The official definition of a break according to the VOSA manual is…
LATEST VOSA MANUAL:
A break is any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation. A break may be taken in a moving vehicle, provided no other work is undertaken.
We all know that VOSA unlike the rest of Europe does not recognise POA as Break despite the above being their own definition of break. As we all know that when you are on POA the above definition of what VOSA calls a Break must be being followed since on POA you will not be doing other work, driving or you could be sat in the passenger seat being chauffered.
Does anyone know of a case where the above argument has been used in court to dispute any prosecution or not taking break? If not why not? Any thoughts?
We all know that VOSA unlike the rest of Europe does not recognise POA as Break despite the above being their own definition of break. As we all know that when you are on POA the above definition of what VOSA calls a Break must be being followed since on POA you will not be doing other work, driving or you could be sat in the passenger seat being chauffered.
Does anyone know of a case where the above argument has been used in court to dispute any prosecution or not taking break? If not why not? Any thoughts?
If the rest of Europe recognise POA as break I would say that the rest of Europe must be wrong
Both of the following documents were passed by the EU commission and it appears that they also don’t recognise POA as being break, so I don’t see how there could be a realistic challenge to VOSA not recognising POA as break.
– periods other than those relating to break times and
rest times during which the mobile worker is not
required to remain at his workstation, but must be
available to answer any calls to start or resume driving
or to carry out other work. In particular such periods of
availability shall include periods during which the
mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being transported
by ferryboat or by train as well as periods of
waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions.
These periods and their foreseeable duration shall be
known in advance by the mobile worker, that is to say
either before departure or just before the actual start of
the period in question, or under the general conditions
negotiated between the social partners and/or under the
terms of the legislation of the Member States,
– for mobile workers driving in a team, the time spent
sitting next to the driver
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member
is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.
Thanks , but since lets say whilst being unloaded it would be purely my choice (assuming I knew in advance the length of time it would take) whether I set my tacho to POA or break then the two should be interchangeable by all the above definitions therefore should be by law counted as one and the same.
I have been led to believe (I have no personal experience) that our European partners do count POA as break, and thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
I always wondered why POA had been brought in instead of having the three choices of driving, other work and break/rest
If on POA the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
If on break the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
The driver is recouperating on both
schrodingers cat:
Thanks , but since lets say whilst being unloaded it would be purely my choice (assuming I knew in advance the length of time it would take) whether I set my tacho to POA or break then the two should be interchangeable by all the above definitions therefore should be by law counted as one and the same.
I have been led to believe (I have no personal experience) that our European partners do count POA as break, and thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
I just want to clear up some doubts I have.
I was also lead to believe (only last week) that a driver on a course I was running had been fined £75.00 for taking a break at a TESCO RDC. VOSA locked all the drivers in the waiting room and went round them one by one. It was apparently £1 for each minute break had been illegally recorded. He was lucky - one lad had been there for 4 hours and apparently the £1 doubles after three hours It seems they should have recorded POA and VOSA took statements from all the Tesco staff saying the drivers had been advised in advance how log the POA would be. I know … just not fair eh?
Of course we all know this is no more true than saying our European partners count POA as BREAK - they don’t.
I think when it comes to the POA versus BREAK debate the important bit is whether the time is used ‘exclusively for recuperation’ and there are times the driver needs to be able to record POA as the period of time was not used exclusively for recuperation. The two activities are distinctly different.
In your example of being unloaded I could also set my tacho to WORK … so maybe WORK, POA and BREAK are interchangeable
What I can’t understand is why this would matter to you? If you set your tacho on the correct mode for the activity being undertaken - where’s the problem?
ROG:
I always wondered why POA had been brought in instead of having the three choices of driving, other work and break/rest
If on POA the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
If on break the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
The driver is recouperating on both
So what am I missing ?
I think it is whether the time is ‘exclusively’ for recuperation? Is that period of time intended for the driver to do nothing but recuperate? Or is it a period of time the driver is expected to wait with baited breath for the boss to lean outta the office door and shout go.
Personally I doubt I would ever record a POA. Break is far better.
Darb:
Just a side question, I never record POA, when I get pulled how will this be viewed ?
No problem at all as long as the activities you have recorded have matched the activities you actually did. i.e Break when doing nothing and Work when working.
There is no legal requirement to record a POA. There may be a company policy though depending where you work.
its not illegal to take a break on a bay
vis a vis i was at Tesco Fradley
and i put it on break,
ok i had to walk for 30 secs to drop in keys
but all of the 40 mins i spent there was quite pleasureable
chatting to a couple of drivers about something on telly
and having coffee how is that not a break
schrodingers cat:
thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
The digital tachograph doesn’t count the first 45 minutes of POA as break it records all POA as POA.
The EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle will be counted as break, that’s because you can’t put the second tachograph slot on break whilst the vehicle is moving.
As far as I’m aware VOSA have never had a problem with this rule.
schrodingers cat:
thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
The digital tachograph doesn’t count the first 45 minutes of POA as break it records all POA as POA.
The EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle will be counted as break, that’s because you can’t put the second tachograph slot on break whilst the vehicle is moving.
As far as I’m aware VOSA have never had a problem with this rule.
So how come if I were to set my tacho to POA for 1 hour it would reset my driving time?
schrodingers cat:
thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
The digital tachograph doesn’t count the first 45 minutes of POA as break it records all POA as POA.
The EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle will be counted as break, that’s because you can’t put the second tachograph slot on break whilst the vehicle is moving.
As far as I’m aware VOSA have never had a problem with this rule.
So how come if I were to set my tacho to POA for 1 hour it would reset my driving time?
Because a ‘valid interuption’ has taken place. But not a break. it is all about terminology.
shep532:
I was also lead to believe (only last week) that a driver on a course I was running had been fined £75.00 for taking a break at a TESCO RDC. VOSA locked all the drivers in the waiting room and went round them one by one. It was apparently £1 for each minute break had been illegally recorded. He was lucky - one lad had been there for 4 hours and apparently the £1 doubles after three hours It seems they should have recorded POA and VOSA took statements from all the Tesco staff saying the drivers had been advised in advance how log the POA would be. I know … just not fair eh?
schrodingers cat:
thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
The digital tachograph doesn’t count the first 45 minutes of POA as break it records all POA as POA.
The EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle will be counted as break, that’s because you can’t put the second tachograph slot on break whilst the vehicle is moving.
As far as I’m aware VOSA have never had a problem with this rule.
So how come if I were to set my tacho to POA for 1 hour it would reset my driving time?
Sorry I misinterpreted your post, I thought you meant that 45 minutes of POA was actually break but VOSA wouldn’t accept it, you are of course quite right that 45 minutes of POA will wrongly reset your driving time on the digital tachograph, but VOSA didn’t write the specs that the tachograph has to meet, you should blame the EU for that.
shep532:
I was also lead to believe (only last week) that a driver on a course I was running had been fined £75.00 for taking a break at a TESCO RDC. VOSA locked all the drivers in the waiting room and went round them one by one. It was apparently £1 for each minute break had been illegally recorded. He was lucky - one lad had been there for 4 hours and apparently the £1 doubles after three hours It seems they should have recorded POA and VOSA took statements from all the Tesco staff saying the drivers had been advised in advance how log the POA would be. I know … just not fair eh?
Someones winding you up mate…
i think he’s on to them
shep532:
I was also lead to believe (only last week) that a driver on a course I was running had been fined £75.00 for taking a break at a TESCO RDC. VOSA locked all the drivers in the waiting room and went round them one by one. It was apparently £1 for each minute break had been illegally recorded. He was lucky - one lad had been there for 4 hours and apparently the £1 doubles after three hours It seems they should have recorded POA and VOSA took statements from all the Tesco staff saying the drivers had been advised in advance how log the POA would be. I know … just not fair eh?
Of course we all know this is no more true than saying our European partners count POA as BREAK - they don’t.
schrodingers cat:
thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
The digital tachograph doesn’t count the first 45 minutes of POA as break it records all POA as POA.
The EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle will be counted as break, that’s because you can’t put the second tachograph slot on break whilst the vehicle is moving.
As far as I’m aware VOSA have never had a problem with this rule.
So how come if I were to set my tacho to POA for 1 hour it would reset my driving time?
Sorry I misinterpreted your post, I thought you meant that 45 minutes of POA was actually break but VOSA wouldn’t accept it, you are of course quite right that 45 minutes of POA will wrongly reset your driving time on the digital tachograph, but VOSA didn’t write the specs that the tachograph has to meet, you should blame the EU for that.
I do blame the EU for that, and thats why I thought that our European partners view POA as break or at least the first 45 minutes.
As I said I have no personal experience of commercial driving in the EU but the fct that the tacho will reset after 45 mins implies that they have different rules to us despite it being EU rules.
But really my idea for this topic is that since evrything that would allow you to select POA on the tachograph would also allow you to select break, then surely even if you have shown POA on your records then that should also be counted as break in a court of law.
P.S. I never use POA. I started this as just a discussion as I know people do use POA for whatever reason, maybe their employer doesn’t pay if the tacho is set to break but will if it’s on POA etc. But sometimes I truly believe that it’s used purely out of ignorance
Shep I said I was led to believe, I wasn’t stating it as fact which is why I used those words.
schrodingers cat:
thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
The digital tachograph doesn’t count the first 45 minutes of POA as break it records all POA as POA.
The EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle will be counted as break, that’s because you can’t put the second tachograph slot on break whilst the vehicle is moving.
As far as I’m aware VOSA have never had a problem with this rule.
So how come if I were to set my tacho to POA for 1 hour it would reset my driving time?
Sorry I misinterpreted your post, I thought you meant that 45 minutes of POA was actually break but VOSA wouldn’t accept it, you are of course quite right that 45 minutes of POA will wrongly reset your driving time on the digital tachograph, but VOSA didn’t write the specs that the tachograph has to meet, you should blame the EU for that.
I do blame the EU for that, and thats why I thought that our European partners view POA as break or at least the first 45 minutes.
As I said I have no personal experience of commercial driving in the EU but the fct that the tacho will reset after 45 mins implies that they have different rules to us despite it being EU rules.
But really my idea for this topic is that since evrything that would allow you to select POA on the tachograph would also allow you to select break, then surely even if you have shown POA on your records then that should also be counted as break in a court of law.
P.S. I never use POA. I started this as just a discussion as I know people do use POA for whatever reason, maybe their employer doesn’t pay if the tacho is set to break but will if it’s on POA etc. But sometimes I truly believe that it’s used purely out of ignorance
Shep I said I was led to believe, I wasn’t stating it as fact which is why I used those words.
This, it really annoys me that breaks aren’t paid for, it’s a legal requirement of doing the job FFS.
schrodingers cat:
thats why the digi tacho counts the first 45 mins of POA as break even though VOSA don’t accept this.
The digital tachograph doesn’t count the first 45 minutes of POA as break it records all POA as POA.
The EU have decided that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst sat in the passenger seat of a multi-manned vehicle will be counted as break, that’s because you can’t put the second tachograph slot on break whilst the vehicle is moving.
As far as I’m aware VOSA have never had a problem with this rule.
So how come if I were to set my tacho to POA for 1 hour it would reset my driving time?
Sorry I misinterpreted your post, I thought you meant that 45 minutes of POA was actually break but VOSA wouldn’t accept it, you are of course quite right that 45 minutes of POA will wrongly reset your driving time on the digital tachograph, but VOSA didn’t write the specs that the tachograph has to meet, you should blame the EU for that.
I do blame the EU for that, and thats why I thought that our European partners view POA as break or at least the first 45 minutes.
As I said I have no personal experience of commercial driving in the EU but the fct that the tacho will reset after 45 mins implies that they have different rules to us despite it being EU rules.
But really my idea for this topic is that since evrything that would allow you to select POA on the tachograph would also allow you to select break, then surely even if you have shown POA on your records then that should also be counted as break in a court of law.
P.S. I never use POA. I started this as just a discussion as I know people do use POA for whatever reason, maybe their employer doesn’t pay if the tacho is set to break but will if it’s on POA etc. But sometimes I truly believe that it’s used purely out of ignorance
Shep I said I was led to believe, I wasn’t stating it as fact which is why I used those words.
This, it really annoys me that breaks aren’t paid for, it’s a legal requirement of doing the job FFS.
my missus works in a office for a building company, she doesn’t get paid breaks and neither do the builders
ROG:
I always wondered why POA had been brought in instead of having the three choices of driving, other work and break/rest
If on POA the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
If on break the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
The driver is recouperating on both
So what am I missing ?
Rog, POA, the driver is available for work Period of Avaiability … so he is not resting as at any minute they can say here bob go get me a cuppa.
Break, is an interrupted period where he does no work at all
ROG:
I always wondered why POA had been brought in instead of having the three choices of driving, other work and break/rest
Do you really not know the answer to this, or are you playing ‘Devils Advocate’?
It has has been discussed so many times in the past, in threads you have contributed to so presumably read.
ROG:
If on POA the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
If on break the driver cannot be driving or working as that would be illegal
The driver is recouperating on both
So what am I missing ?
You have missed the RHA, FTA and every other bosses in transport association.
They lobbied for POA as an alternative to break. Many operators do not pay time on break, but they knew they wouldn’t get away with only paying 48hrs a week on average when most drivers are at work for 55 or more hours plus breaks. We can now differentiate between break and waiting time by using POA. Obviously the definition has been carefully worded, so that we don’t have to be told how long our POA will be, if we can work it out for ourselves.
POA essentially means ‘at work and available to, but not actually doing work’.
Break means ‘at work but not available to do work (because I’m on my break)’.
Fairly simple really
P.S. 48 hours pay comes from the WTD thing about your average working time over a reference period. As POA doesn’t count as Work, it doesn’t count towards that 48 hours, but it isn’t Break, so it doesn’t come under their ‘we don’t pay breaks’ rule either, so you can be paid for it.
Some drivers have said they don’t get paid for POA either. If my boss didn’t pay POA, he wouldn’t have to worry about it, he would never see it.
