I am still in transport,at 63 years old, drove lorries all my workin life,till 12 years ago. I now work in a transport office for a firm who deliver ther own goods with 20 HGVs.
It was only when I started to take an interest in this forum that I realised that the 40 hour week with time and a half after 8 hours per day & Saturday,with double time for Sunday,had all but disappeared. From starting work,it was obvious the we would never have as high a basic rate as other “comparable” jobs,because the employers need you to work over.
I am not looking to start “World war three” with this question,tales of kids down mines,capitalists vesus socialists,political point scoring etc.
As the title says, how , when & why did this pay structure disappear ? If the answer is obvious, and I am just naive…then so be it…
Regards John.
old 67:
I am still in transport,at 63 years old, drove lorries all my workin life,till 12 years ago. I now work in a transport office for a firm who deliver ther own goods with 20 HGVs.
It was only when I started to take an interest in this forum that I realised that the 40 hour week with time and a half after 8 hours per day & Saturday,with double time for Sunday,had all but disappeared. From starting work,it was obvious the we would never have as high a basic rate as other “comparable” jobs,because the employers need you to work over.
I am not looking to start “World war three” with this question,tales of kids down mines,capitalists vesus socialists,political point scoring etc.
As the title says, how , when & why did this pay structure disappear ? If the answer is obvious, and I am just naive…then so be it…
Regards John.
I’d say they started disappearing in Permanent jobs before I got my HGV licence (5yrs), and in agency approx 3 years ago.
Reason: Because they can… Why pay more if you don’t have to.
If you read any of the ‘Fuel Tanker Strike’ threads, you’ll see why. Most drivers don’t give a ■■■■ about other drivers and the, “I’m alright Jack” culture is all prevalent.
A surprising amount of drivers are happy with a lower rate if they get a nice truck. Until drivers stick together and use the power we could have, it’s only going to get worse.
They haven’t disappeared, time and half after 39 hours, time and half saturday, double time sunday where I work.
Was told that Drivers with larger companies got lump sums years ago to give up certain conditions like o/t rates and extra holidays.
Think when buses where council run they did this and HGV companies latched onto the idea.
Some companies who dont operate different shift patterns will still have it as paying enhanced rates wouldnt suit them.
They get around it by saying 48-50 hours before you get o/t rates, its a bloody scam, why is another workers spare time more important than mine.
Got companies paying £7.00 odds an hour doing it now.
My old place they didn’t have it and my new place they ain’t got it either.
It’s kind of sad as years ago that’s how alot of people got a big wage by working overtime and milking it nowadays it’s near impossible to bring a wage packet home the same with them old figures and hours
I get time and a half after 8 hrs each day, time and a half Saturday (double after 5hrs) and double time Sunday. Paid a min 50hr week (holidays too), I only work an average of 37hrs now 
. I’ve been there 35yrs and have kept those terms from day 1, in recent years new starters have different agreements , when or if it alters for me I’ll be hanging my boots up .
We still get time and a half after 9 hours, double for Sunday’s,bank hols too with a days pay in lieu not bad these days
For me, flat rate, 20, 40 or 60 hours, days or nights 
Paul
MikeCunn:
If you read any of the ‘Fuel Tanker Strike’ threads, you’ll see why. Most drivers don’t give a [zb] about other drivers and the, “I’m alright Jack” culture is all prevalent.
A surprising amount of drivers are happy with a lower rate if they get a nice truck. Until drivers stick together and use the power we could have, it’s only going to get worse.
Could not agree more,well said.
Fortunately i never did see it happen, and always managed to earn proper rates following some investement on scabby firms to learn the trades, in more recent years on the cars by various bonus payments, which still have enhanced rates for weekend working.
I’m currently on salary which takes into account shift payments, as i work weekends as part of my pattern i earn more than those who work weekdays only, that should apply to everyone and not the miserable amount i noticed the green truck brigade were paying their staff.
There is a common thread here though, every properly paid job i’ve had has been unionised, with correctly negotiated benefits gained over the years.
The jobs which have gone west in general are not unionised in a big way, or maybe those that are and have voted the wrong shop stewards or drivers reps in, those easily bought for example…seen that happen.
Alone and divided by petty jealousies drivers are easily picked off, only by sticking together and using fair collective (not necessarily militant, common sense is needed and a good union moderates its more unreasonable members too) bargaining will drivers better their lot.
Mind you drivers should learn not to take the mickey, those that do annoy me more than companies who abuse their staff.
I refer to those on good jobs who are either salaried or have proper sick pay schemes…despite all that has happened in the country some still have to take the ■■■■, milking sickness and using claimsRus for breaking a finger nail…the few jobs that still pay sickness won’t for much longer whilst idiots insist on taking the P.
I’ve mentioned this point several times, i still believe its true but others don’t agree, and i’m not finger pointing as we all share some responsibility for this…
The job has got too easy in recent years, many moons ago you had to be truck driver to drive a truck and especially to (un)load (often by hand), secure and weatherproof the various different goods we carried.
The old way of doing it was hard and dirty work, and the trucks themselves needed skill and muscle to drive.
This is no longer the case in the vast majority of cases, so the job has attracted a different type of person purely chauffers, often those without Diesel running through the veins, the job became oversubscribed by the unskilled and sometimes those totally unsuited to the job, who wouldn’t have been interested or employable in the previous era.
That didn’t matter because the skill needed for job wasn’t quite the same any more, where it took years to learn the ropes became condensed into weeks instead.
Jobs that require certain skills or the ability to cope are still well paid in most cases.
Oversubscribing meant too many licence holders chasing too few jobs, some companies saw a good way to recruit and bought flash tackle, certain drivers flocking to get there as a result.
For an example i was on Kwik Save at one time, an excellent job, proper rates, food cages and freezer/chiller doors to shift, nothing too strenuous, but most of the shops were pokey places in awkward sites, needed some fair driving skills to get into some of the shops, and the trucks were all little day cabs…no glory involved there though the little motors were perfect for the job, you wouldn’t have got in half the shops with a bloody great tractor festooned with curtains and spoilers.
Result being no glory boys wanted the job, ridiculed it sometimes, which suited us down to the ground because the job didn’t get carved up and the wages stayed good till the end when Somerfield took over and the job like so many buggered.
All that is only my opinion and no doubt others will disagree.
I get the feeling and it is only a feeling that it might go full circle, i believe the car transporters for example will run short of good drivers in a few years as the average age is too high for the hard work involved, and one thing it aint is an old mans job and so far none of us is getting any younger…i’m out of it and will not go back no matter how much i’m offered.
I hope such things will happen in the general and other haulage side of things too, knock on effects etc, well here’s hoping, drivers could do their bit by sticking together and making themselves attractive to employers too, the two are not mutually exclusive.
I think it’s all a knock on effect of the loss of the manufacturing industry.Which was where the most of the hard won negotiations,that got those types of conditions,to become an accepted and expected part of terms and conditions,came from.It’s the type of zb long accepted by those in weak unions like the shop workers,assuming that they were even in a union, etc where the rot set in after that.
Accountants and lawyers are the parasites, always have been and always will be 
Trev_H:
I get time and a half after 8 hrs each day, time and a half Saturday (double after 5hrs) and double time Sunday. Paid a min 50hr week (holidays too), I only work an average of 37hrs now
This has got a lot to do with it in my opinion. Drivers already in the job allowed later starters to come in on poorer terms as long as they were alright. The new fella was usually in a minority of one so wasn’t in any position to rock the boat nor get any support from his “workmates”. As the old boys left so did their terms and conditions.
Juddian:
Fortunately i never did see it happen, and always managed to earn proper rates following some investement on scabby firms to learn the trades, in more recent years on the cars by various bonus payments, which still have enhanced rates for weekend working.I’m currently on salary which takes into account shift payments, as i work weekends as part of my pattern i earn more than those who work weekdays only, that should apply to everyone and not the miserable amount i noticed the green truck brigade were paying their staff.
There is a common thread here though, every properly paid job i’ve had has been unionised, with correctly negotiated benefits gained over the years.
The jobs which have gone west in general are not unionised in a big way, or maybe those that are and have voted the wrong shop stewards or drivers reps in, those easily bought for example…seen that happen.
Alone and divided by petty jealousies drivers are easily picked off, only by sticking together and using fair collective (not necessarily militant, common sense is needed and a good union moderates its more unreasonable members too) bargaining will drivers better their lot.
Mind you drivers should learn not to take the mickey, those that do annoy me more than companies who abuse their staff.
I refer to those on good jobs who are either salaried or have proper sick pay schemes…despite all that has happened in the country some still have to take the ■■■■, milking sickness and using claimsRus for breaking a finger nail…the few jobs that still pay sickness won’t for much longer whilst idiots insist on taking the P.I’ve mentioned this point several times, i still believe its true but others don’t agree, and i’m not finger pointing as we all share some responsibility for this…
The job has got too easy in recent years, many moons ago you had to be truck driver to drive a truck and especially to (un)load (often by hand), secure and weatherproof the various different goods we carried.
The old way of doing it was hard and dirty work, and the trucks themselves needed skill and muscle to drive.
This is no longer the case in the vast majority of cases, so the job has attracted a different type of person purely chauffers, often those without Diesel running through the veins, the job became oversubscribed by the unskilled and sometimes those totally unsuited to the job, who wouldn’t have been interested or employable in the previous era.That didn’t matter because the skill needed for job wasn’t quite the same any more, where it took years to learn the ropes became condensed into weeks instead.
Jobs that require certain skills or the ability to cope are still well paid in most cases.
Oversubscribing meant too many licence holders chasing too few jobs, some companies saw a good way to recruit and bought flash tackle, certain drivers flocking to get there as a result.For an example i was on Kwik Save at one time, an excellent job, proper rates, food cages and freezer/chiller doors to shift, nothing too strenuous, but most of the shops were pokey places in awkward sites, needed some fair driving skills to get into some of the shops, and the trucks were all little day cabs…no glory involved there though the little motors were perfect for the job, you wouldn’t have got in half the shops with a bloody great tractor festooned with curtains and spoilers.
Result being no glory boys wanted the job, ridiculed it sometimes, which suited us down to the ground because the job didn’t get carved up and the wages stayed good till the end when Somerfield took over and the job like so many buggered.
All that is only my opinion and no doubt others will disagree.
I get the feeling and it is only a feeling that it might go full circle, i believe the car transporters for example will run short of good drivers in a few years as the average age is too high for the hard work involved, and one thing it aint is an old mans job and so far none of us is getting any younger…i’m out of it and will not go back no matter how much i’m offered.
I hope such things will happen in the general and other haulage side of things too, knock on effects etc, well here’s hoping, drivers could do their bit by sticking together and making themselves attractive to employers too, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Hey it could be worse, in London you don’t even have to be a driver to get behind the wheel of a bus… 
att:
Accountants and lawyers are the parasites, always have been and always will be
Dont forget that these parasites are usually employed by the big companies many who have moved on to salaried pay systems because they have the power to do so, these are the companies with contracts with the big customers eg:- the supermarkets, who in turn require to know that they are paying standard rates for the job.
One of the major causes of the erosion of enhanced over-time rates is caused by 7-day working mainly to supply the likes of tosco`s etc, weekends are no longer different to any other day of the week and we all expect to go shopping at the weekend including sundays 
The last 3 1/2 years has allowed the end user to dictate lower rates and coupled with the ever increasing price of diesel means that smaller employers can no longer pay enhanced rates.
att:
Accountants and lawyers are the parasites, always have been and always will be
+1 Aint this the truth!
It happened when the lawyers & accountants, and yes the most parasitic of them all, the bankers & politicians, realised that they could hold out longer than the working man, (not just drivers) who simply wanted to earn a decent wage for a decent days work.
When those workers who went on strike saw their wives and kids hungry and the banks came along and said, “If you can’t feed your kids and pay you’re mortgage/rent, we’ll put you on the streets… or why not borrow this really easy money to do all those tiresome things like buying food and paying rent?”
So the banks offered expensive credit so the workers could buy food and pay their rent, then slung them on the streets when they couldn’t pay for the credit they needed, (which had been created by their hard work and the hard work of their fathers.)
It’s not just drivers that need to stick together, and let’s face it, there are too many drivers who simply can’t afford to lose the job they DO have, on the off chance ALL drivers would stand together. No, it’s not just drivers that need to stick together, it’s everyone who has to work for a low, barely above minimum wage, hourly rate!
And unfortunately, the lumpen proletariat in this country simply won’t or don’t understand that every budget, every wage settlement and every banker’s bonus is just another inch of the corporate ■■■■■.
Oh, sorry, you didn’t want “…to start “World war three” with your question” nor hear “tales of kids down mines, capitalists versus socialists, political point scoring, etc,…” Well I really am sorry about that old 67, but it was you that asked the question. I make no excuses for the answer.
EastAnglianTrucker:
att:
Accountants and lawyers are the parasites, always have been and always will be+1 Aint this the truth!
It happened when the lawyers & accountants, and yes the most parasitic of them all, the bankers & politicians, realised that they could hold out longer than the working man, (not just drivers) who simply wanted to earn a decent wage for a decent days work.
When those workers who went on strike saw their wives and kids hungry and the banks came along and said, “If you can’t feed your kids and pay you’re mortgage/rent, we’ll put you on the streets… or why not borrow this really easy money to do all those tiresome things like buying food and paying rent?”
So the banks offered expensive credit so the workers could buy food and pay their rent, then slung them on the streets when they couldn’t pay for the credit they needed, (which had been created by their hard work and the hard work of their fathers.)
It’s not just drivers that need to stick together, and let’s face it, there are too many drivers who simply can’t afford to lose the job they DO have, on the off chance ALL drivers would stand together. No, it’s not just drivers that need to stick together, it’s everyone who has to work for a low, barely above minimum wage, hourly rate!
And unfortunately, the lumpen proletariat in this country simply won’t or don’t understand that every budget, every wage settlement and every banker’s bonus is just another inch of the corporate ■■■■■.
Oh, sorry, you didn’t want “…to start “World war three” with your question” nor hear “tales of kids down mines, capitalists versus socialists, political point scoring, etc,…” Well I really am sorry about that old 67, but it was you that asked the question. I make no excuses for the answer.
It’s just a matter of time in the long term before Britain ends up in the same situation as Greece regardless of what the working population does or doesn’t do because the downward trend has been allowed to go too far for too long and there’s probably no way back.As the tanker drivers’ union reps will probably find out soon enough.
Juddian:
Fortunately i never did see it happen, and always managed to earn proper rates following some investement on scabby firms to learn the trades, in more recent years on the cars by various bonus payments, which still have enhanced rates for weekend working.I’m currently on salary which takes into account shift payments, as i work weekends as part of my pattern i earn more than those who work weekdays only, that should apply to everyone and not the miserable amount i noticed the green truck brigade were paying their staff.
There is a common thread here though, every properly paid job i’ve had has been unionised, with correctly negotiated benefits gained over the years.
The jobs which have gone west in general are not unionised in a big way, or maybe those that are and have voted the wrong shop stewards or drivers reps in, those easily bought for example…seen that happen.
Alone and divided by petty jealousies drivers are easily picked off, only by sticking together and using fair collective (not necessarily militant, common sense is needed and a good union moderates its more unreasonable members too) bargaining will drivers better their lot.
Mind you drivers should learn not to take the mickey, those that do annoy me more than companies who abuse their staff.
I refer to those on good jobs who are either salaried or have proper sick pay schemes…despite all that has happened in the country some still have to take the ■■■■, milking sickness and using claimsRus for breaking a finger nail…the few jobs that still pay sickness won’t for much longer whilst idiots insist on taking the P.I’ve mentioned this point several times, i still believe its true but others don’t agree, and i’m not finger pointing as we all share some responsibility for this…
The job has got too easy in recent years, many moons ago you had to be truck driver to drive a truck and especially to (un)load (often by hand), secure and weatherproof the various different goods we carried.
The old way of doing it was hard and dirty work, and the trucks themselves needed skill and muscle to drive.
This is no longer the case in the vast majority of cases, so the job has attracted a different type of person purely chauffers, often those without Diesel running through the veins, the job became oversubscribed by the unskilled and sometimes those totally unsuited to the job, who wouldn’t have been interested or employable in the previous era.That didn’t matter because the skill needed for job wasn’t quite the same any more, where it took years to learn the ropes became condensed into weeks instead.
Jobs that require certain skills or the ability to cope are still well paid in most cases.
Oversubscribing meant too many licence holders chasing too few jobs, some companies saw a good way to recruit and bought flash tackle, certain drivers flocking to get there as a result.For an example i was on Kwik Save at one time, an excellent job, proper rates, food cages and freezer/chiller doors to shift, nothing too strenuous, but most of the shops were pokey places in awkward sites, needed some fair driving skills to get into some of the shops, and the trucks were all little day cabs…no glory involved there though the little motors were perfect for the job, you wouldn’t have got in half the shops with a bloody great tractor festooned with curtains and spoilers.
Result being no glory boys wanted the job, ridiculed it sometimes, which suited us down to the ground because the job didn’t get carved up and the wages stayed good till the end when Somerfield took over and the job like so many buggered.
All that is only my opinion and no doubt others will disagree.
I get the feeling and it is only a feeling that it might go full circle, i believe the car transporters for example will run short of good drivers in a few years as the average age is too high for the hard work involved, and one thing it aint is an old mans job and so far none of us is getting any younger…i’m out of it and will not go back no matter how much i’m offered.
I hope such things will happen in the general and other haulage side of things too, knock on effects etc, well here’s hoping, drivers could do their bit by sticking together and making themselves attractive to employers too, the two are not mutually exclusive.
GREAT POST!
EastAnglianTrucker:
att:
Accountants and lawyers are the parasites, always have been and always will be+1 Aint this the truth!
It happened when the lawyers & accountants, and yes the most parasitic of them all, the bankers & politicians, realised that they could hold out longer than the working man, (not just drivers) who simply wanted to earn a decent wage for a decent days work.
When those workers who went on strike saw their wives and kids hungry and the banks came along and said, “If you can’t feed your kids and pay you’re mortgage/rent, we’ll put you on the streets… or why not borrow this really easy money to do all those tiresome things like buying food and paying rent?”
So the banks offered expensive credit so the workers could buy food and pay their rent, then slung them on the streets when they couldn’t pay for the credit they needed, (which had been created by their hard work and the hard work of their fathers.)
It’s not just drivers that need to stick together, and let’s face it, there are too many drivers who simply can’t afford to lose the job they DO have, on the off chance ALL drivers would stand together. No, it’s not just drivers that need to stick together, it’s everyone who has to work for a low, barely above minimum wage, hourly rate!
And unfortunately, the lumpen proletariat in this country simply won’t or don’t understand that every budget, every wage settlement and every banker’s bonus is just another inch of the corporate ■■■■■.
Oh, sorry, you didn’t want “…to start “World war three” with your question” nor hear “tales of kids down mines, capitalists versus socialists, political point scoring, etc,…” Well I really am sorry about that old 67, but it was you that asked the question. I make no excuses for the answer.
I am so pleased that someone else can see the bigger picture, but more importantly, recognise that nothing will change unless we make it so.
The time will come, it always does, just a shame that we may never see it in our lifetime.