I don`t like being controversial, but have you all considered heat pumps?
Compared with merely using electricity to heat a wire, they are up to 300% efficient*. They are not always a simple switch into existing systems, but can be worth the capital investment.
If 100% efficiency is from heating an element, a heat pump can “shift” up to 3 times as much energy.
(like to see this done in imperial measures too!)
Franglais:
I don`t like being controversial, but have you all considered heat pumps?Compared with merely using electricity to heat a wire, they are up to 300% efficient*. They are not always a simple switch into existing systems, but can be worth the capital investment.
If 100% efficiency is from heating an element, a heat pump can “shift” up to 3 times as much energy.
(like to see this done in imperial measures too!)
Only if you believe in the physics of more energy out than you put in and that it can miraculously turn 20 degrees C air temp into 50-60 degrees C water temp for nothing.Let alone 0 degrees air temp.Also costs around 10-20k installation for the privilege.
The return on solar panels is better than heat pumps and they are bad enough.
Have you taken your own advice by ditching the gas boiler for a heat pump.Bearing in mind that France is obviously turning it’s back on dangerous expensive nuclear and nicking our gas instead according to UK gas export figures.
Carryfast:
Only if you believe in the physics of more energy out than you put in and that it can miraculously turn 20 degrees C air temp into 50-60 degrees C water temp for nothing. Let alone 0 degrees air temp.
You`re looking at the “wrong” system.
In a closed system energy is neither created nor destroyed.
If, as I said, electricity is used to heat a wire then that is a closed system. It isn`t necessary to look outside, as one form of energy is converted into another.
A heat pump uses electricity to “pump” heat energy from one place to another. It is not being used to convert electrical energy into thermal energy.
Heat pumps work perfectly well taking heat energy from air at minus 10deg C and dropping it to minus 20. Ask any fridge driver!
Heat is coming off of the fridge.
Heat is coming from the back (or sides) of your kitchen freezer. It is taking that heat from summat well below 0deg C.
The closed system you need to look at with heat pumps includes the air being cooled and the air being warmed. The thermal energy there is staying the same in total, as electrical energy raises one, by the same amount the other is lowered.
It isn`t something for nothing.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Only if you believe in the physics of more energy out than you put in and that it can miraculously turn 20 degrees C air temp into 50-60 degrees C water temp for nothing. Let alone 0 degrees air temp.You`re looking at the “wrong” system.
In a closed system energy is neither created nor destroyed.
If, as I said, electricity is used to heat a wire then that is a closed system. It isn`t necessary to look outside, as one form of energy is converted into another.A heat pump uses electricity to “pump” heat energy from one place to another. It is not being used to convert electrical energy into thermal energy.
Heat pumps work perfectly well taking heat energy from air at minus 10deg C and dropping it to minus 20. Ask any fridge driver!
Heat is coming off of the fridge.
Heat is coming from the back (or sides) of your kitchen freezer. It is taking that heat from summat well below 0deg C.The closed system you need to look at with heat pumps includes the air being cooled and the air being warmed. The thermal energy there is staying the same in total, as electrical energy raises one, by the same amount the other is lowered.
It isn`t something for nothing.
Good luck trying to heat the area of a house to 22 degrees C and provide a tankful of 55 degree C water by taking the ‘heat’ out of 0 degrees air temperature.
You didn’t answer the question have you taken your own advice by installing a ‘heat pump’.
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Only if you believe in the physics of more energy out than you put in and that it can miraculously turn 20 degrees C air temp into 50-60 degrees C water temp for nothing. Let alone 0 degrees air temp.You`re looking at the “wrong” system.
In a closed system energy is neither created nor destroyed.
If, as I said, electricity is used to heat a wire then that is a closed system. It isn`t necessary to look outside, as one form of energy is converted into another.A heat pump uses electricity to “pump” heat energy from one place to another. It is not being used to convert electrical energy into thermal energy.
Heat pumps work perfectly well taking heat energy from air at minus 10deg C and dropping it to minus 20. Ask any fridge driver!
Heat is coming off of the fridge.
Heat is coming from the back (or sides) of your kitchen freezer. It is taking that heat from summat well below 0deg C.The closed system you need to look at with heat pumps includes the air being cooled and the air being warmed. The thermal energy there is staying the same in total, as electrical energy raises one, by the same amount the other is lowered.
It isn`t something for nothing.
Good luck trying to heat the area of a house to 22 degrees C and provide a tankful of 55 degree C water by taking the ‘heat’ out of 0 degrees air temperature.
You didn’t answer the question have you taken your own advice by installing a ‘heat pump’.
Tut Tut.
0 deg…what? Answer zero degrees Celsius.
Or
Plus 273 degrees Kelvin.
There is (in imperial measurements) shed loads of energy in 0 deg C air. 
I did try to help you earlier. I`ll try again:
I have a frozen pie at minus one degree C.
Can I make that pie colder?
Yes, I can. (Pies at less than minus one exist)
To do so, I need to extract heat from that pie.
That heat is moved elsewhere by a refrigeration system. (Trust me, I`ve got a Gold Anorak!)
So… heat is moved from some where colder, to somewhere warmer.
Yep, I know… but you see this everyday in your own household fridge and freezer. Those of us who have dealt with real fridge lorries have seen this too.
If dealing with thermodynamics it is often best to deal with a scale where the origin is zero, not +273 degrees.
Even Tim Harford got that wrong…but he won`t admit it!
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Only if you believe in the physics of more energy out than you put in and that it can miraculously turn 20 degrees C air temp into 50-60 degrees C water temp for nothing. Let alone 0 degrees air temp.You`re looking at the “wrong” system.
In a closed system energy is neither created nor destroyed.
If, as I said, electricity is used to heat a wire then that is a closed system. It isn`t necessary to look outside, as one form of energy is converted into another.A heat pump uses electricity to “pump” heat energy from one place to another. It is not being used to convert electrical energy into thermal energy.
Heat pumps work perfectly well taking heat energy from air at minus 10deg C and dropping it to minus 20. Ask any fridge driver!
Heat is coming off of the fridge.
Heat is coming from the back (or sides) of your kitchen freezer. It is taking that heat from summat well below 0deg C.The closed system you need to look at with heat pumps includes the air being cooled and the air being warmed. The thermal energy there is staying the same in total, as electrical energy raises one, by the same amount the other is lowered.
It isn`t something for nothing.
Good luck trying to heat the area of a house to 22 degrees C and provide a tankful of 55 degree C water by taking the ‘heat’ out of 0 degrees air temperature.
You didn’t answer the question have you taken your own advice by installing a ‘heat pump’.Tut Tut.
0 deg…what? Answer zero degrees Celsius.
Or
Plus 273 degrees Kelvin.There is (in imperial measurements) shed loads of energy in 0 deg C air.
I did try to help you earlier. I`ll try again:
I have a frozen pie at minus one degree C.
Can I make that pie colder?
Yes, I can. (Pies at less than minus one exist)To do so, I need to extract heat from that pie.
That heat is moved elsewhere by a refrigeration system. (Trust me, I`ve got a Gold Anorak!)
So… heat is moved from some where colder, to somewhere warmer.
Yep, I know… but you see this everyday in your own household fridge and freezer. Those of us who have dealt with real fridge lorries have seen this too.If dealing with thermodynamics it is often best to deal with a scale where the origin is zero, not +273 degrees.
Even Tim Harford got that wrong…but he won`t admit it!
We don’t need to make the volume of the air in the house 22 degrees C ‘colder’ than 0 degrees C. We need to make the volume of the air in the house 22 degrees C ‘warmer’ than 0 degrees C.
Let alone the hot water tank and rads 55 degrees C v 0 degrees C.Where is the required energy to do that warming coming from.
Franglais:
If dealing with thermodynamics it is often best to deal with a scale where the origin is zero, not +273 degrees.
Even Tim Harford got that wrong…but he won`t admit it!
So have you taken your own advice by ditching your gas or even electric boiler for a heat pump ?.
Carryfast:
So have you taken your own advice by ditching your gas or even electric boiler for a heat pump ?.
What advice was that?
Although actually I am looking closer at heat pumps. I renewed my fossil boiler ten years ago, and at that time, it wasn`t worth the change for me. Now? I doubt that fossil fuels will be getting cheaper anytime soon.
A bigger price difference between fossil fuel and electricity will tip the balance towards electric heating and (in spite of CF not seeing it) heat pumps are much more efficient than resistance heating if using electricity.
Carryfast:
https://youtu.be/GhAKMAcmJFg
Interesting video.
Not much there to argue with. Although he does get a bit over excited and focuses on the losers and skims over those who say “I have installed a heat pump and it works beautifully” 1min 10. And he is correct that bad incentive schemes can encourage poorly qualified fitters and mis-selling. Hardly a shock.
Some are getting a warm house and cheaper bills. Some are getting no saving and poor heating.
Franglais:
They are not always a simple switch into existing systems,
A well specified and fitted system will be good. A bad one, will be bad. Who`d a guessed it?
Since you put the link up, I suggest you shout at the man that he “is all wrong” when he says that:
“There is free heat floating about in the outdoors” 1min 30.
“CoP of 3” and “for every kW you put, you will get 3kW of energy here” 3min 10.
“Sure they work in Scandinavia” 4min 40.
I repeat
Franglais:
They are not always a simple switch into existing systems,
But, they do work in colder climates than the UK.
Whether they are cost efficient is another matter.
At the moment certainly not for every existing house. I have never said that. I have given no advice either way.
I do say they are worth looking at. And if there is a greater step between elec and fossil prices the decision will sway towards heat pumps.
Carryfast:
lancpudn:
@carryfast. You’ll need to pin down your actual usage in terms of kWh reading at the meter to make any conclusions.
It takes some serious if not impossible economising to get below 200 kWh for electric and 500 kWh gas per month.Bearing in mind that any transfer of usage from gas to electric will be at the expense of around 4x the unit price.The sums for electric only really add up in the case of ditching gas central heating for single room electric heat of no more than 2kwh preferably 1kwh.
Also there is no way to avoid standing charges and VAT.
200 quid per month is a realistic bet possibly a lot more including EV charging at these prices but all bets are off after October.
Let alone when the now compulsory EV smart charging allows road fuel tax and 20%VAT on EV charging.Yeah I’ll have to look at some numbers but since we got put onto Octopus energy after Avro energy went belly we’ve gone from paying £80/month for duel fuel to £143/month now they’re wanting £247/month WTF! we don’t use a lot of energy here. The MG only gets topped up twice a month costing between £10-15/month, It’s like going back to paying another monthly mortgage payment.
You can tell Octopus that youll pay the bill by DD every month but only based on the meter reading.
That’s what I do all done by e mail submission.
They send the meter reading portal then you put in the figures then they make up the bill.
That figure sounds like a set payment based on average use across the year.If so doubt if 247 quid will even cut it unless the house is as cold as outside in the winter.
Yes it’s a set monthly payment to cover the whole year & I might ask them to pay the actual monthly bill instead of the set amount, It is an old cold house which we’ve had cavity wall & loft insulation done. We usually only heat one room or put the central heating on for a couple of hours at night time when it gets too cold.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
So have you taken your own advice by ditching your gas or even electric boiler for a heat pump ?.What advice was that?
Although actually I am looking closer at heat pumps. I renewed my fossil boiler ten years ago, and at that time, it wasn`t worth the change for me. Now? I doubt that fossil fuels will be getting cheaper anytime soon.
A bigger price difference between fossil fuel and electricity will tip the balance towards electric heating and (in spite of CF not seeing it) heat pumps are much more efficient than resistance heating if using electricity. Like everything else to do with ‘global warming’ it’s a scam.Carryfast:
https://youtu.be/GhAKMAcmJFgInteresting video.
Not much there to argue with. Although he does get a bit over excited and focuses on the losers and skims over those who say “I have installed a heat pump and it works beautifully” 1min 10. And he is correct that bad incentive schemes can encourage poorly qualified fitters and mis-selling. Hardly a shock.
Some are getting a warm house and cheaper bills. Some are getting no saving and poor heating.Franglais:
They are not always a simple switch into existing systems,A well specified and fitted system will be good. A bad one, will be bad. Who`d a guessed it?
Since you put the link up, I suggest you shout at the man that he “is all wrong” when he says that:
“There is free heat floating about in the outdoors” 1min 30.
“CoP of 3” and “for every kW you put, you will get 3kW of energy here” 3min 10.
“Sure they work in Scandinavia” 4min 40.I repeat
Franglais:
They are not always a simple switch into existing systems,But, they do work in colder climates than the UK.
Whether they are cost efficient is another matter.
At the moment certainly not for every existing house. I have never said that. I have given no advice either way.
I do say they are worth looking at. And if there is a greater step between elec and fossil prices the decision will sway towards heat pumps.
Ironically it’s self evident from his own advice that you can’t get 2 or 3kw of heat out by putting 1kw in.
He also predicted the government’s stated aim of artificially increasing gas prices to match electric.Bearing in mind a more than 100% increase in the price of gas.
As for a fridge in reverse I’ve never seen a fridge yet that has great big fan or any fan in its system and certainly doesn’t create 2 or 3x as much energy as put in.
On that note if it was true we would obviously be using massive heat pumps instead of nuclear power stations or wind turbines to generate electricity.
lancpudn:
Yes it’s a set monthly payment to cover the whole year & I might ask them to pay the actual monthly bill instead of the set amount, It is an old cold house which we’ve had cavity wall & loft insulation done. We usually only heat one room or put the central heating on for a couple of hours at night time when it gets too cold.
^ That’s going to be the default living standard for all but the rich.
As for cavity wall and loft insulation combined with a cold house with local warm areas that’s all the ingredients to wreck a house through condensation and damp.
The cavity walls are there for a reason filling the space defeats the object.
Carryfast:
Ironically it’s self evident from his own advice that you can’t get 2 or 3kw of heat out by putting 1kw in.
He also predicted the government’s stated aim of artificially increasing gas prices to match electric.Bearing in mind a more than 100% increase in the price of gas.
As for a fridge in reverse I’ve never seen a fridge yet that has great big fan or any fan in its system and certainly doesn’t create 2 or 3x as much energy as put in.
On that note if it was true we would obviously be using massive heat pumps instead of nuclear power stations or wind turbines to generate electricity.
Last try.
If electrical energy is converted into thermal energy, then yes, 1kW of electric will convert to 1kW of heat. (Assuming 100% efficiency)
A heat pump is not doing this. A heat pump could indeed be run using a petrol V8 (bet that woke you up!) but for simplicity we are discussing those run by electric motors.
A heat pump is not converting electricity into heat, it is moving heat from one place to another place. It is not “making” heat.
It works by taking heat from a cooler place, (inside a fridge/outside in the winter) and depositing it in a warmer place (outside the fridge/inside in the winter).
1 kW of electricity can move up to 3kW of heat.
I repeat that 1kW of electricity is not being converted into heat. It is moving heat.
It is not a case of “creating energy” in any way.
Conservation of energy is retained at all times. The heat lost by one place, (inside the fridge/a winter day) is the same as the energy gained by (outside the fridge/inside the house) another place.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Ironically it’s self evident from his own advice that you can’t get 2 or 3kw of heat out by putting 1kw in.
He also predicted the government’s stated aim of artificially increasing gas prices to match electric.Bearing in mind a more than 100% increase in the price of gas.
As for a fridge in reverse I’ve never seen a fridge yet that has great big fan or any fan in its system and certainly doesn’t create 2 or 3x as much energy as put in.
On that note if it was true we would obviously be using massive heat pumps instead of nuclear power stations or wind turbines to generate electricity.Last try.
If electrical energy is converted into thermal energy, then yes, 1kW of electric will convert to 1kW of heat. (Assuming 100% efficiency)
A heat pump is not doing this. A heat pump could indeed be run using a petrol V8 (bet that woke you up!) but for simplicity we are discussing those run by electric motors.
A heat pump is not converting electricity into heat, it is moving heat from one place to another place. It is not “making” heat.
It works by taking heat from a cooler place, (inside a fridge/outside in the winter) and depositing it in a warmer place (outside the fridge/inside in the winter).
1 kW of electricity can move up to 3kW of heat.
I repeat that 1kW of electricity is not being converted into heat. It is moving heat.It is not a case of “creating energy” in any way.
Conservation of energy is retained at all times. The heat lost by one place, (inside the fridge/a winter day) is the same as the energy gained by (outside the fridge/inside the house) another place.
A ‘heat pump’ clearly has no connection to how a fridge works ( compression of refrigerant gas to liquid followed by evaporation back to gas ).
It also clearly can’t turn 0 degrees ambient air temperature into 22 degrees room temperature on the basis of 1 kw of energy in for every 3 kw of heat energy out.
As I said if the claim was true we obviously wouldn’t be bothering with nuke/biomass/gas fuelled power stations or wind turbines.
We’d obviously be using closed loop feedback massive heat pump power stations on the basis of 3kw of heat energy out (moved) for every 1kw generated by it.
Its a scam just like the idea that CO2 cooked Venus.The truth is you can’t take/‘move’ 3kw of heat energy out of freezing temperature air.Just like you can’t run a steam turbine on cold water.
While in view of your belief in the idea surely you’d have got one by now.
To make optimum use of all that cheap safe French nuke power.
Rather than France closing down its nuke power stations and trying to get its hands on as much of our North Sea gas as Boris can export there.
I should have let this go, but I remembered being told by one of teachers of the heat pumps at the Festival of Britain. Two ex-Spitfire engines powered the heating system in the Royal Festival Hall. A wee bit about it here.
“Heating systems
A ground source heat pump was used to heat the building in the winter and cool the building in the summer. Water was extracted from the River Thames below Hungerford Bridge using a centrifugal pump. Heat was extracted from the river water using a heat pump. The compressors were driven by two Rolls-Royce Merlin engines, adapted to run on town gas. It was highly successful, providing both heating and cooling for the Hall, but over-sized, and was sold off after the Festival of Britain.”
placeandsee.com/wiki/royal-festival-hall
I expect Mr CF to work out how much energy the 2 engines used, and whether simply burning that amount of gas would overheat the hall as the heat pumps did.
(Hint…it wouldn`t!)
Summat For Nothing? Nope.
And for the TNUK audience :
A Gardner 6LXB or even a Rover V8 ticking over will easily power a house or more. Burning the same amount of petrol or diesel they would use, wouldn`t.
Franglais:
I should have let this go, but I remembered being told by one of teachers of the heat pumps at the Festival of Britain. Two ex-Spitfire engines powered the heating system in the Royal Festival Hall. A wee bit about it here.“Heating systems
A ground source heat pump was used to heat the building in the winter and cool the building in the summer. Water was extracted from the River Thames below Hungerford Bridge using a centrifugal pump. Heat was extracted from the river water using a heat pump. The compressors were driven by two Rolls-Royce Merlin engines, adapted to run on town gas. It was highly successful, providing both heating and cooling for the Hall, but over-sized, and was sold off after the Festival of Britain.”
placeandsee.com/wiki/royal-festival-hallI expect Mr CF to work out how much energy the 2 engines used, and whether simply burning that amount of gas would overheat the hall as the heat pumps did.
(Hint…it wouldn`t!)Summat For Nothing? Nope.
And for the TNUK audience
A Gardner 6LXB or even a Rover V8 ticking over will easily power a house or more. Burning the same amount of petrol or diesel they would use, wouldn`t.
But ironically with all of your Global Warming belief and France’s prolific nuclear electric generation you chose to install … a gas boiler rather than a ground source let alone air source heat pump.
3 kw out for 1kw in is clearly what’s being sold to the mugs.Even if it was true that still needs around 7kw of electric at 30p per kwh = £2.10 per hour to match the output of a 20kw gas boiler at 8p per kWh = £1.60 per hour.
No surprise that France prefers to shut down its power stations and take our gas instead.
While if the 3 to 1 lie was true we’d obviously have heat pump power stations feeding back 3kw for every kw generated instead of burning gas to generate electric at an old fashioned 30% efficiency from boiler to plug.
Let’s just “boil it down” to saying
“Heat pumps are crap, do not work, cannot work, and cannot disobey the laws of physics regarding entropy”.
If you’re gonna emigrate somewhere for your retirement, I suggest that you pick a country with high, but lowering interest rates, plentiful utility supplies, and no shortages of food at all stages from Farm Field to Table.
Russia and Egypt - spring to mind as good places to go right now, in that regard. Go figure!! 
Electricity - is practically free in Egypt as it is already. People habitually leave their lights on day and night, and yet don’t put their car headlights on, because the streets are so well lit at night, you can get by without anything more than side lights, and a working horn…
Food in Russia? - The international community has worked hard to shut Russia out of the international commodity markets, so they cannot sell their “Booty” in the form of Grain from Ukrainian Silos - being carted back to Russia…
Ahem. I don’t think Russia are bothering to do this to “make a quick ruble”, nor “feed their otherwise starving citizens”…
The markets - would suggest that Russia are achieving rather a corner on the grain markets in particular… They are on the verge of cutting out the entire west as “World Superpower” on pretty much EVERYTHING.
A tonic to combat the globalists there?
Shortages in the west - can therefore only be about “controlling the WESTERN population” - seeing as they are not having any effect whatsoever on the world’s autocrats…
“Save America” - can only gain momentum at this point. Biden speaks of it as a “Bad Thing” - but like in 2016, the Left of politics - ends up doing free advertizing for this alternative world view that will end up being the only way forward - a true unification of the world’s working classes under the banner “We’ve bloody well had enough of lying, cheating politicians who throw OUR cash away on follies of foreign policy that no longer even enrich themselves any more…”
I doubt very much if any western politicians - have their ill-gotten gains stashed in Rubles - the official “Best performing currency of the DECADE” by this point…
In other news, Boris could be gone by this time tomorrow…
No, Boris - we’re not ■■■■■■ off over “PartyGate” - we’re ■■■■■■ off that we’re having green and foreign policy tosh - rammed down our throat all the time!
Keir Starmer for next prime minister?
Why?
He’s not offering to reverse all of Boris’ stuff already done, after all… And surely he won’t offer to change nothing - or there’d be no point replacing Boris with him - would there?
Added to France closing down its nuke power stations in favour of UK gas imports Germany’s greens obviously prefer fossil fuel to another Chernobyl in the fatherland.
cnn.com/2022/06/19/energy/ge … index.html
See there now going to put a cap on how much you can get in credit with the energy companies , using it as interest free money to invest , about time , quick to put your monthly payment up but don’t want to bring it down
100% efficiancy would be “once you start it, you’ll never have to put anything further into the system to keep it running again”.
That engineer’s dream of “Perpetual Motion” that, is just that - a pipe dream.
A power source for the future, would be a non-renewable but clean and limitless supply of “once it’s gone - it’s gone”.
On this planet, SEAWATER would be the thing there.
Out in space - Solar panels - might actually have a use there, rather than the high degree of uselessness they have down here on earth, what with clouds, night time, and smudgy collectors all getting in the way of any degree of “efficiancy”.
The materials they are made from - are not exactly “renewable” neither, - are they?
