could you please put the pic of the tassle dude on here as this post is about as dry as a witches ■■■… 
dieseldog999:
if its not too much trouble ,could you possibly elabourate on this to clarify it in such a way that would explain it in greater detail please?..
So as not to write War and Peace, is there any particular point you’d like me to elaborate on?
My basic approach is to ask the following questions of the law:
- Is it possible to conceive of a way in which work could be scheduled, so as to comply with the EU drivers’ hours rules, but in violation of other laws? I assert the answer is yes.
I’ve discussed the issue with day drivers getting only 9 hours between shifts (i.e. reduced daily rest) as a fairly clear cut example of scheduling that is insufficient for rest, although it may be sufficient for a tramper.
Another example I’ve now mentioned on this thread, is where a daytime driver is called in at short notice for a night shift lasting 15 hours, having already spent the day awake. This is not intended to be an example of the effects of reduced daily rest, but of the exhaustion that can occur long before the end-of-day rest is commenced, simply because of the length of the working hours, particularly if the circumstances prior to the shift were not favourable (and yet not involving any misconduct by the driver).
- What laws may be violated?
The answer to this firstly is that the contract of employment may be violated. There are implied terms, such as custom and practice, “trust and confidence”, etc. I don’t want to talk at length about this, but even a written contract in black and white, is still typically constrained by implied terms. The employer must also recognise the essential humanity and biology of workers - an employer cannot contract out of the need to allow rest and sleep, for example.
Secondly, there is also the public policy that illegal contracts, or demanding an illegal performance, are not enforceable. You cannot discipline a worker for refusing to do what is illegal, even if the contract is black and white, although you may be able to discipline him if he snookered himself by prior misconduct (such as if a worker turns up to work drunk, you cannot force him to drive, but you can do him for being drunk).
Thirdly, we have health and safety legislation. The scheduling of work must be done in a way that is as healthy and safe as is reasonably practicable. Again, I don’t want to talk at length in this post about H&S- I just want to be clear that such laws exist and do apply.
Fourthly, road traffic law potentially applies to drivers who would drive whilst tired, if their exhaustion has reached a point at which they cannot be expected to maintain a competent standard of driving.
if only you understood the concept of dry humour and sarcasm as well as you know transport legislation…wooooosshh
ezydriver:
A quick question on topic: If an employer asks me to do a job knowing there’s a very good chance I’ll go over 15 hours (but a chance it won’t), and says “if you run out of hours, don’t worry, we’ll rescue you”, is that legal?I’m not asking if that’s reasonable, because it isn’t. But is it legal?
If you have a sleeper cab then the firm will most likely tell you to park up and continue after a daily rest period. Our place will not send another driver to get you unless you have broken down or have cargo that needs to make the boat which normally entails a trailer change for artics or if in a rigid the new driver will take your truck and you will sleep in his truck.
F-reds:
Thing is though in Rjans example, he makes it seem like it would be ok to do a 13, and therefore be awake for 31 hours
That wasn’t my intention. Clearly, little or no work should be done in the short-notice-nightshift scenario.
We’re merely talking about 13 hours as being the general maximum shift length because the EU drivers’ hours legislation implies that this is the “normal” maximum, and rules seem to have sprouted up in the industry amongst many employers who have looked at fatigue issues that this is the maximum that a driver can be presupposed to be able to cope with.
That is simply why we began discussing whether an employer can compel a driver to go on beyond 13 hours (as opposed to asking whether he can go beyond 8, 11, or 12).
Since then some posters have asserted that an employer always has the right to work a driver to the maximum permitted by EU drivers’ hours rules, I’ve stepped in not to support the 13-hour-max-rule itself, but simply to point out that, no, an employer does not necessarily have the right to work a driver up to the maximum permitted by EU drivers’ hours rules, and that as well as applying common sense, the 13-hour-max-rule is probably a good indication of what a good rule-of-thumb looks like for an employer about how long a day they should routinely be scheduling their day drivers.
Furthermore, I’ve gone on to say that any driver who actually becomes excessively tired, is entitled to stop work. If he did so after 5 hours every day, then maybe you’d have to look at dismissing him on incapability grounds. But when drivers get to thirteen hours work a day and claim to be tired (especially if it’s a regular thing, and is also further confounded by early start times that vary daily), that starts to look less like incapability, and more like exhaustion induced by overwork.
Harry Monk:
Wiretwister:
What about the driver who has already done 3 x 13 hour days had start times slipped forward twice by an hour for operational requirements, has underlying heath issues which are managed with adequate rest? How, as a responsible employer, could you argue that while legal that praxtice is safe and satisfies your obligations under the 1974 heath and safety at work act? That was a situation I found myself in with a previous employer.I’ve been a member of TruckNet for over ten years now, and I have always said that the hours a truck driver are legally allowed to work are obscenely excessive. However, for as long as a truck driver is legally allowed to work those hours, then an employer is perfectly entitled to expect him to.
Should it be allowed? No.
Is it allowed? Yes.
Perhaps now (brexit), if there was enough drivers who agree with the above it could be debated in parliament to change the law, 13 hours maximum on shift with 11 hours rest minimum is what it should be, especially now that we have a 48 hour working week to also work round.
Rjan:
Harry Monk:
Then you completely misunderstand the law. If I employed you, and you were legally able to work 15 hours on any given day, then it would be perfectly legal for me to expect you to do it.But that puts the cart before the horse. The question is whether or not it is legal to schedule a 15 hour shift. The fact that it would comply with the EU drivers’ hours rules, does not necessarily mean it is lawful.
Saying “I’m too tired” just wouldn’t cut the mustard.
If it is said in truth, then it will cut the mustard.
If the situation has arisen because of the driver’s lifestyle or leisure choices outside work, then obviously that might be grounds for discipline.
But if the situation arises from biological imperatives, the normal vagaries of the human body, or unexpected circumstances, then that is not grounds for discipline.
With a normal 8 hour shift, obviously the situation doesn’t usually arise (most people can drag themselves through 8 hours of work, even with a very bad night’s sleep), but once you’re talking about a 15 hour shift, you’re at the outer limits of what most drivers can sustain on a good day.
Stating that there is such a thing as “British law”, which overrides eu law is just nonsense.
I’m not suggesting it does override it. I’m saying it complements it. The EU drivers’ hours rules define the absolute maximum under any (even the best and most favourable) circumstances that a driver can be required to work.
Other laws, which are more difficult to apply and require a greater degree of judgment and interpretation, ask more nuanced questions like “is this schedule as healthy and safe as reasonably practicable?”.
I totally agree that it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. End of. You are giving false information to somebody seeking to clarify a legal position. Please stop, right now.
I’m not giving any false information, although I do warn any reader that I am not saying no driver can ever be required to do 15 hours. New readers should read all of my posts on this subject (including posts on other threads previously), before jumping to any conclusions about what I’m saying.
The bold paragraph helped remind me who you remind me of! Do you remember the TV show ‘Yes Minister’? 
True, on the other hand, it didn’t send me to sleep…
Harry Monk:
OVLOV JAY:
F-reds:
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…And then Carryfast will agree, but they will argue the wording of the same point for 17 pages
With Carryfast, I think it would largely depend on what Henry Ford, Margaret Thatcher and Mussolini had to say about it.
pmsl
weeto:
Perhaps now (brexit), if there was enough drivers who agree with the above it could be debated in parliament to change the law, 13 hours maximum on shift with 11 hours rest minimum is what it should be, especially now that we have a 48 hour working week to also work round.
Grow up. While the majority of our trade is done with Europe, and done using trucks, we need to make it easy for everyone to do that. That means running on something akin to EU drivers hours rules, they already have that, so they are not going to waste their time debating it in parliament.
Rjan:
switchlogic:
Christ on a bike. Rjan, are you a politician or lawyer?I’m all three.
It would also be pretty galling to be stuck an hour from home on a Friday as well.
We have a good balance between flexibility and protection as it is. Drivers were given the choice to work an average 48 hour week if they wanted with the RTD. We also get the choice to do 15 hour days if we want. No matter what is said here, it is illegal to drive anything if you are too fatigued to do so safely. It is not a legal requirement to work to the maximum the law allows.
Example:
Boss: I want you to drive as fast as the speed limit allows, everywhere you go.
You: I can’t do that boss. It isn’t safe.
Boss: I’ll sack you if you don’t.
Same thing with hours. If you’re Cream Crackered, say so. But do it when your gaffer has a chance to cover the work, not 30 minutes from Goebbelsbastard Stores RDC.
This isn’t a Shirker’s Charter to ■■■■ your company around. No more than it is a Fagan’s Charter for the Operator. It is legislators treating us like Big Kids, drivers and operators alike. They have effectively said, look, this is the maximum that Josephine Average can do in a week. However, by giving you the flexibility to work to the extreme, we don’t want you tearing around like the Helldrivers meets the Pony Express. Therefore we are going to put the responsibility for scheduling workloads responsibly and not pushing your luck when you’re too shagged to drive with you lot. The Prime pieces of legislation are those that keep everybody safe, that is why you won’t find it written anywhere that drivers have to do these hours.
Most of us do fifteens because we can and we want to see the job done. It doesn’t take away our duty to behave in a safe way. Operators like to max the hours because amongst other things their competitors are. It doesn’t remove the onus on them to run a safe operation.
Surely we are responsible enough to work within the law safely without government having to legislate for the limpiest tired head in the industry? Do we need a law or a label to tell us everything that is or isn’t safe? Or are we able to allow government to give us latitude and exercise it responsibly?
Gone so far off topic.
Yes 13+ can be planned an expected for drivers to do it. I work for a supermarket and most of the Cornwall runs take at least 13 hours. Some ask for short runs most just crack on an get on with it.
m_attt:
Yes 13+ can be planned an expected for drivers to do it. I work for a supermarket and most of the Cornwall runs take at least 13 hours. Some ask for short runs most just crack on an get on with it.
But can the employer legally enforce their expectations, if the driver refuses on the grounds he would suffer excessive fatigue? What system for monitoring and controlling fatigue does your employer implement?
I have no problem in maxing my hours out. I tramp, so may as well be getting paid, rather than parking up early doors.
However, I regularly ring the office (they pretty much leave me alone) and say such things as. This load that you want back at the yard, that isn’t going anywhere for 2 days, will mean I’ll go about 15 minutes over a 13. Are you sure you want me to get it back, or should I park up and save a 15 for a day when we might actually need it?
Don’t think I’ve kipped on our yard so far this year
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I always feel more comfortable when I’ve got a 15 and a 10hr drive in my arse pocket to fall back on
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Harry Monk:
OVLOV JAY:
F-reds:
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…And then Carryfast will agree, but they will argue the wording of the same point for 17 pages
With Carryfast, I think it would largely depend on what Henry Ford, Margaret Thatcher and Mussolini had to say about it.
Let’s get this right.I want to return to domestic regs preferably with a revised 12 hour minimum daily rest provision.
Rjan wants to stay with the EU which imposes a 9 hour minimum daily rest provision.
If a tired driver runs off the road or into something or someone then the driver will definitely be to blame regards a charge of careless or dangerous driving.Regardless of whether the driver has exceeded any hours regs limits at all and what those limits are.EU regs probably best fitting Maggie’s or Musso’s or Hitler’s agendas in that regard. 
Don’t ask me what Henry Ford thinks about it. 
Harry Monk:
Then you completely misunderstand the law. If I employed you, and you were legally able to work 15 hours on any given day, then it would be perfectly legal for me to expect you to do it. Saying “I’m too tired” just wouldn’t cut the mustard. Stating that there is such a thing as “British law”, which overrides eu law is just nonsense.I totally agree that it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. End of. You are giving false information to somebody seeking to clarify a legal position. Please stop, right now.
Put it another way if a driver drives a vehicle while too tired to drive resulting in an accident the driver will be to blame and charged accordingly.On that note yes the road traffic act does supersede EU hours regs.IE compliance with EU hours regs is no defence against against driving while tired.
Which is another reason why Domestic regs,regarding daily rest,even their current form,are superior to EU ones.IE sufficient rest is more arguable between employer and driver than 9 hours is.
Evil8Beezle:
How jeffing true.