This may be old news to some, but I found it interesting. After a discussion elsewhere about access to toilets etc at customer facilities, I wrote to the HSE info line to ask what the legal position is. This is their reply ( interestingly the customer has NO duty of care to the driver under HSE law):
Thank you for contacting HSE.
Companies to whom a delivery driver visits during the course of their work are not obliged under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to allow them to use their facilities. This is because they are not the driver’s employer and would not therefore have a duty of care for them under that Act or its associated regulations.
If a driver has a regular stop at a particular premises it would not be unreasonable for the driver’s employer to arrange an informal agreement with that company for their staff to use their welfare facilities, but this is not a legal requirement. I would recommend you have a sensible conversation with your employer and the company you deliver to in order to establish the facts, you may be able to come to an agreement.
Welfare stops is an issue faced by many employees who drive large vehicles for a living and it is recognised that access to some parking areas may be limiting. However there are many service areas along the roadside which have welfare facilities freely available to all road users.
The legislation that we enforce does place a duty on all employers to provide adequate welfare facilities for their workers, insofar as is reasonably practicable, and we would deem it reasonable that those who drive for a living use publicly accessible toilet facilities.
Kind Regards
Paula Stam
Advice Officer
HSE
Merton Road
Bootle
Liverpool L20 7HS
scaniason:
This may be old news to some, but I found it interesting. After a discussion elsewhere about access to toilets etc at customer facilities, I wrote to the HSE info line to ask what the legal position is. This is their reply ( interestingly the customer has NO duty of care to the driver under HSE law):
Thank you for contacting HSE.
Companies to whom a delivery driver visits during the course of their work are not obliged under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to allow them to use their facilities. This is because they are not the driver’s employer and would not therefore have a duty of care for them under that Act or its associated regulations.
If a driver has a regular stop at a particular premises it would not be unreasonable for the driver’s employer to arrange an informal agreement with that company for their staff to use their welfare facilities, but this is not a legal requirement. I would recommend you have a sensible conversation with your employer and the company you deliver to in order to establish the facts, you may be able to come to an agreement.
Welfare stops is an issue faced by many employees who drive large vehicles for a living and it is recognised that access to some parking areas may be limiting. However there are many service areas along the roadside which have welfare facilities freely available to all road users.
The legislation that we enforce does place a duty on all employers to provide adequate welfare facilities for their workers, insofar as is reasonably practicable, and we would deem it reasonable that those who drive for a living use publicly accessible toilet facilities.
Kind Regards
Paula Stam
Advice Officer
HSE
Merton Road
Bootle
Liverpool L20 7HS
Never been refused use of toilets before. You ask kindly, you should never have a problem. But if it ever did happen, and I was on the verge of peeing my pants, I wouldn’t hesitate to ■■■■ up against their wall.
If you employ anyone (however short the period) you must ‘so far as is reasonably
practicable’, provide adequate and appropriate welfare facilities for them while they
are at work. This means you must provide such facilities unless it is clearly
unreasonable in terms of time, trouble, cost and physical difficulty.
‘Welfare facilities’ are those that are necessary for the well-being of your
employees, such as washing, toilet, rest and changing facilities, and somewhere
clean to eat and drink during breaks.
That term includes visiting persons as you are deemed as a temp /short term employee be means of the contract to deliver of collect goods or services …
Nick2008 - that was always my understanding, and was what I was expecting the HSE to say. To say I was gobsmacked that the HSE representative would state that there is no duty if care from a customer is an understatement. So if this is followed to its logical conclusion, if you’re killed by a customers failings, tough ■■■■, they don’t have a problem, your gaffer does!
I wonder what would happen if, during the course if the subsequent investigation, you refused to allow the HSE bid to use the karzey as well?
(1) In these Regulations, unless the context otherwise requires–
“new workplace” means a workplace used for the first time as a workplace after31st December 1992;
“public road” means (in England and Wales) a highway maintainable at public expense within the meaning of section 329 of the Highways Act 1980(1) and (in Scotland) a public road within the meaning assigned to that term by section 151 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984(2);
“traffic route” means a route for pedestrian traffic, vehicles or both and includes any stairs, staircase, fixed ladder, doorway, gateway, loading bay or ramp;
“workplace” means, subject to paragraph (2), any premises or part of premises which are not domestic premises and are made available to any person as a place of work, and includes–
(a)
any place within the premises to which such person has access while at work; and
(b)
any room, lobby, corridor, staircase, road or other place used as a means of access to or egress from that place of work or where facilities are provided for use in connection with the place of work other than a public road;
but shall not include a modification, an extension or a conversion of any of the above until such modification, extension or conversion is completed.
(2) Any reference in these Regulations, except in paragraph (1), to a modification, an extension or a conversion is a reference, as the case may be, to a modification, an extension or a conversion of a workplace started after 31st December 1992.
(3) Any requirement that anything done or provided in pursuance of these Regulations shall be suitable shall be construed to include a requirement that it is suitable for any person in respect of whom such thing is so done or provided.
(4) Any reference in these Regulations to–
(a)
a numbered regulation or Schedule is a reference to the regulation in or Schedule to these Regulations so numbered; and
.
(b)
a numbered paragraph is a reference to the paragraph so numbered in the regulation in which the reference appears.
.
Many bakeries I deliver to have non existant h&s rules. Quite often they think it’s fine for us to climb on top of the flour to stack it higher (most of us refuse save one jobsworth). Climbing rotten loft ladders, up and down ancient cellar stairs and all we get told is that “we’re covered by insurance…” Thankyou but I don’t want a broken leg.
Well if a company won’t let a driver use it’s toilet I bet that at one time a driver has ■■■■ everywhere and left a mess.
Bad drivers ruin it for good drivers I’m afraid.
nick2008:
That term includes visiting persons as you are deemed as a temp /short term employee be means of the contract to deliver of collect goods or services …
No they’re not. They’re only employees of the delivery location if they’re paid by that company.
Companies to whom a delivery driver visits during the course of their work are not obliged under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to allow them to use their facilities. This is because they are not the driver’s employer and would not therefore have a duty of care for them under that Act or its associated regulations.
If they have no duty of care, can you tell them to stick their “Hi_Viz, No shorts, must wear a pink Tutu (made that one up) on our site”, where the sun does not shine…
Not to sure about that. Who is Geoff Dunning? That reads like some ones opinion rather than an official RHA statement. And how much faith do you have in the RHA, anyway?
nick2008:
That term includes visiting persons as you are deemed as a temp /short term employee be means of the contract to deliver of collect goods or services …
No they’re not. They’re only employees of the delivery location if they’re paid by that company.
This must have changed in that case, as previously any visitor to your premises in the course of their work had to be accorded the same H&S standards as permanent, direct employees of the company. Be they sub-contractors on a building site, a sparky changing a lamp, or the sub-contract cleaner washing the floor.
Sounds about right.If the postman banged on your door when delivering a letter and asked to use your kettle what would you say?
He is doing a delivery as well.
Why the hell should a delivery point supply you with anything.
Very nice if they do but you know that before very long some [zb] will abuse it and spoil it for every body else.
Bking:
Sounds about right.If the postman banged on your door when delivering a letter and asked to use your kettle what would you say?
He is doing a delivery as well.
Why the hell should a delivery point supply you with anything.
Very nice if they do but you know that before very long some [zb] will abuse it and spoil it for every body else.
Because a residence is excluded if you read through the regulations 1992
nick2008:
That term includes visiting persons as you are deemed as a temp /short term employee be means of the contract to deliver of collect goods or services …
No they’re not. They’re only employees of the delivery location if they’re paid by that company.
that’s why you take the superseded 1992 welfare act and ignore the 1974 act the new one puts the old one in the bin much like old tacho regs
Bking:
Sounds about right.If the postman banged on your door when delivering a letter and asked to use your kettle what would you say?
He is doing a delivery as well.
Why the hell should a delivery point supply you with anything.
Very nice if they do but you know that before very long some [zb] will abuse it and spoil it for every body else.
Because a residence is excluded if you read through the regulations 1992
And what if he is delivering to a garage or an office?
I’m amazed you’re not entitled to use their toilet but I suppose it kinda makes sense. I think it just rarely comes up though, gotta be a total C to refuse someone your toilet.
the new one puts the old one in the bin much like old tacho regs