation where you can record POA, that you can’t record a break
Thing is it is regulated, my employer regulates my working time and i am sure there are plenty of other firms regulating their drivers working time.
I also don’t bother with POA or agree with and my tacho has only ever recorded POA by mistake a few times but soon changed back to break, my current and last firm paid breaks so no need for using it as break does the same job to give you the option to extend your working week.
If i ever did happen to but i doubt i ever will work for a company that deducts all break periods none driving breaks would then be recorded as other work.
Of course POA extends working time - off book regardless of if you get paid for it or not.
That’s why drivers not supposed to work more than a 48 hour week under WTD still end up doing 60-80 hours. If you work six shifts in a week, and three of them are maxed out at 15 hours - it would be very hard indeed to “Keep under 48 hours for the week” unless you put all that 3-4 hours waiting time, stuck on a bay or in a tip queue - down as “POA” so your 15 hours on duty that day only counts as 10-11 hours towards your working week WTD 48 hour limit.
If I’m wrong - then let’s hear from those full time drivers who got stuck in traffic on a Wednesday and then got stood down for the rest of the week, because they didn’t have enough aggregate out of 48 hours left… 
The system gets to interpret what the loosely-worded (for their own good reason!) EU laws dictates to us. They are a guideline when we workers want restitution - but a line in the sand when it comes to dishing out overtime. Drivers working 60-80 hours a week would be taking home a grand a week otherwise. Think about it.
Agency drivers won’t because the agencies have the unlimited hours relaxations in place only at the lowest paying clients. It makes sense for shifts to be maxed out at 15 hours when you get a “right through” rate. If you get overtime at the agency client “after 8 hours” - you’ll be planned for 9 hours every day, which with the hour unpaid taken off means no overtime ever.
weeto:
OVLOV JAY:
ROG:
As POA mucks up the driving time breaks in the tacho I recommend not using it unless the company deducts pay for all recorded break time^This^
POA is the most pointless, unregulated regulation within the industry. I’d love to see it abolished. There’s no situation where you can record POA, that you can’t record a break
Thing is it is regulated, my employer regulates my working time and i am sure there are plenty of other firms regulating their drivers working time.
I also don’t bother with POA or agree with and my tacho has only ever recorded POA by mistake a few times but soon changed back to break, my current and last firm paid breaks so no need for using it as break does the same job to give you the option to extend your working week.
If i ever did happen to but i doubt i ever will work for a company that deducts all break periods none driving breaks would then be recorded as other work.
I meant unregulated from an official bodies point of view. I’m not suggesting companies don’t regulate the wtd. Mine does, but don’t care for the use of POA
OVLOV JAY:
weeto:
OVLOV JAY:
ROG:
As POA mucks up the driving time breaks in the tacho I recommend not using it unless the company deducts pay for all recorded break time^This^
POA is the most pointless, unregulated regulation within the industry. I’d love to see it abolished. There’s no situation where you can record POA, that you can’t record a break
Thing is it is regulated, my employer regulates my working time and i am sure there are plenty of other firms regulating their drivers working time.
I also don’t bother with POA or agree with and my tacho has only ever recorded POA by mistake a few times but soon changed back to break, my current and last firm paid breaks so no need for using it as break does the same job to give you the option to extend your working week.
If i ever did happen to but i doubt i ever will work for a company that deducts all break periods none driving breaks would then be recorded as other work.I meant unregulated from an official bodies point of view. I’m not suggesting companies don’t regulate the wtd. Mine does, but don’t care for the use of POA
Same with ours, they just tell us to use break & I only use it in circumstances where it’s feasible to set an alarm and go to sleep.
I heard a rumour from an ex-Stobart driver that certain driver trainers have encouraged drivers to use POA in traffic 
Anyone able to back this up?
rob22888:
OVLOV JAY:
weeto:
OVLOV JAY:
ROG:
As POA mucks up the driving time breaks in the tacho I recommend not using it unless the company deducts pay for all recorded break time^This^
POA is the most pointless, unregulated regulation within the industry. I’d love to see it abolished. There’s no situation where you can record POA, that you can’t record a break
Thing is it is regulated, my employer regulates my working time and i am sure there are plenty of other firms regulating their drivers working time.
I also don’t bother with POA or agree with and my tacho has only ever recorded POA by mistake a few times but soon changed back to break, my current and last firm paid breaks so no need for using it as break does the same job to give you the option to extend your working week.
If i ever did happen to but i doubt i ever will work for a company that deducts all break periods none driving breaks would then be recorded as other work.I meant unregulated from an official bodies point of view. I’m not suggesting companies don’t regulate the wtd. Mine does, but don’t care for the use of POA
Same with ours, they just tell us to use break & I only use it in circumstances where it’s feasible to set an alarm and go to sleep.
I heard a rumour from an ex-Stobart driver that certain driver trainers have encouraged drivers to use POA in traffic
My instructor who I did class 1 training with said the same about Stobarts asking drivers to do that . He used to work for them but soon left.
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Don’t bother with it never use it 
ROG:
As POA mucks up the driving time breaks in the tacho I recommend not using it unless the company deducts pay for all recorded break time
This ^^^^^ never use POA its a PITA,far as a day goes I’m either driving working or asleep lol nowt in between.
I can confirm that Stobart trainers have encouraged drivers to put the tacho on POA when stationary in traffic.