I know all the rules about it but a driver last week told me that we do not have to do it as it is at the drivers discression to use. He isisted an employer can only ask you to work 13hrs the remaining 2 are to be used as a driver aid to suit his/her needs.
Anyone else know this■■?
Don’t believe everything you hear in a Tesco RDC. 
Done to death a million times. If you have one available and your contract states you can work up to 15 hours, they can request it. If you do it or refuse all depends on how easy or hard you like your working life. Personally I like to do mine by Wednesday so I get an early finish or a night out on Friday, whichever suits me that week
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…
F-reds:
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…
And then Carryfast will agree, but they will argue the wording of the same point for 17 pages 
OVLOV JAY:
F-reds:
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…And then Carryfast will agree, but they will argue the wording of the same point for 17 pages
With Carryfast, I think it would largely depend on what Henry Ford, Margaret Thatcher and Mussolini had to say about it.
I know it’s been done and done over and over I’ve just never actually heard the angle he took. He even said it is illegal for an employer to ask you to go over 13. It’s needs to be a mutual agreement between driver and employer.
red7jase:
I know it’s been done and done over and over I’ve just never actually heard the angle he took. He even said it is illegal for an employer to ask you to go over 13. It’s needs to be a mutual agreement between driver and employer.
It’s legal for an employer to require an employee to do anything which is legal. Working 15 hours is legal (provided the driver has not used up his reduced rest allowances for that week), therefore an employer is completely within his rights to require an employee to do it.
Whether it should be legally permissible is another question entirely, but for as long as it is then an employee would be disobeying a reasonable instruction if he refused to do it and would leave himself wide-open to disciplinary action.
Basically, what your friend is saying is “lorry driver ■■■■■■■■”.
Harry Monk:
OVLOV JAY:
F-reds:
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…And then Carryfast will agree, but they will argue the wording of the same point for 17 pages
With Carryfast, I think it would largely depend on what Henry Ford, Margaret Thatcher and Mussolini had to say about it.
Ooh Harry, you are awful.
But I do like you.
red7jase:
I know it’s been done and done over and over I’ve just never actually heard the angle he took. He even said it is illegal for an employer to ask you to go over 13. It’s needs to be a mutual agreement between driver and employer.
I think even Rjan wouldn’t say it’s illegal to ask a driver to go over his 13
Harry Monk:
OVLOV JAY:
F-reds:
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…And then Carryfast will agree, but they will argue the wording of the same point for 17 pages
With Carryfast, I think it would largely depend on what Henry Ford, Margaret Thatcher and Mussolini had to say about it.
Don’t forget Keynes
Either way it’s all Socialism’s fault.
Harry Monk:
red7jase:
I know it’s been done and done over and over I’ve just never actually heard the angle he took. He even said it is illegal for an employer to ask you to go over 13. It’s needs to be a mutual agreement between driver and employer.It’s legal for an employer to require an employee to do anything which is legal. Working 15 hours is legal (provided the driver has not used up his reduced rest allowances for that week), therefore an employer is completely within his rights to require an employee to do it.
Whether it should be legally permissible is another question entirely, but for as long as it is then an employee would be disobeying a reasonable instruction if he refused to do it and would leave himself wide-open to disciplinary action.
Basically, what your friend is saying is “lorry driver ■■■■■■■■”.
My thought exactly.
Hence the query on here 
Terry T:
Either way it’s all Socialism’s fault.
It’s like your trying to turn this thread into a jam jar filled with sugar water to keep them off of the sausage rolls.
F-reds:
red7jase:
I know it’s been done and done over and over I’ve just never actually heard the angle he took. He even said it is illegal for an employer to ask you to go over 13. It’s needs to be a mutual agreement between driver and employer.I think even Rjan wouldn’t say it’s illegal to ask a driver to go over his 13
Indeed. I’ve gone into more detail in previous posts on this subject.
Just because the written contract can conceivably require you to do something, the employer still needs to be reasonable and comply with the implied (unwritten) terms of your employment contract - and at the outer limits of human capability, that might include taking feedback from individual workers about what they feel able to do.
The employer also needs to schedule work in a manner that is reasonably safe and healthy (independently of anything your contract says). Again, at the outer limits, more credibility will be given to a worker who says he is simply too tired and does not feel it is safe to go on further, and the employer cannot retaliate against a worker who does this.
A 13 hours maximum is a good rule of thumb, but ultimately there is no specific rule in this respect. It’s a case of looking at the overall demands of your work, and looking at your own irreducible needs like your commuting time and your need for sleep.
I’ve mentioned previously that I’m of the view that the 9 hour reduced rests are not sufficient for day drivers, and this is why most reputable firms have woken up to the issue and have implemented some kind of 13-hour rule.
Rjan:
Just because the written contract can conceivably require you to do something, the employer still needs to be reasonable and comply with the implied (unwritten) terms of your employment contract - and at the outer limits of human capability, that might include taking feedback from individual workers about what they feel able to do.
An employer can take disciplinary action against an employee who refuses to carry out a reasonable instruction, and the law decides what hours are reasonable for a lorry driver to work.
I’m not saying I agree with that situation- in fact I think the hours an HGV driver can legally be required to work are outrageous- but the OP asked for the legal position, and that, unfortunately, is it.
Harry Monk:
Rjan:
Just because the written contract can conceivably require you to do something, the employer still needs to be reasonable and comply with the implied (unwritten) terms of your employment contract - and at the outer limits of human capability, that might include taking feedback from individual workers about what they feel able to do.An employer can take disciplinary action against an employee who refuses to carry out a reasonable instruction, and the law decides what hours are reasonable for a lorry driver to work.
I agree, but it has to be a reasonable instruction. Just because your written contract says “any duties as required” for example, doesn’t mean the employer can require the accountant to get up a ladder and fix the roof, because that would breach the implied terms.
The instruction must also be lawful. Just because the law specifies the maximum working hours, does not mean it is always safe or reasonable to go to the maximum. For example, there are maximum speed limits, but it does not mean the employer can instruct you never to drive slower than the maximum, when the road conditions require slower speeds.
As for working hours, there are wide-ranging and overriding laws, such as those covering health and safety, which are separate but apply simultaneously with laws such as the drivers’ hours rules, which may mean that what is permitted under one regime (the hours rules) is not permitted under another (health and safety).
I’m not saying I agree with that situation- in fact I think the hours an HGV driver can legally be required to work are outrageous- but the OP asked for the legal position, and that, unfortunately, is it.
Yes, the legal position is as I’ve stated it here and elsewhere, which is murky, grey, and it’s enforcement is loaded in the employer’s favour. But just because something is grey does not mean it is unenforceable in any situation, or completely non-existent.
Malice aforethought is “grey” in that it encompasses a wide range and complexion of behaviours, and what seems like murder to one eye may not to another, and physical acts that would be murder in one context are not in another, but that doesn’t mean no such law on murder exists. The same is true for health and safety matters.
The most black and white example so far has been about the need for a day driver’s rest period between shifts to incorporate as a minimum both his commuting time and a reasonable period for sleep, together with at least some minimum period for other irreducible needs. If the employer is expecting a day driver to work 15 hours a day and then go without sleep, that will never be a reasonable or lawful order.
The position for a tramper would be different. Commuting time does not need to be factored into his minimum rest, which is a reason why the hours rules (which do not deal specifically with different working conditions or patterns) permit as little as 9 hours continuous rest, because in some contexts it is possible and reasonable to get way with as little as 9 hours.
Christ on a bike. Rjan, are you a politician or lawyer?
F-reds:
Rjan has currently burned through two keyboards writing a response to this. Expect a masters degree length reply sometime tomorrow morning…
Stop setting challenges!
switchlogic:
Christ on a bike. Rjan, are you a politician or lawyer?
I’m all three.