GUY Big J 8LXB Tractor Unit

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
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Dennis Javelin:

tonyj105:

Bewick:
As we are on about gearboxes both Ford in the D1000 and BMC/ Leyland Mastiff used the Turner 5 speed box ( IIRC) so who manufactured the 6 speed box used in the Dodge K Series , was it ENV ? or was it an “in house” build ? I always thought a 6 speed box would have been great in the the Ford & BMC coupled to the Eaton 2 speed axle ! Just a day dream of a youngster at the time ! :unamused: :wink: Cheers Bewick.

we had a D1114 with a 6speed and eaton 2 speed axle , crackin motor
tony

Do you mean the R1114 which was the coach chassis? A few of them were bodied for non PSV use

nope a D1114 lorry, SVO from Ford , this one. specced it for drawbar work to south of france

tony

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tonyj105:

Dennis Javelin:

tonyj105:

Bewick:
As we are on about gearboxes both Ford in the D1000 and BMC/ Leyland Mastiff used the Turner 5 speed box ( IIRC) so who manufactured the 6 speed box used in the Dodge K Series , was it ENV ? or was it an “in house” build ? I always thought a 6 speed box would have been great in the the Ford & BMC coupled to the Eaton 2 speed axle ! Just a day dream of a youngster at the time ! :unamused: :wink: Cheers Bewick.

we had a D1114 with a 6speed and eaton 2 speed axle , crackin motor
tony

Do you mean the R1114 which was the coach chassis? A few of them were bodied for non PSV use

nope a D1114 lorry, SVO from Ford , this one. specced it for drawbar work to south of france

tony

Thanks for the info and pic. I’d never heard of the 1114 configuration other than on the coach chassis. Every days a schoolday :smiley: :smiley:

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TruckNetUK . Old Time Lorries . Guy Big J 8LXB Tractive Unit . Tuesday,9th February,2021 . VALKYRIE .
Gardner 8LXB Engine Sales Records To Guy Motors Ltd Have Been Published On TruckNetUK Old Time Lorries Guy Big J 8LXB Tractive Unit Thread Before :smiley: QV further

down this post… :slight_smile:

5thWheel:

Dennis Javelin:

[ZB]
Anorak:
The above evidence is as good as that which Valkyrie got from the CV Museum.

I got it from the Anson Engine Museum. The person that supplied it did say that he had already supplied it a few years ago to the BCVM. If this is the same info and it was posted previously I apologise as I hadn’t seen it. I’ve only been a member for about a year so didn’t trawl through the previous 100 odd pages. On that basis though I don’t know why the thread has continued to discuss it when what you have here seems, to me at least, to be definitive proof.

Definitive proof indeed,well done,and for the record,this is the first time those records have been seen on this site.

David

In reply to David 5thWheel: Are you sure? :question: :confused: :slight_smile:

QUOTE:-
Re: GUY Big J 8LXB Tractor Unit
Postby VALKYRIE » Tuesday,13th June, 2017 6:37 am

gingerfold wrote:
When I get a day or two to spare I will visit the Anson Engine Museum and trawl through all the 8LXB engine record sheets and find out where they went to. Every Gardner engine built since day 1, of whatever type, has its own record sheet with full details on it. And Dennis, just a point, by virtue of the fact that Guy built psvs for many years with Gardner engines it was classed as a major customer by Gardners, and the two companies had a good business relationship.

TruckNetUK,Old Times Lorries,Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units.VALKYRIE,Tuesday,13th June,2017.

Hello Gingerfold. I’ve already beaten you to it…well,I have Internet-wise,letter-wise and EMail UK-wise: I have very recently been in contact
with the Anson Engine Museum in regard to Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units,and the curator,Geoff Challinor,has sent to me via EMail attachments scanned photographs of everything that Anson Engine Museum has in regard to Gardner and Guy records in relation to the Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engine :slight_smile:
I contacted Anson Engine Museum in October 2015,and I got a response,but,due to girl problems,unfortunately I didn’t pursue the matter any further.

It was only in May - and now that ‘I’m back on top in June’,to quote the lyrics of a great Frank Sinatra song,That’s Life, :slight_smile: - June 2017 - I’ve felt like
doing serious and active Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units research again and contacting the Anson Engine Museum,and also pursuing other avenues on this matter.

Throughout this Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units Thread many TruckNetUK members have provided compelling evidence to prove that
Guy Motors did build Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units:-

1.5thWheel - David drove a Smith Of Madison Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive unit-artic.

2.Reagle I’ll Do It - he also drove a Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive unit.

3.Gazsa401’s father saw Smith Of Madison Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive units.

4.The late Saviem also saw one or two Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive unit-articulated lorries.

5.Dave The Renegade posted a photograph of Guy Big J4T,Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Diesel-Engined,4x2,Flat-Bodied,Articulated Lorry,GDS 427N,
operated by M.A.Evans. He also posted a Chaddesley Commercials,Kidderminster,Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Unit advertisement.

6.NewMercMan also posted a photograph of Guy Big J4T,Motor Panels Sleeper-Cabbed,Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Diesel-Engined,4x2 Tractive Unit,TMT 465M,operated by G.L.Baker.

7.Yours truly,VALKYRIE,posted a British Commercial Vehicle Museum - BCVM list of all the production Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Units
built by Guy Motors - 29 examples were built.This list,compiled from Guy Motors archives in the vaults and care of the BCVM,has dates,engine and
chassis numbers,customer names,etc,QV below. This list alone proves that Guy Motors built Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units.

NOTE:If I have overlooked other TruckNetUK members who have also provided evidence for these rare Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive units,I’m
sorry for overlooking you.

8.The Commercial Motor Magazine,Friday,2nd November,1973 edition,announced the Gardner 8LXB 240-250 In-Line Eight-Cylinder Diesel Engine
option in the Guy Big J 4T Tractive Unit.

9.The book,Guy Motors Limited And The Wulfrunian,Robin N.Hannay,Transport Publishing Company - TPC,1978,states on page 31 that the Gardner
8LXB engine was optional in the Guy Big J tractive unit.

10.And now for some NEW EVIDENCE - some ‘Thermonuclear Bomb Evidence’ in document form that irrefutably and objectively prove that Guy Motors designed,built and produced Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Tractive Units :smiley: This new evidence is in agreement with the BCVM list of 29
brand new Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive units :slight_smile:

As long as you have documentary evidence of this top quality you virtually do not need any photographs to prove whatever you want to prove :slight_smile:

This new ‘Thermonuclear Bomb Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units Evidence’ comes from Gardner archives in the already mentioned
Anson Engine Museum. The curator says their Gardner engine archives go up to around 1975,they’ve got nothing on Gardner after that.

I have tried to post Gardner Engine Dispatch Records in both numerical and chronological order ( with start and end dates and lowest to highest engine numbers for each of the twelve pages - if I’m enthusiastic enough to type them! :laughing: ).

These dispatch records are fascinating documents,not only do they clear up the Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units mystery,but they also document a lot of Gardner Diesel Engines that were also dispatched to Atkinson Vehicles,Bristol Commercial Vehicles,British Leyland,Daimler Transport Vehicles,ERF Ltd,Fodens Ltd,Scammell Lorries,Seddon Motors and other companies.

Gardner Engine Order-Sales To Guy Motors Cards are also published.

Geoff also EMailed an Anson Engine Museum Form.

Geoff’'s EMail letter to me:-

#Gardner.Gardner.EMail UK To Me From Geoff Challinor MBE MIDGTE MManAE,Curator Of The Anson Engine Museum,Regarding Sales Of Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Diesel Engines To Guy Motors.1.
Image

The British Commercial Vehicle Museum - BCVM list of all the 29 production Guy Big J 4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units built:-

#Gardner.Gardner.Guy Big J4T 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel-Engined 4x2 Tractive Units Production Details,Chassis Nos,Engine Nos,Dates,Operators,etc,Guy Motors archives,British Commercial Vehicle Museum.1.

Image

The twelve pages of Gardner Engine Dispatch Records which are relevant to Guy Motors:-

(NOTE 1:The engine numbers logically follow each other in ascending order,BUT some of the dates at least are seemingly back to front :confused: :unamused:)

(NOTE 2:The third column is the dispatch number)
1.
Engine Numbers: 186255-186285

Dates:21-11-1972 - 7-7-1972
#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.1
Image

Engine Numbers: 190252-190282

Dates:18-8-1973 - 7-9-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.2
Image

Engine Numbers: 190283-190313

Dates:7-9-1973 - 14-9-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.3
Image

Engine Numbers: 190590-190620

Dates:12-10-1973 - 15-10-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.4
Image

Engine Numbers: 190931-190960

Dates:26-10-1973 - 7-11-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.5
Image

Engine Numbers: 191364-191394

Dates:27-11–1973 - 13-12-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.6
Image

Engine Numbers: 191674-191704

Dates:21-12-1973 - 17-1-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.7
Image

Engine Numbers: 192389-192419

Dates:26-3-1974 - 29-3-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.8
Image

Engine Numbers: 192854-192884

Dates:12-6-1974 - 10-5-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.9
Image

Engine Numbers: 193257-193287

Dates:3-7-1974 - 21-6-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.10
Image

Engine Numbers: 193505-193535

Dates:12-7-1974 - 20-8-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.11
Image

Engine Numbers: 194217-194247

Dates:10-10-1974 - 17-9-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.12
Image

Gardner Engine Order-Sales To Guy Motors Cards:-

  2. 6 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.13
    Image

  4. 12 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.14
    Image

  6. 26 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors. A separate order for six 8LXB engines was cancelled.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.15
    Image

  8. 13 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.16
    Image

Total number of Gardner 8LXB 240-250 8-Cylinder Diesel Engines bought by Guy Motors is 57! :slight_smile:

NOTE: Guy Motors built at least 29 production Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units. Did Guy Motors build more than 29 and/or re-engined

■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and Gardner 6LXB engined Guy Big J tractive units with those remaining 28 Gardner 8LXB engines? :question:

#Gardner.Guy.Anson Engine Museum Form. Gardner Archives.17
Image

I hope that the above evidence has finally solved the Guy Big 4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Units Mystery :slight_smile: - but if you ask me,the British Commercial Vehicle Museum List of those 29 Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units solved the mystery in September 2015 on this thread
in TruckNetUK :slight_smile: And please don’t forget the evidence from other TruckNetUK members that I mentioned near the beginning of this post :slight_smile:

Meanwhile I will try to gather any other evidence,including photographs,of Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units :slight_smile:

VALKYRIE

UNQUOTE.

NOTE: If you want to see the photographs of all of the above documents clink on the following link to Page 123 of this thread,4th post down where there is eighteen

photographs,16 of which are photographs of Gardner engine sales and dispatch records,including Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Engines,some of which were sold to

Guy Motors Limited :slight_smile: The other two photographs are of Jeff Challinor’s letter to me and the British Commercial Vehicle Museum’s complete production list of

all the 29 Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 4x2 Tractive Units that were built by Guy Motors Ltd :smiley:

trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewto … start=3660

Photographs Of Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 4x2 Tractive Units.

As I pointed out in 2015 in this thread (along with the BCVM Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB production-sales list) the photographic departments of AEC,Albion,Leyland,

Guy,Scammell,etc,were all merged into one British Leyland Motor Corporation photographic department which covered all the members of the British Leyland

Truck & Bus and Special Products Divisions.Leyland Motors was the dominant member of British Leyland,so Leyland motor vehicles produced by the parent Leyland

Motors,became the number one priority of the British Leyland photographic department at the expense of the motor vehicles ranges of AEC,Albion,Guy,Scammell,

etc - these marques were covered by the photographic department but not as much as the motor vehicle range of Leyland Motors.

The Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit was a rare model - only 29 were built! :exclamation: :slight_smile: - so official and other photographs of this model are rare,plus the

priority on Leyland built motor vehicles by the photographic department probably make photographs of the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit rarer still! :exclamation: :unamused:

But there is also another factor which is overlooked by the majority of people and its this: Strikes! :exclamation: :unamused: :smiley: The Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit model

was introduced in 1973 and made an appearance at the Scottish Commercial Vehicle Motor Show at Kelvin Hall in November 1973. There could be photographs of

this Guy at the above show,including one of the Gardner 8LXB engine installed in this Guy Big J! :slight_smile: …somewhere - but where I don’t know…as yet :wink: :slight_smile:

I’ve looked for the relevant show report in the Commercial Motor Archive,and it just isn’t there :unamused: Why :question: Because some issues of Commercial Motor in the

circa October-November 1973 period were not published because of strikes by the printers of Commercial Motor.This was the period of industrial unrest,strikes,

three days a week,the miners strike,two General Elections in 1974,etc, in the 1973-1974 period and publication of Commercial Motor and other magazines stopped

several times.

As I’ve said before elsewhere on this thread:we’ve got hard documentary evidence that the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit model was produced by Guy

Motors Ltd - 29 examples were produced - objective facts! :exclamation: - so photographic evidence has now become secondary and production of the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2

Tractive Unit model has been proved :smiley:

VALKYRIE

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Bewick:
“Sharpened stick poked into the cage time” :wink: It appears to me that the hand written journal is a very rudimentary record system considering the monetary value and scarcity of the 8LXB engine at that time in the early 70’s ! :open_mouth: However it does demolish the belief that in fact it wasn’t the Big Three who were Gardners favoured customers but it was indeed Guy Motors ! :open_mouth: :open_mouth: But hold hard Lads I have a theory bearing in mind what the late Trev H maintained in that none of the Guy Apprentices he went to Tech College with ever mentioned the “Unicorn Beast” so I reckon that Guy Motors had what was known as during WW2 as a Shadow Factory i. e. “invisible” and all the 8LXB Guy Chassis poured out of this secretive facility ! Just my conspiracy theory so could the queue to hurl abuse please form up outside Bullys as that is probably where my post will be placed ! :blush: Cheers Dennis.

I’ve got my suspicions about Gardner’s sales records being held in a hand written note book that conveniently somehow got into the hands of a poster on this topic.Even Guy Motors itself didn’t list the option until 1973 together with the big power ■■■■■■■ and RR according to the article posted. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

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Dennis Javelin:

Bewick:

Dennis Javelin:

Bewick:
“Sharpened stick poked into the cage time” :wink: It appears to me that the hand written journal is a very rudimentary record system considering the monetary value and scarcity of the 8LXB engine at that time in the early 70’s ! :open_mouth: However it does demolish the belief that in fact it wasn’t the Big Three who were Gardners favoured customers but it was indeed Guy Motors ! :open_mouth: :open_mouth: But hold hard Lads I have a theory bearing in mind what the late Trev H maintained in that none of the Guy Apprentices he went to Tech College with ever mentioned the “Unicorn Beast” so I reckon that Guy Motors had what was known as during WW2 as a Shadow Factory i. e. “invisible” and all the 8LXB Guy Chassis poured out of this secretive facility ! Just my conspiracy theory so could the queue to hurl abuse please form up outside Bullys as that is probably where my post will be placed ! :blush: Cheers Dennis.

I have to admire your indefatigability Dennis. Anyway don’t shoot the messenger please :smiley: :smiley:

IIRC there have been two or three famous RN ships that bore that name ! The last one being a WW2 Aircraft Carrier ! Anyway Dennis at least your name is spelled correctly with two “N” 's as my Mam always used to tell me ! Otherwise if your name was only spelt with one “N” you would really have got some “Wellie” from me !! Plus I might have made the mistake of starting your name with a “P” and not the “D” :wink: Cheers Dennis.

Ironically HMS Indefatigable was built as part of the “Implacable Class” aircraft carriers. Rather apt on this occasion :smiley: . By the way the Dennis moniker is in respect of Dennis vehicles, my real name is Tommy.

Please accept my “humblest” Tommy------ well we can’t all be perfect can we ! :wink: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Oh! and the motors were crap also !! :frowning: :wink: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

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VALKYRIE:
TruckNetUK . Old Time Lorries . Guy Big J 8LXB Tractive Unit . Tuesday,9th February,2021 . VALKYRIE .
Gardner 8LXB Engine Sales Records To Guy Motors Ltd Have Been Published On TruckNetUK Old Time Lorries Guy Big J 8LXB Tractive Unit Thread Before :smiley: QV further

etc - these marques were covered by the photographic department but not as much as the motor vehicle range of Leyland Motors.

The Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit was a rare model - only 29 were built! :exclamation: :slight_smile: - so official and other photographs of this model are rare

Motors Ltd - 29 examples were produced - objective facts! :exclamation: - so photographic evidence has now become secondary and production of the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2

Tractive Unit model has been proved :smiley:

VALKYRIE

Which leaves the discrepancy of almost twice as many engines recorded in the hand written book as vehicles built with the option.
Also sure the previously posted article says not even an option before 1973.

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Bewick:

Bewick:
Has anyone ever built one,sold one when new,repaired one,DRIVEN one,or at least seen one or possibly got a photo (side view) showing the 8 potter sticking out the rear of the cab .

Well it’s taken over 7 years and 123 pages of debate to arrive at this comprehensive and well documented conclusion, and many thanks to “Valkery” ! Although I never disputed that there may have been an 8LXB GUY Big J produced it was just that there was a complete dearth of any concrete evidence to support the fact but the documentary evidence clearly shows that Guy received 57 8LXB engines over the period listed of which S O M were by far the largest recipients so where did all the others go ? It is reckoned that all these 8LXB’s were built by a “Ghost Squad” at Fallings Park which is why no photographic evidence is available :wink: However, the effort that has gone into producing this documentary proof has got to be applauded and is most interesting and thoroughly appreciated. Thank you, Dennis.

Long long time ago but still a relevant post ! :wink: Cheers Bewick.

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newmercman:
Bewick is quite transparent in his ■■■■ taking, there’s no malice or offence intended in any of it from what I’ve read on here, it’s just good old fashioned banter.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

I never thanked NMM for this post so many thanks Mate ! Dennis. :wink:

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Bewick:

pete 359:
hi dennis
i like everyone else has come across big j’s with several different types of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and gardner’s,but i personally have never seen one with the 8 cylinder 240! apart from the one parked outside elvis’s chipshop in grimsby! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
regards andrew

:open_mouth: :wink: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

At the start of this “elongated” thread this was the finest post ( and still is) that really summed up the intended “tongue in cheek” approach to the subject and is still relevant after all this time ! But in resurrecting this old post it must be correct as Andrew will probably have been parked behind the Big J in one of Joints motors so I wonder if he can still recall if the Big J was one of SOM’s :confused: The plot thickens as is poised to continue into the future ! :unamused: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Waiting in anticipation Bewick.

2890

To mis-quote JM Barrie:

And as Tinkerbell’s little lights faded away, they all held hands and chanted: “I DO believe in eight-pot Big-jays; I DO believe in eight-pot Big-jays….”

8ba051f42d29b24e23b3b30282e6cc0b.jpg
8ba051f42d29b24e23b3b30282e6cc0b.jpg570×572 17.8 KB

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DEANB:
Only a matter of time… :unamused: :laughing:

0

New Optional.

:confused:

2892

VALKYRIE:
TruckNetUK . Old Time Lorries . Guy Big J 8LXB Tractive Unit . Tuesday,9th February,2021 . VALKYRIE .
Gardner 8LXB Engine Sales Records To Guy Motors Ltd Have Been Published On TruckNetUK Old Time Lorries Guy Big J 8LXB Tractive Unit Thread Before :smiley: QV further

down this post… :slight_smile:

5thWheel:

Dennis Javelin:

[ZB]
Anorak:
The above evidence is as good as that which Valkyrie got from the CV Museum.

I got it from the Anson Engine Museum. The person that supplied it did say that he had already supplied it a few years ago to the BCVM. If this is the same info and it was posted previously I apologise as I hadn’t seen it. I’ve only been a member for about a year so didn’t trawl through the previous 100 odd pages. On that basis though I don’t know why the thread has continued to discuss it when what you have here seems, to me at least, to be definitive proof.

Definitive proof indeed,well done,and for the record,this is the first time those records have been seen on this site.

David

In reply to David 5thWheel: Are you sure? :question: :confused: :slight_smile:

QUOTE:-
Re: GUY Big J 8LXB Tractor Unit
Postby VALKYRIE » Tuesday,13th June, 2017 6:37 am

gingerfold wrote:
When I get a day or two to spare I will visit the Anson Engine Museum and trawl through all the 8LXB engine record sheets and find out where they went to. Every Gardner engine built since day 1, of whatever type, has its own record sheet with full details on it. And Dennis, just a point, by virtue of the fact that Guy built psvs for many years with Gardner engines it was classed as a major customer by Gardners, and the two companies had a good business relationship.

TruckNetUK,Old Times Lorries,Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units.VALKYRIE,Tuesday,13th June,2017.

Hello Gingerfold. I’ve already beaten you to it…well,I have Internet-wise,letter-wise and EMail UK-wise: I have very recently been in contact
with the Anson Engine Museum in regard to Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units,and the curator,Geoff Challinor,has sent to me via EMail attachments scanned photographs of everything that Anson Engine Museum has in regard to Gardner and Guy records in relation to the Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engine :slight_smile:
I contacted Anson Engine Museum in October 2015,and I got a response,but,due to girl problems,unfortunately I didn’t pursue the matter any further.

It was only in May - and now that ‘I’m back on top in June’,to quote the lyrics of a great Frank Sinatra song,That’s Life, :slight_smile: - June 2017 - I’ve felt like
doing serious and active Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units research again and contacting the Anson Engine Museum,and also pursuing other avenues on this matter.

Throughout this Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units Thread many TruckNetUK members have provided compelling evidence to prove that
Guy Motors did build Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units:-

1.5thWheel - David drove a Smith Of Madison Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive unit-artic.

2.Reagle I’ll Do It - he also drove a Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive unit.

3.Gazsa401’s father saw Smith Of Madison Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive units.

4.The late Saviem also saw one or two Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive unit-articulated lorries.

5.Dave The Renegade posted a photograph of Guy Big J4T,Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Diesel-Engined,4x2,Flat-Bodied,Articulated Lorry,GDS 427N,
operated by M.A.Evans. He also posted a Chaddesley Commercials,Kidderminster,Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Unit advertisement.

6.NewMercMan also posted a photograph of Guy Big J4T,Motor Panels Sleeper-Cabbed,Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Diesel-Engined,4x2 Tractive Unit,TMT 465M,operated by G.L.Baker.

7.Yours truly,VALKYRIE,posted a British Commercial Vehicle Museum - BCVM list of all the production Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Units
built by Guy Motors - 29 examples were built.This list,compiled from Guy Motors archives in the vaults and care of the BCVM,has dates,engine and
chassis numbers,customer names,etc,QV below. This list alone proves that Guy Motors built Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units.

NOTE:If I have overlooked other TruckNetUK members who have also provided evidence for these rare Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive units,I’m
sorry for overlooking you.

8.The Commercial Motor Magazine,Friday,2nd November,1973 edition,announced the Gardner 8LXB 240-250 In-Line Eight-Cylinder Diesel Engine
option in the Guy Big J 4T Tractive Unit.

9.The book,Guy Motors Limited And The Wulfrunian,Robin N.Hannay,Transport Publishing Company - TPC,1978,states on page 31 that the Gardner
8LXB engine was optional in the Guy Big J tractive unit.

10.And now for some NEW EVIDENCE - some ‘Thermonuclear Bomb Evidence’ in document form that irrefutably and objectively prove that Guy Motors designed,built and produced Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Tractive Units :smiley: This new evidence is in agreement with the BCVM list of 29
brand new Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB tractive units :slight_smile:

As long as you have documentary evidence of this top quality you virtually do not need any photographs to prove whatever you want to prove :slight_smile:

This new ‘Thermonuclear Bomb Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units Evidence’ comes from Gardner archives in the already mentioned
Anson Engine Museum. The curator says their Gardner engine archives go up to around 1975,they’ve got nothing on Gardner after that.

I have tried to post Gardner Engine Dispatch Records in both numerical and chronological order ( with start and end dates and lowest to highest engine numbers for each of the twelve pages - if I’m enthusiastic enough to type them! :laughing: ).

These dispatch records are fascinating documents,not only do they clear up the Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units mystery,but they also document a lot of Gardner Diesel Engines that were also dispatched to Atkinson Vehicles,Bristol Commercial Vehicles,British Leyland,Daimler Transport Vehicles,ERF Ltd,Fodens Ltd,Scammell Lorries,Seddon Motors and other companies.

Gardner Engine Order-Sales To Guy Motors Cards are also published.

Geoff also EMailed an Anson Engine Museum Form.

Geoff’'s EMail letter to me:-

#Gardner.Gardner.EMail UK To Me From Geoff Challinor MBE MIDGTE MManAE,Curator Of The Anson Engine Museum,Regarding Sales Of Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Diesel Engines To Guy Motors.1.
Image

The British Commercial Vehicle Museum - BCVM list of all the 29 production Guy Big J 4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units built:-

#Gardner.Gardner.Guy Big J4T 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel-Engined 4x2 Tractive Units Production Details,Chassis Nos,Engine Nos,Dates,Operators,etc,Guy Motors archives,British Commercial Vehicle Museum.1.

Image

The twelve pages of Gardner Engine Dispatch Records which are relevant to Guy Motors:-

(NOTE 1:The engine numbers logically follow each other in ascending order,BUT some of the dates at least are seemingly back to front :confused: :unamused:)

(NOTE 2:The third column is the dispatch number)
1.
Engine Numbers: 186255-186285

Dates:21-11-1972 - 7-7-1972
#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.1
Image

Engine Numbers: 190252-190282

Dates:18-8-1973 - 7-9-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.2
Image

Engine Numbers: 190283-190313

Dates:7-9-1973 - 14-9-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.3
Image

Engine Numbers: 190590-190620

Dates:12-10-1973 - 15-10-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.4
Image

Engine Numbers: 190931-190960

Dates:26-10-1973 - 7-11-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.5
Image

Engine Numbers: 191364-191394

Dates:27-11–1973 - 13-12-1973

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.6
Image

Engine Numbers: 191674-191704

Dates:21-12-1973 - 17-1-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.7
Image

Engine Numbers: 192389-192419

Dates:26-3-1974 - 29-3-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.8
Image

Engine Numbers: 192854-192884

Dates:12-6-1974 - 10-5-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.9
Image

Engine Numbers: 193257-193287

Dates:3-7-1974 - 21-6-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.10
Image

Engine Numbers: 193505-193535

Dates:12-7-1974 - 20-8-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.11
Image

Engine Numbers: 194217-194247

Dates:10-10-1974 - 17-9-1974

#Gardner.Gardner Dispatch Book Listing 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.12
Image

Gardner Engine Order-Sales To Guy Motors Cards:-

  2. 6 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.13
    Image

  4. 12 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.14
    Image

  6. 26 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors. A separate order for six 8LXB engines was cancelled.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.15
    Image

  8. 13 Gardner 8LXB Engines bought by Guy Motors.
    #Gardner.Guy Motors Order Card Listing Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Eight-Cylinder In Line Diesel Engines Supplied To Guy Motors,For Guy Big J4T Tractive Units.16
    Image

Total number of Gardner 8LXB 240-250 8-Cylinder Diesel Engines bought by Guy Motors is 57! :slight_smile:

NOTE: Guy Motors built at least 29 production Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units. Did Guy Motors build more than 29 and/or re-engined

■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and Gardner 6LXB engined Guy Big J tractive units with those remaining 28 Gardner 8LXB engines? :question:

#Gardner.Guy.Anson Engine Museum Form. Gardner Archives.17
Image

I hope that the above evidence has finally solved the Guy Big 4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Units Mystery :slight_smile: - but if you ask me,the British Commercial Vehicle Museum List of those 29 Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units solved the mystery in September 2015 on this thread
in TruckNetUK :slight_smile: And please don’t forget the evidence from other TruckNetUK members that I mentioned near the beginning of this post :slight_smile:

Meanwhile I will try to gather any other evidence,including photographs,of Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units :slight_smile:

VALKYRIE

UNQUOTE.

NOTE: If you want to see the photographs of all of the above documents clink on the following link to Page 123 of this thread,4th post down where there is eighteen

photographs,16 of which are photographs of Gardner engine sales and dispatch records,including Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Engines,some of which were sold to

Guy Motors Limited :slight_smile: The other two photographs are of Jeff Challinor’s letter to me and the British Commercial Vehicle Museum’s complete production list of

all the 29 Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 4x2 Tractive Units that were built by Guy Motors Ltd :smiley:

trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewto … start=3660

Photographs Of Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 4x2 Tractive Units.

As I pointed out in 2015 in this thread (along with the BCVM Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB production-sales list) the photographic departments of AEC,Albion,Leyland,

Guy,Scammell,etc,were all merged into one British Leyland Motor Corporation photographic department which covered all the members of the British Leyland

Truck & Bus and Special Products Divisions.Leyland Motors was the dominant member of British Leyland,so Leyland motor vehicles produced by the parent Leyland

Motors,became the number one priority of the British Leyland photographic department at the expense of the motor vehicles ranges of AEC,Albion,Guy,Scammell,

etc - these marques were covered by the photographic department but not as much as the motor vehicle range of Leyland Motors.

The Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit was a rare model - only 29 were built! :exclamation: :slight_smile: - so official and other photographs of this model are rare,plus the

priority on Leyland built motor vehicles by the photographic department probably make photographs of the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit rarer still! :exclamation: :unamused:

But there is also another factor which is overlooked by the majority of people and its this: Strikes! :exclamation: :unamused: :smiley: The Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit model

was introduced in 1973 and made an appearance at the Scottish Commercial Vehicle Motor Show at Kelvin Hall in November 1973. There could be photographs of

this Guy at the above show,including one of the Gardner 8LXB engine installed in this Guy Big J! :slight_smile: …somewhere - but where I don’t know…as yet :wink: :slight_smile:

I’ve looked for the relevant show report in the Commercial Motor Archive,and it just isn’t there :unamused: Why :question: Because some issues of Commercial Motor in the

circa October-November 1973 period were not published because of strikes by the printers of Commercial Motor.This was the period of industrial unrest,strikes,

three days a week,the miners strike,two General Elections in 1974,etc, in the 1973-1974 period and publication of Commercial Motor and other magazines stopped

several times.

As I’ve said before elsewhere on this thread:we’ve got hard documentary evidence that the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2 Tractive Unit model was produced by Guy

Motors Ltd - 29 examples were produced - objective facts! :exclamation: - so photographic evidence has now become secondary and production of the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 4x2

Tractive Unit model has been proved :smiley:

VALKYRIE

Wow,the depths you have gone to Valkyrie to provide additional proof!outstanding !!

David

2893

An M Reg SoM GUY from the Smiths photo’s I looked through none of which shone any light on the subject and although no engine badge is shown on the grille its possibly a contender with the year of manufacture. It doesn’t really help when front views of vehicles don’t have the power unit badge or name on the grille. Franky.

10528282_7537845562154942464_n-vi.jpg
10528282_7537845562154942464_n-vi.jpg800×524 35.5 KB

2894

Frankydobo:
An M Reg SoM GUY from the Smiths photo’s I looked through none of which shone any light on the subject and although no engine badge is shown on the grille its possibly a contender with the year of manufacture. It doesn’t really help when front views of vehicles don’t have the power unit badge or name on the grille. Franky.
0

That photo Frankydobo shows the Manchester based units for sale at the Manchester depot after Smiths packed it in whilst under the wing of United Transport.
You will notice an A4 piece of paper on the dash and visible through the windscreen which details the units details mileage,engine,transmission etc,a lot of Guy’s had lost their respective engine badge.

Fleet No OD 922,IIRC was a day motor powered by a ■■■■■■■ 220 with a RangeChange Fuller box,a very common spec for a lot of Smiths motors.

David

2895

5thwheel:

Frankydobo:
An M Reg SoM GUY from the Smiths photo’s I looked through none of which shone any light on the subject and although no engine badge is shown on the grille its possibly a contender with the year of manufacture. It doesn’t really help when front views of vehicles don’t have the power unit badge or name on the grille. Franky.
0

That photo Frankydobo shows the Manchester based units for sale at the Manchester depot after Smiths packed it in whilst under the wing of United Transport.
You will notice an A4 piece of paper on the dash and visible through the windscreen which details the units details mileage,engine,transmission etc,a lot of Guy’s had lost their respective engine badge.

Fleet No OD 922,IIRC was a day motor powered by a ■■■■■■■ 220 with a RangeChange Fuller box,a very common spec for a lot of Smiths motors.

David

I was pondering that shot David as I could see there was no RFL & Operator discs in the windscreens ! So what year was this when SOM closed down and was it sort of sudden like. What reason did United give for the reason for the SOM closure ? Just interested although there would have been something in the Commercial Motor etc.at the time. Thanks Dennis.

2896

5thwheel:
Fleet No OD 922,IIRC was a day motor powered by a ■■■■■■■ 220 with a RangeChange Fuller box,a very common spec for a lot of Smiths motors.

I’ve been going through the CM used truck ads for the right time scale.So far most are 220 ■■■■■■■ with a few 6 LXB’s.No 8 LXB’s.
If SoM thought that the 8 LXB was the way to go why didn’t they standardise on it across their BigJ fleet ?.What was the proportion of ■■■■■■■ v 8 LXB and why.
I’m sceptical of the inconsistent nature of the ‘records’ showing lots more engines than trucks and then no sign of an 8 LXB powered Big J anywhere when surely CM would have wanted to test one.
If anything they’ve added to the mystery rather than solved it.

2897

Bewick:

5thwheel:

Frankydobo:
An M Reg SoM GUY from the Smiths photo’s I looked through none of which shone any light on the subject and although no engine badge is shown on the grille its possibly a contender with the year of manufacture. It doesn’t really help when front views of vehicles don’t have the power unit badge or name on the grille. Franky.
0

That photo Frankydobo shows the Manchester based units for sale at the Manchester depot after Smiths packed it in whilst under the wing of United Transport.
You will notice an A4 piece of paper on the dash and visible through the windscreen which details the units details mileage,engine,transmission etc,a lot of Guy’s had lost their respective engine badge.

Fleet No OD 922,IIRC was a day motor powered by a ■■■■■■■ 220 with a RangeChange Fuller box,a very common spec for a lot of Smiths motors.

David
[/quote
I was pondering that shot David as I could see there was no RFL & Operator discs in the windscreens ! So what year was this when SOM closed down and was it sort of sudden like. What reason did United give for the reason for the SOM closure ? Just interested although there would have been something in the Commercial Motor etc.at the time. Thanks Dennis.

From memory I think it was around 1980.

Tommy

2898

This was from a 2012 article in the Comm Motor mag about Smiths, not too detailed and no real final date but it seems later than 1980. Franky.
Rumours abounded in 1968 that nationalisation was about to dawn again, so the Smiths sold out to United Transport. James and Alexander took their chance to retire, while Murray worked on with the new owners for a number of years. Partly due to its strong corporate reputation, the new owners kept the Smith identity intact for some considerable time.

During the 1990s United Transport was taken over by British Electric Traction, which was in turn bought out by Rentokil, but by this time the renowned Smith of Maddiston name had, somewhat sadly for the British transport industry, disappeared completely.

2899

If it was ‘introduced’ in November 1973 ? what were the engine orders recorded in July 1972 ? for ?.

2900

Dennis Javelin:

Bewick:

5thwheel:

Frankydobo:
An M Reg SoM GUY from the Smiths photo’s I looked through none of which shone any light on the subject and although no engine badge is shown on the grille its possibly a contender with the year of manufacture. It doesn’t really help when front views of vehicles don’t have the power unit badge or name on the grille. Franky.
0

That photo Frankydobo shows the Manchester based units for sale at the Manchester depot after Smiths packed it in whilst under the wing of United Transport.
You will notice an A4 piece of paper on the dash and visible through the windscreen which details the units details mileage,engine,transmission etc,a lot of Guy’s had lost their respective engine badge.

Fleet No OD 922,IIRC was a day motor powered by a ■■■■■■■ 220 with a RangeChange Fuller box,a very common spec for a lot of Smiths motors.

David
[/quote
I was pondering that shot David as I could see there was no RFL & Operator discs in the windscreens ! So what year was this when SOM closed down and was it sort of sudden like. What reason did United give for the reason for the SOM closure ? Just interested although there would have been something in the Commercial Motor etc.at the time. Thanks Dennis.

From memory I think it was around 1980.

Tommy

Smiths were still operating in summer 1980 as they were still doing Stainmore changeovers with j Stirland from Nottingham.I saw them regularly when on trunk.