But the OP never mentioned having a 9 hour rest period, he asked if a driver can be instructed to do a shift of more than 13 hours, to which the answer is yes unless your contract of employment says otherwise.
There may be an exception to this if your reasonably long term usual working practice involves working less than 13 hours though.
tachograph:
But the OP never mentioned having a 9 hour rest period, he asked if a driver can be instructed to do a shift of more than 13 hours, to which the answer is yes unless your contract of employment says otherwise.
Yes, provided the driver feels he is still sufficiently alert. The minimum rest is not the only possible way the hours can become unreasonable - long working hours alone, or irregular shift patterns, can become unreasonable.
Within the EU drivers’ hours rules, a day driver may be asked to come in from his weekly rest at short notice for a night shift starting at midnight, after already having awoken at a normal time in the morning and completed a fun-filled day of demanding leisure - in this situation, clearly the driver is not going to be able to complete a 15 hour shift without falling asleep at the wheel (because it would imply being awake for about 32 hours straight), and the driver would be entitled to refuse or put limits on the nightshift (even if the employer is contractually entitled to require him to perform the work).
I have tried to capture the subtleties of this question. There is no 13 hour rule as such, only that it is accepted good practice in the industry to leave anything beyond this to the driver’s discretion.
As a further note, case law long ago established that what is accepted good practice in an industry (i.e. if many of the largest employers implement a safety rule), it is effectively a binding standard on the entire industry. That does not mean the HSE will be breaking down any doors, but if an employer tried to discipline him, then a worker could adduce such good practice as evidence of what the wider industry considers reasonable. The implication of disciplining a worker in such a situation might also classify him as a whistleblower.
tachograph:
But the OP never mentioned having a 9 hour rest period, he asked if a driver can be instructed to do a shift of more than 13 hours, to which the answer is yes unless your contract of employment says otherwise.There may be an exception to this if your reasonably long term usual working practice involves working less than 13 hours though.
Exactly, a day driver can be asked to work 15hrs and then told “come in a couple of hours later tomorrow driver”, whilst that 15hr shift still means it’s a reduced daily rest pending it doesn’t necessarily mean the driver is being overworked and or under rested, just that he has one less RDR for that week.
The rules can certainly favour one type of work pattern over another, but with so many varied working parameters and routines it’s impossible for those rules to always apply favourably toward the driver, and there is certainly doubt whether that was the rule makers intention in the first place.
Double post
Rjan:
in this situation, clearly the driver is not going to be able to complete a 15 hour shift without falling asleep at the wheel (because it would imply being awake for about 32 hours straight),
Pah! This industry is full of lightweights. 32 hours is half a shift 
Reef:
Exactly, a day driver can be asked to work 15hrs and then told “come in a couple of hours later tomorrow driver”, whilst that 15hr shift still means it’s a reduced daily rest pending it doesn’t necessarily mean the driver is being overworked and or under rested, just that he has one less RDR for that week.
But that presupposes the driver feels he is able to do the 15. If the driver says he’s dog tired after 13 (or if he reasonably believes he will be when he gets to 13, based on his past experience), then what are you going to do about that?
Go to court and ask a judge who works maybe 6 hours a day in court, that a driver on the public road could not possibly have had enough after 13 hours? Throw in the fact that he started early in the morning, and has another 30 minutes each way commute? Tell the judge that drivers with reputable employers who implement the 13 hour rule, are just pansies?
And even a driver who accepts 15 hours one day, and a start time the following day which advances by 3 hours, may still become exhausted if this continues day after day. But on the other hand, if he has large, predicable blocks of rest during his day, then he may not become exhausted at all. The human body is much more capable of adjusting to odd sleeping schedules, than it is capable of simply being run ragged without any rhythm at all.
It’s all a question of degree, but I’m keen to keep hammering home the point that just because a schedule is compliant with the EU drivers’ hours rules, does not mean under British law that it would necessarily be a reasonable or lawful order to an employee.
Drivers have got to get out of the mentality that the EU drivers’ hours rules are the only possible constraint on scheduling (although, for sure, the EU rules are the clearest and most strictly enforced).
Rjan:
It’s all a question of degree, but I’m keen to keep hammering home the point that just because a schedule is compliant with the EU drivers’ hours rules, does not mean under British law that it would necessarily be a reasonable or lawful order to an employee.
Then you completely misunderstand the law. If I employed you, and you were legally able to work 15 hours on any given day, then it would be perfectly legal for me to expect you to do it. Saying “I’m too tired” just wouldn’t cut the mustard. Stating that there is such a thing as “British law”, which overrides eu law is just nonsense.
I totally agree that it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. End of. You are giving false information to somebody seeking to clarify a legal position. Please stop, right now.
Rjan:
tachograph:
But the OP never mentioned having a 9 hour rest period, he asked if a driver can be instructed to do a shift of more than 13 hours, to which the answer is yes unless your contract of employment says otherwise.Yes, provided the driver feels he is still sufficiently alert. The minimum rest is not the only possible way the hours can become unreasonable - long working hours alone, or irregular shift patterns, can become unreasonable.
Within the EU drivers’ hours rules, a day driver may be asked to come in from his weekly rest at short notice for a night shift starting at midnight, after already having awoken at a normal time in the morning and completed a fun-filled day of demanding leisure - in this situation, clearly the driver is not going to be able to complete a 15 hour shift without falling asleep at the wheel (because it would imply being awake for about 32 hours straight), and the driver would be entitled to refuse or put limits on the nightshift (even if the employer is contractually entitled to require him to perform the work).
I have tried to capture the subtleties of this question. There is no 13 hour rule as such, only that it is accepted good practice in the industry to leave anything beyond this to the driver’s discretion.
As a further note, case law long ago established that what is accepted good practice in an industry (i.e. if many of the largest employers implement a safety rule), it is effectively a binding standard on the entire industry. That does not mean the HSE will be breaking down any doors, but if an employer tried to discipline him, then a worker could adduce such good practice as evidence of what the wider industry considers reasonable. The implication of disciplining a worker in such a situation might also classify him as a whistleblower.
if its not too much trouble ,could you possibly elabourate on this to clarify it in such a way that would explain it in greater detail please?.. 
dieseldog999:
Rjan:
tachograph:
But the OP never mentioned having a 9 hour rest period, he asked if a driver can be instructed to do a shift of more than 13 hours, to which the answer is yes unless your contract of employment says otherwise.Yes, provided the driver feels he is still sufficiently alert. The minimum rest is not the only possible way the hours can become unreasonable - long working hours alone, or irregular shift patterns, can become unreasonable.
Within the EU drivers’ hours rules, a day driver may be asked to come in from his weekly rest at short notice for a night shift starting at midnight, after already having awoken at a normal time in the morning and completed a fun-filled day of demanding leisure - in this situation, clearly the driver is not going to be able to complete a 15 hour shift without falling asleep at the wheel (because it would imply being awake for about 32 hours straight), and the driver would be entitled to refuse or put limits on the nightshift (even if the employer is contractually entitled to require him to perform the work).
I have tried to capture the subtleties of this question. There is no 13 hour rule as such, only that it is accepted good practice in the industry to leave anything beyond this to the driver’s discretion.
As a further note, case law long ago established that what is accepted good practice in an industry (i.e. if many of the largest employers implement a safety rule), it is effectively a binding standard on the entire industry. That does not mean the HSE will be breaking down any doors, but if an employer tried to discipline him, then a worker could adduce such good practice as evidence of what the wider industry considers reasonable. The implication of disciplining a worker in such a situation might also classify him as a whistleblower.
if its not too much trouble ,could you possibly elabourate on this to clarify it in such a way that would explain it in greater detail please?..
Yeah, CF would have used 3 times as many words as this! 
Harry Monk:
Rjan:
It’s all a question of degree, but I’m keen to keep hammering home the point that just because a schedule is compliant with the EU drivers’ hours rules, does not mean under British law that it would necessarily be a reasonable or lawful order to an employee.Then you completely misunderstand the law. If I employed you, and you were legally able to work 15 hours on any given day, then it would be perfectly legal for me to expect you to do it. Saying “I’m too tired” just wouldn’t cut the mustard. Stating that there is such a thing as “British law”, which overrides eu law is just nonsense.
I totally agree that it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. End of. You are giving false information to somebody seeking to clarify a legal position. Please stop, right now.
Your employer has a duty of care. Not just to yourself but also the general public.
If you was to turn round to me (as your employer) and state you was too tired I could not legally expect you to complete said task. If you then had an accident it would be myself in the court of law because you have made me aware that you are not fit to continue.
I wouldn’t expect you to drive over the limit so how can I expect you to drive tired?
We all know bosses will promise you the earth to get ‘this quick job’ done but they will also be held responsible if something happens.
Timmo
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Harry Monk:
Rjan:
It’s all a question of degree, but I’m keen to keep hammering home the point that just because a schedule is compliant with the EU drivers’ hours rules, does not mean under British law that it would necessarily be a reasonable or lawful order to an employee.Then you completely misunderstand the law. If I employed you, and you were legally able to work 15 hours on any given day, then it would be perfectly legal for me to expect you to do it. Saying “I’m too tired” just wouldn’t cut the mustard. Stating that there is such a thing as “British law”, which overrides eu law is just nonsense.
I totally agree that it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. End of. You are giving false information to somebody seeking to clarify a legal position. Please stop, right now.
What about the driver who has already done 3 x 13 hour days had start times slipped forward twice by an hour for operational requirements, has underlying heath issues which are managed with adequate rest? How, as a responsible employer, could you argue that while legal that praxtice is safe and satisfies your obligations under the 1974 heath and safety at work act? That was a situation I found myself in with a previous employer.
switchlogic:
Rjan:
in this situation, clearly the driver is not going to be able to complete a 15 hour shift without falling asleep at the wheel (because it would imply being awake for about 32 hours straight),Pah! This industry is full of lightweights. 32 hours is half a shift
surely a 64 hour shift is referring to shunters,not drivers.(at least that’s what it refers to over here).
dieseldog999:
switchlogic:
Rjan:
in this situation, clearly the driver is not going to be able to complete a 15 hour shift without falling asleep at the wheel (because it would imply being awake for about 32 hours straight),Pah! This industry is full of lightweights. 32 hours is half a shift
surely a 64 hour shift is referring to shunters,not drivers.(at least that’s what it refers to over here).
Thing is though in Rjans example, he makes it seem like it would be ok to do a 13, and therefore be awake for 31 hours 
Rjan:
Within the EU drivers’ hours rules, a day driver may be asked to come in from his weekly rest at short notice for a night shift starting at midnight, after already having awoken at a normal time in the morning and completed a fun-filled day of demanding leisure - in this situation, clearly the driver is not going to be able to complete a 15 hour shift without falling asleep at the wheel (because it would imply being awake for about 32 hours straight), and the driver would be entitled to refuse or put limits on the nightshift (even if the employer is contractually entitled to require him to perform the work).
You’re mixing and mismatching employment laws with drivers regulations, I’m not too well up on employment laws but I’m pretty sure that in general an employer cannot phone you at short notice and demand that you cut your weekly rest short, but that has nothing to do with drivers regulations it’s the same in any industry.
Of course there are exceptions where people are expected to be on call but that’s not the topic of discussion here.
Sorry but your example is completely irrelevant to the OPs question about being planned for shifts over 13 hours
Rjan:
Drivers have got to get out of the mentality that the EU drivers’ hours rules are the only possible constraint on scheduling (although, for sure, the EU rules are the clearest and most strictly enforced).
I agree to some extent, but equally drivers have to understand that an employer is running a business not a charity, and if the driver is regularly unable to comply with reasonable requests he will be putting his job at risk.
There are people who would have us believe that it’s OK to walk into work in the morning and tell the TM “I can only do a short shift today because I couldn’t be arsed to get enough sleep last night, so you’ll have to reschedule the runs today”, most people are not often going to get away with that sort of crap.
Wiretwister:
What about the driver who has already done 3 x 13 hour days had start times slipped forward twice by an hour for operational requirements, has underlying heath issues which are managed with adequate rest? How, as a responsible employer, could you argue that while legal that praxtice is safe and satisfies your obligations under the 1974 heath and safety at work act? That was a situation I found myself in with a previous employer.
I’ve been a member of TruckNet for over ten years now, and I have always said that the hours a truck driver are legally allowed to work are obscenely excessive. However, for as long as a truck driver is legally allowed to work those hours, then an employer is perfectly entitled to expect him to.
Should it be allowed? No.
Is it allowed? Yes.
I was working a 9 hour day then I got reading Rjans posts whilst waiting for paperwork. I’m now on a 15
A quick question on topic: If an employer asks me to do a job knowing there’s a very good chance I’ll go over 15 hours (but a chance it won’t), and says “if you run out of hours, don’t worry, we’ll rescue you”, is that legal?
I’m not asking if that’s reasonable, because it isn’t. But is it legal?
ezydriver:
A quick question on topic: If an employer asks me to do a job knowing there’s a very good chance I’ll go over 15 hours (but a chance it won’t), and says “if you run out of hours, don’t worry, we’ll rescue you”, is that legal?I’m not asking if that’s reasonable, because it isn’t. But is it legal?
Legally, for EU regulations travelling time to or from a vehicle that is neither at the drivers home or base cannot be counted as rest, so if you’ve done 15 hours you cannot legally be recovered.
Harry Monk:
Rjan:
Just because the written contract can conceivably require you to do something, the employer still needs to be reasonable and comply with the implied (unwritten) terms of your employment contract - and at the outer limits of human capability, that might include taking feedback from individual workers about what they feel able to do.An employer can take disciplinary action against an employee who refuses to carry out a reasonable instruction, and the law decides what hours are reasonable for a lorry driver to work.
I’m not saying I agree with that situation- in fact I think the hours an HGV driver can legally be required to work are outrageous- but the OP asked for the legal position, and that, unfortunately, is it.
GV262 drivers descretion " a driver MAY reduce! " gives it away Harry. Might not be legal, but yellowbellies who EAT SNICKERS I mean are marathon men coz they can! Tired/ fatigued drivers KILL! Please think of the children.
Harry Monk:
Then you completely misunderstand the law. If I employed you, and you were legally able to work 15 hours on any given day, then it would be perfectly legal for me to expect you to do it.
But that puts the cart before the horse. The question is whether or not it is legal to schedule a 15 hour shift. The fact that it would comply with the EU drivers’ hours rules, does not necessarily mean it is lawful.
Saying “I’m too tired” just wouldn’t cut the mustard.
If it is said in truth, then it will cut the mustard.
If the situation has arisen because of the driver’s lifestyle or leisure choices outside work, then obviously that might be grounds for discipline.
But if the situation arises from biological imperatives, the normal vagaries of the human body, or unexpected circumstances, then that is not grounds for discipline.
With a normal 8 hour shift, obviously the situation doesn’t usually arise (most people can drag themselves through 8 hours of work, even with a very bad night’s sleep), but once you’re talking about a 15 hour shift, you’re at the outer limits of what most drivers can sustain on a good day.
Stating that there is such a thing as “British law”, which overrides eu law is just nonsense.
I’m not suggesting it does override it. I’m saying it complements it. The EU drivers’ hours rules define the absolute maximum under any (even the best and most favourable) circumstances that a driver can be required to work.
Other laws, which are more difficult to apply and require a greater degree of judgment and interpretation, ask more nuanced questions like “is this schedule as healthy and safe as reasonably practicable?”.
I totally agree that it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. End of. You are giving false information to somebody seeking to clarify a legal position. Please stop, right now.
I’m not giving any false information, although I do warn any reader that I am not saying no driver can ever be required to do 15 hours. New readers should read all of my posts on this subject (including posts on other threads previously), before jumping to any conclusions about what I’m saying.