Getting charged for minor damage

[harry_monk]

kr79:
Bit of a change there mr monk I remember a thread a couple of years back about a guy who jumped the fith wheel and smashed the granny out of a fridge on two occasions. You said its wrong for the firm to expect the driver to pay and you wouldn’t.

Not two occasions, once.

A notorious firm of shysters from Lympne who went bust, knocked their drivers for outstanding wages and had started up again within a fortnight under a different name, having a history of doing that before. I hope you aren’t defending them.

I said it was wrong then to stop that money and I say the same again now. So where’s the change?

[saaamon]

newmercman:

Harry Monk:

newmercman:
If a forklift driver damaged your lorry, say that he was loading a pallet on top of the load and was really concentrating on looking up to make sure he never hit your roof or damaged the goods, yet he rammed the mast of the forklift into your diesel tank and put a big dent in it, would you just accept that as a cost of doing business, or would you want some money from somebody

Yes, I would want the damage paid for by the employer of the fork-lift driver, or his insurer. I very much doubt that fork-lift drivers get money stopped from their wages if they cause damage, if that is what you are suggesting happens.

There is no way in the world that I would deduct wages from a driver I employed for causing wear and tear. “Wear” is the natural decline of drivelines, brake pads etc, “Tear” is the inevitable damage caused accidentally and occasionally whenever machinery is operated. If I couldn’t cope with the costs of both Wear and Tear then I just wouldn’t employ a human being.

The post I made didn’t mention anything about wear and tear

I was talking about incompetence, or even just being human, as someone who has to pay for other people’s mistakes you have the right to be angry about it and want compensation, yes, it happens, sometimes it’s just one of those things, but other times it’s down to a case of people not giving a toss, an honest mistake is part of life, but wanton destruction by people who don’t care is a different case entirely

Its a pretty good way to ■■■■ off your employees, remember these guys are working for you, earning your company money.

[the_sarge]

Harry Monk:

newmercman:
I have mixed feelings on this subject, as a former operator I think that drivers should have to put their hand in their pocket after making a careless mistake, it is not an accident at all most of the time, it is carelessness or rather couldn’tcarelessness that causes most minor knocks, so why should the owner of the vehicle have to pay for the incompetence of his/her employees

But would you deduct money from the wages of a traffic clerk if the company lost money as a result of him/her giving a driver the wrong address, as happens all the time?

Good point! I’ll remember that if the subject ever arises in the future

[newmercman]

Saaamon, I never said that it was right to stop someone’s wages, just as I never said it was right to damage something and not have to pay out for it, there are two sides to the argument and that was what I was trying to highlight

Every situation is different, an isolated case where a driver knocks a step off is part of doing business, but if the same bloke knocks a step off regularly then I would give him a choice, pay for your damage or ■■■■ off and find another job

I had a driver who had three accidents in a couple of months, each time the insurance company judged in my favour and I managed to get my excess paid too, but even though the accidents were not the driver’s fault, the way he drove did make it easier for someone to crash into him

I had another driver who knocked a tree down and ripped the side out of a trailer, he had a brain ■■■■ and turned far too early, but it was an isolated case, other than that he took very good care of the lorry and did a good job, but on that day he was a total numpty and cost me a bloody fortune, who would think a tree could cost so much I never stopped a penny out of his wages

Another driver really looked after the lorry and all that, but he kept leaving the tacho drawer open when he pulled his card at night and hitting it with his head in the mornings, after the third new one, I told him that the next one was coming out of his wages and he signed a letter to that effect, sure enough the new one didn’t last a week and he got less than he bargained for in his wage packet as a result, funnily enough, it was the last one I ever bought for that lorry

I never had a real problem with damage, but if I had more lorries the law of averages says I would have, so I would introduce a bonus of 50quid a week, bend my lorry by carelessness/incompetence/silly preventable mistake and you lose the 50quid, bend it twice within a month and you lose it for two weeks, three times and it’s three weeks, four times and ■■■■ off out of my yard

Comments have been made that you wouldn’t have to pay for a chair in an office if it got broken, but that’s wrong, because if you broke an office chair by incompetence or total disregard for it, then you can bet your ■■■■■■■■ that you would get sacked if it happened more than once

[saaamon]

newmercman:
Saaamon, I never said that it was right to stop someone’s wages, just as I never said it was right to damage something and not have to pay out for it, there are two sides to the argument and that was what I was trying to highlight

Every situation is different, an isolated case where a driver knocks a step off is part of doing business, but if the same bloke knocks a step off regularly then I would give him a choice, pay for your damage or [zb] off and find another job

I had a driver who had three accidents in a couple of months, each time the insurance company judged in my favour and I managed to get my excess paid too, but even though the accidents were not the driver’s fault, the way he drove did make it easier for someone to crash into him

I had another driver who knocked a tree down and ripped the side out of a trailer, he had a brain ■■■■ and turned far too early, but it was an isolated case, other than that he took very good care of the lorry and did a good job, but on that day he was a total numpty and cost me a bloody fortune, who would think a tree could cost so much I never stopped a penny out of his wages

Another driver really looked after the lorry and all that, but he kept leaving the tacho drawer open when he pulled his card at night and hitting it with his head in the mornings, after the third new one, I told him that the next one was coming out of his wages and he signed a letter to that effect, sure enough the new one didn’t last a week and he got less than he bargained for in his wage packet as a result, funnily enough, it was the last one I ever bought for that lorry

I never had a real problem with damage, but if I had more lorries the law of averages says I would have, so I would introduce a bonus of 50quid a week, bend my lorry by carelessness/incompetence/silly preventable mistake and you lose the 50quid, bend it twice within a month and you lose it for two weeks, three times and it’s three weeks, four times and [zb] off out of my yard

Comments have been made that you wouldn’t have to pay for a chair in an office if it got broken, but that’s wrong, because if you broke an office chair by incompetence or total disregard for it, then you can bet your ■■■■■■■■ that you would get sacked if it happened more than once

That was quite a reply, good read though. I think the way you did things was very fair, it wasnt the impression i was getting from your other posts. £50 per week for a bonus seems an awful of money, i’d be chuffed to bits if i was bought a drink.

[newmercman]

Pay peanuts, you get monkeys

If you want to get and keep decent drivers you have to pay them decent money, long term it makes financial sense as they may only earn you as much as a peanut earning monkey would, but they don’t cost you as much in the process

[waynedl]

No they don’t and I wouldn’t work for any firm that charges for damages.

I’ve also not damaged a truck in 4 years (lost a mud flap 4yrs ago), but that doesn’t mean I won’t tomorrow or the next day.

I’m with NMM, a bonus scheme is fair, give you £x per week if you don’t bend anything, but if you do, you lose your bonus for x weeks until damage is paid off or the boss thinks you’ve learned your lesson.

I’ve no objections to losing a bonus and the bonus wouldn’t be in my calculations when deciding if I can afford to take the job or not, but the wages would be.
Wages are earnings, I go to work for £x per hour or £■■ per day or £xxxxx per year, and that’s the minimum I expect to earn.
Surely National Minimum Wage would have something to say about these firms that dock your wages after an accident?

If people just refused to work for crooks like this, then they’d either shape up or ship out.

Speaking of crooks, saw a Combes Valley truck yesterday in the services, rather nice looking Actros V8 - after the comments about the age of the trucks I noticed - so decided to have a quick chat with the driver about the salary… He was the 1 Polish driver that they have - was 1 wasn’t it??

[nate]

ROG:
A driver cannot legally be made to pay unless it is specifically stated in their contract and IMO no sensible driver would sign such a contract

it’s in our contract. only damage that’s happened while i’ve had the truck is the nsf step breaking (40 stone punter + plastic step = comedy) and a marker light caught on a kerb. had one in my toolbox, so just changed it, as it’s easier than arsing about with paperwork

the last few places i’ve worked gave you 1 “free” bump, after that you had to start paying. i had 2. caught a drizzle guard on a shop front that was overhanging the road with the mirror arm. broke all 3 ns mirrors, smashed the door window, rippe the drizzle guard off and shattered the shop window. after 6 months, insurance settled as not my fault, as they’re not allowed to overhang the road and the shop’s liability cover had to pay out for the truck

2nd one i ran over a roadworks sign (not the frame, just the flat sign) figuring that a big flat bit of steel on the road couldn’t do much damage. by the time the front wheel had been over it, it wasn’t flat anymore. it flicked up and took the lines out of one of the air tanks, and i stopped very quickly. that was on the roundabout at turnpike when they’d just started building the new road. stuck on the roundabout blocking both lanes for an hour waiting for a wrecker

[dessy]

Went to an interview the other week(agency),great hourly rate and local work! Done all the necessary form filling and was had an A4 sheet of paper and in the middle of which I saw a £750 excess to be paid by the driver for negligent damage! I refused to sign and walked out! Thanks but No Thanks!

I work to earn a living and will never deliberately damage anyones property!
I know insurance is expensive but bleeding hell!

[nate]

newmercman:
So a compromise needs to be reached, both sides have a valid argument as to why they should not have to pay out for damage. The best way I can think is to have a bonus scheme that you get if you don’t bend your lorry and you lose if you do, it may not pay for all the damage, so the owner loses out a little, but on the other hand it may stop a lot of the damage that’s done by the couldn’tcarelessers out there, so overall everyone’s a winner

in my yoof, i was a white van man. drove for a company for 7 years who had that kinda scheme. bonus was awarded quarterly and paid annually just before xmas, for not stuffing the van and for getting all van related paperwork done and in on time. in the time i worked for them, i was one of only 2 drivers who never lost a bonus payment

[10-08]

IMO there is a massive difference between accidents and abuse. It’s ok to have accidents even if they’re really stupid ones or you have a run of bad luck with them but if you are doing damage because you don’t care that’s a completely different thing.

[silver_surfer]

Screenwash in the clutch fluid, brilliant. Almost as good as one of my drivers who put ad blue in the screen wash, was like christmas had come all over the front of the cab, stank for ages in the cab as well.

Anyone who says theyve never dinged a wagon or trailee is full of ■■■■ though.

[kr79]

Harry Monk:

kr79:
Bit of a change there mr monk I remember a thread a couple of years back about a guy who jumped the fith wheel and smashed the granny out of a fridge on two occasions. You said its wrong for the firm to expect the driver to pay and you wouldn’t.

Not two occasions, once.

A notorious firm of shysters from Lympne who went bust, knocked their drivers for outstanding wages and had started up again within a fortnight under a different name, having a history of doing that before. I hope you aren’t defending them.

I said it was wrong then to stop that money and I say the same again now. So where’s the change?

But it would be ok to deduct an office bods wages for a mistake?

[harry_monk]

No, it wouldn’t be. That’s what I’m saying. It wouldn’t be right to deduct the cost of the wasted diesel from a traffic clerk’s wages if he made a mistake and equally it isn’t right to deduct losses from a driver’s wages if he makes a mistake.

[newmercman]

Harry Monk:
No, it wouldn’t be. That’s what I’m saying. It wouldn’t be right to deduct the cost of the wasted diesel from a traffic clerk’s wages if he made a mistake and equally it isn’t right to deduct losses from a driver’s wages if he makes a mistake.

Ok, let’s look at this from a diferent perspective.

A professional driver is someone that is paid to perform a job.

That job is to collect stuff at point A and deliver it to point B in a professional manner, which includes not demolishing anything along the way, so if the driver does mangle the lorry during the course of the day’s work, then they have not done the whole job of being a professional lorry driver, so do they deserve to be paid for it

[harry_monk]

Let’s just agree to disagree.

[newmercman]

I’m in agreement with you, to a point

No, you don’t stop money from someone’s wages, but if you have a problem with minor damage due to carlessness, then my bonus scheme idea is the way I would do it

[robroy]

ROG:
A driver cannot legally be made to pay unless it is specifically stated in their contract and IMO no sensible driver would sign such a contract

A lot of our drivers did sign, I refused on the basis that the crap wage paid would absorb the cost of any potential damage I could do. A lot of todays drivers will agree to any old crap that is chucked at them, no balls or backbone, I’ve been there for nearly 3yrs now no damage, maybe I’ve just been lucky, if I did any I would expect a bollocking, regular damage…the bullet…fair play, but any attempt to dock my wages I would go ape-sh…THAT IS WHAT INSURANCE IS FOR, it is not the job of a driver to compensate for the high cost of insurance premiums, if the rates and profits are so tight that firms cannot afford to cover unseen costs that says a lot for the industry that we are in! Before anybody says anything from a boss’s point of view about bolshy drivers, I did own a small haulage firm at one (bad ) time in my life.

[merc0447]

Companies that chase their drivers for 10quid for a mirror cover are scraping the barrel, a better alternative would be 100 quid bonus at Christmas if you’ve had no damage all year.

[waynedl]

newmercman:

Harry Monk:
No, it wouldn’t be. That’s what I’m saying. It wouldn’t be right to deduct the cost of the wasted diesel from a traffic clerk’s wages if he made a mistake and equally it isn’t right to deduct losses from a driver’s wages if he makes a mistake.

Ok, let’s look at this from a diferent perspective.

A professional driver is someone that is paid to perform a job.

That job is to collect stuff at point A and deliver it to point B in a professional manner, which includes not demolishing anything along the way, so if the driver does mangle the lorry during the course of the day’s work, then they have not done the whole job of being a professional lorry driver, so do they deserve to be paid for it

So, I still agree with NMM’s bonus scheme, but I would change it slightly. A mirror is around 100 quid? I don’t know, a ball park figure, so if you broke a mirror, you’ve lost your bonus for 2 weeks (mirror paid for, wages not touched = win win), you break a headlight costing £150? Again, no idea, you’ve lost it for 3 weeks.
Have a maximum of say a month for a real balls up so there’s still incentive for them to stay, otherwise I think they’d jump ship before you’ve had your bonus money off them lol.

As you said, 3 times and you’re on a final written, learn to drive or ■■■■ off flipping burgers.

I disagree with what you said about the lad ‘putting himself where people can hit him’ though NMM, I drove busses on service routes, and the amount of times the bus was hit whilst stationary, at a bus stop, sometimes had been there a good length of time too.

The other side of the coin, you start touching a drivers wages, he starts driving agressively due to being ■■■■■■ off, fuel disappears at an alarming rate, tyres being worn, risk of accident increases etc.
I know by driving like a tart, I can usually get around 10mpg out of the Merc’s at our place (according to the computer), when in a rush though it’s down to 8ish, average since the truck was new is 7.7mpg. So, the difference on 1 day of 10mpg and 7.7mpg is 2.3mpg, average day for me is around 350 miles now I’m on days. 350 / 10mpg = 35 gallons, 350 / 7.7 = 45 gallons. And that’s comparing driving sedately to driving averagely. I wonder what mpg’s it does when drove in anger? 5mpg??
10 gallons average days savings for me driving the merc on a couple of days this week (usually have the volvo and the computer is in km / l ■■) compared to it’s average according to the computer is around 50 quid a day saving based on a fiver per gallon - again no idea what firms pay.
Take it the other way, 5mpg vs 7.7 would be a 50 quid per day extra cost, 5mpg vs 10mpg would be a hundred quid a day extra cost…

As a driver, we’re responsible, not just for the safe driving, but also the efficient and economical too, both on the fuel and the mechanics of the truck, but a ■■■■■■ off driving would cost a fortune in my opinion and that would be counter productive.