Help on which tacho mode to use?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Mike-C:

ROG:
if not driving or working and know the waiting time the driver has the legal choice of break - not rest - or POA
other work could be used but if not actually working then technically its illegal because its a false record - doubt any driver would get done for that though

Driving is out of the window as its an automatically selected mode.

Break is an option if the driver is recuperating exclusivley.

POA is an option if the driver knows how long his wait is and is not required to remain at his workstation. I’d guess if he’s in a queue though, that he’ll need to stay there, thus negating the POA requirements.

Other work which you think is ‘technically illegal’ because its a false record is actually described as …

– the times during which he cannot dispose freely of
his time and is required to be at his workstation,
ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks
associated with being on duty, in particular during
periods awaiting loading or unloading where their
foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is
to say either before departure or just before the
actual start of the period in question, or under the
general conditions negotiated between the social
partners and/or under the terms of the legislation of

But somehow you think otherwork is illegal ? LOL !!
I’m just suprised you havn’t asked him to go back in time to a period when he may of had 90 hours off in one weekend. Oh, hang on, sorry forget that i was thinking of something else. Excuse me.

Haha all our heads are screwed

22

lol after all that im no closer to a answer

23

pump:
lol after all that im no closer to a answer

Are you actually driving? = no
Are you actually doing other work? = no
Put it on break? = yes

Simple

24

ROG:

pump:
lol after all that im no closer to a answer

Are you actually driving? = no
Are you actually doing other work? = no
Put it on break? = yes

Simple

that is my way of thinking rog so will keep doing that.

25

ROG:

pump:
lol after all that im no closer to a answer

Are you actually driving? = no

ROG you appear to cherry pick your answers, and you give scenarios that will suit your answers.
Driving mode is not an option for anyone, it records automatically. Somehow you see this as an option and you’ve answered it for the OP based on his question.
Your question above is a non question, its stupid, it makes no sense to the OP. Driving is not an option for anyone using a tachograph. Thats fatal mistake one.

ROG:
Are you actually doing other work? = no

Well lets examine this more. We know its not driving because that records automatically.So what have we got left, POA , work or break?

The OP says…

I spend a bit of time waiting in line to load. Sometimes could be 2 or 3 trucks in front of me each taking 20/30 min to load.

At times I try take my 15/30 mines rest if i require it to stay legal driving time.
…

What mode should it be on when waiting to load ?

This helps us narrow it down. He’s waiting to load, so exclusivley recuperating its not. So thats break out the window. We need to know if the OP can leave his workstation and need to know if the OP knows the duration his his wait before he’s called back to perform his duties. From what he’s said i don;t think thats the case. I’ve told above what work is and its exactly the scenario the OP describes.
Somehow you dismiss it as…is he working =No.
Looks to me like he is indeed exactly working and the description of what he is doing couldn’t fit in any more better to the definition of work.Thats fatal mistake two.

ROG:
Put it on break? = yes

Simple

So, we know he’s not driving, he’s unsure of how long he’s going to be, he not using the period for exclusive recuperation as he is in a queue ready to unload/ or load. And you say “put it on break=yes”.
You give this factual answer without finding out anymore important info like…is he required to remain at his workstation which may enable other options to be considered.

Your advice throughout the thread is totally incorrect.

You said above that recording work is illegal unless actually working, i think you’ve said this without any thought for what the regulations are based on your one line questions and answers which you’re also way off the mark with. In short you’ve not read the OP’s post or paid attention to it. (refer back to my very first sentence in this post)
I appreciate some people might think i’m being ■■■■ taking you to task over your answers, but frankly seeing as you’ve set yourself up as an internet expert over the last five years or so then you should know this stuff. As it is you give out info that is duff, ill thought out, ill considered.

I can contrast this easily with someone like Limeyphil saying…“just shove it on break”, as opposed to you giving your “expert” advice. And frankly you’ve give out a lot of bum expert advice, and continue to do so.

Btw I’m giving you this opinion as a member of the site (not as a moderator) the same as anyone else can and i’m entitled to my views just like everyone else.

26

Stick the ■■■■ thing on break, get a 15 or a 30 in.If there are two or three in front of you put the seat back shut your eyes and take a break. Do you really want to be parked in a layby for half an hour wishing you were on your way home.

27

For those in the UK the bottom line is - would VOSA prosecute for putting it on break in that circumstance?

28

Your choices are either POA or break. Use whichever one suits you or your company for the best. Break is all well and good but there are times in the day when, if taken too early, it could screw you up and mean that you have to take another break in the day whereas if you had put it onto POA then you could get away with having just the one break.

I dont have any evidence to back this up but I would suspect that if you got pulled by VOSA in the event of having an accident and there were multiple period of break which were around the 12/28 or 43 mins, they could assume that you were not taking a proper break period.

29

And of course there is another equation which needs to be thrown into the ring and that is the type of work you are doing. If for example you work as a tanker driver and are in a fuel terminal waiting to load, I dont feel that taking either a break or POA is acceptable as you are in a hazardous environment where potentially something could go wrong and you should have your wits about you watching and looking for problems - I’m not convinced this should be a break or POA.

30

Some of the replys would make you wonder. I’m in the same situation with bulk tankers. It takes about 13 minutes to lad them. If there are 2 trucks in front of me that’s minimum of 26 minutes so I take my 15 break.
Now some say you are in a que and you’ll have to move before your break is legit. What I do to get around this is fairly radical, I just sit there.
I decide when I’m on break. In a situation like this ill stick to minimum time to keep the que moving. But when I used to be on box vans, I would say to goods in I’m taking my break, it’s gonna be at least half an hour, is it okay here or will you need the bay? If they agree I ain’t moving till I’m done.

31

yea its fuel terminal work for me

32

pump:
yea its fuel terminal work for me

Your company should have clear guidelines for this sort of scenario. Have you asked them? Always go to the top for clear advise and instruction.

33

It’s a smaller company I work for 11/12 drivers don’t think the company knows itself.

I will ask some more lads but everyone I have asked so far has giving me pao, rest and a few said other work.

I will ask some of the lads in the big companies Monday when im back to work they must be told what to use. at the moment im staying with rest when It suits me and pao.

Thanks for the help to all

34

all this is fairly academic unless something horrible happens. Then the driver will be in the dock/witness box and a snotty lawyer will ask him,
“During this break you say you took, were you freely able to dispose of your time as you wished?”
If the answer is,
“No, I had to stay in my wagon in case I was called forward in the queue”
Then the conclusion is that no break was taken and the driver was responsible for all/some of the subsequent problems.

35

Euro:
all this is fairly academic unless something horrible happens. Then the driver will be in the dock/witness box and a snotty lawyer will ask him,
“During this break you say you took, were you freely able to dispose of your time as you wished?”
If the answer is,
“No, I had to stay in my wagon in case I was called forward in the queue”
Then the conclusion is that no break was taken and the driver was responsible for all/some of the subsequent problems.

Agreed. It’s like most things though really.

36

Euro:
all this is fairly academic unless something horrible happens. Then the driver will be in the dock/witness box and a snotty lawyer will ask him,
“During this break you say you took, were you freely able to dispose of your time as you wished?”
If the answer is,
“No, I had to stay in my wagon in case I was called forward in the queue”
Then the conclusion is that no break was taken and the driver was responsible for all/some of the subsequent problems.

If not working or driving then it can be break so assuming that …

The legal conclusion for that under EU regs would be that the driver acted correctly and if anyone disagrees then ask a legal expert

Reason = there is no legal requirement under EU regs for the driver on break to be able to freely dispose of their time

I do not THINK this is the correct answer - I KNOW it is

If a court determined that the driver was actually working then the outcome would be different but the court would have to prove what the driver was doing that constituted work - waiting is not work

37

The question I have for you rog is …………

I normally do 3 loads a day ……….

Load 1 ………. I start myself earl so I avoid the bunch so I normally don’t get any delay first thing in the morning. if i do i will put the tacho on rest.

Load 2 …… when im back for load two there is normally two trucks in front of me so when im in line I normally put the tacho to rest for 15 min while I go the toilet and make a quick cut of tea. After the 15min I would normally put it on PAO for the rest of the waiting to load as i have a good idea how long this will take.

I would take my 30min rest at some point between end of loading load 2 and returning to load for load 3 depending on my 4.5 hour driving time.

Load 3 ……. Back to the depot and if was a truck or two in front of me I would once again take 15min rest (to reset my wtd hours for the rest of the day) and back onto PAO.

So ……. Should I not use PAO at any stage during the day waiting to load? If not what is the point of the PAO?

38

pump:
The question I have for you rog is …………

I normally do 3 loads a day ……….

Load 1 ………. I start myself earl so I avoid the bunch so I normally don’t get any delay first thing in the morning.

Load 2 …… when im back for load two there is normally two trucks in front of me so when im in line I normally put the tacho to rest for 15 min while I go the toilet and make a quick cut of tea. After the 15min I would normally put it on PAO for the rest of the waiting to load as i have a good idea how long this will take.

I would take my 30min rest at some point between end of loading load 2 and returning to load for load 3 depending on my 4.5 hour driving time.

Load 3 ……. Back to the depot and if was a truck or two in front of me I would once again take 15min rest (to reset my wtd hours for the rest of the day) and back onto PAO.

So ……. Should I not use PAO at any stage during the day waiting to load? If not what is the point of the PAO?

There is no real point to POA unless a drivers contract says they do not get paid for recorded breaks or the driver needs to delay the reset of the 4.5 driving time

POA is designed so that a driver can be ‘on duty’ for longer under RTD rules - the rules which the authorities have not bothered with for well over 5 years and which only some companies bother to comply with

Apart from the 6 hour rule the RTD/WTD should be scrapped because it really serves no useful purpose

Had the RTD stated a max ‘on duty’ or shift time with an average of X hours over X weeks then it would have made sense and the authorities could have easily seen if it had been exceeded but the UK Govt vetoed that option back in the early 2000s because that would have meant paying drivers a proper wage and employing more drivers to cover what needed doing

39

ok so in another recent post the guy used a PAO on a loading bay and this reset his driving hours, and he over did his driving hours because the company said this PAO dose not count to reset his 4.5 hour driving time even though the tacho driving hours will reset to zero.

is this true?

40

pump:
ok so in another recent post the guy used a PAO on a loading bay and this reset his driving hours, and he over did his hours because the company said this PAO dose not count to reset his 4.5 hour driving time even thoug the tacho will reste to zero.

is this true?

I had this problem yesterday.

I left the depot and did a run which was around 1.45 mins driving. When I got onto the bay, I put it onto POA and then when I pulled off the bay, the time elapsed was around one hour and thirty mins. I then started to drive and upon checking the amount of time I had been driving, the system told me I had been driving for say one hour when in actual fact I had been driving for the 1.45 plus the one hour.

For some unknown reason, tachos do not all function in the same way so in this case it would have been very easy for me to have driven for another 3.5 hours and had I of done that then I would have been 1.45 hours over the 4.5 hours - if that makes sense.

Unless you are in the same vehicle and know how that tacho operates, I would suggest that you either need to keep a mental log or if you’ve a memory like mine, write down key information like, last break period and driving hours so that you stay compliant.

Really, it would make sense that all of these tacho’s have the same firmware in them so that there is continuity across the range.