No you don’t, you concoct them with your mates before any court hearing 
An interesting exchange of views here - I sit on both sides of the fence, as I work part-time for a local haulage company as a CE driver, and also run my own company (in partnership with another guy).
We started our company 3.5 years ago, as electrical maintenance contractors. We both worked for another company, doing electrical maintenance for local housing associations. When the recession was first mentioned, our boss at the time jumped at the chance to ban overtime (or at least any pay for it - he still wanted us to work all the hours), he changed our T&Cs so that we stopped getting paid when we finished our last job of the day, rather than when we got back to the yard (which was usually a 2.5 hour drive), and had all our vans limited to 60mph.
When we went to see him, en masse, to complain, his attitude was ‘If you don’t like it, you can ■■■■ off’.
So we did, started our own company, and pinched the contracts that we were working on.
Now, over 3 years later on, we are starting to feel the pinch, with a couple of the contracts having finished. We employ 3 other guys, with me in the office, and my partner used to spend half his time in the office and half out and about doing sparky work. As the workload has got smaller, the 3 guys are spending less time working and more time waiting for the jobs to come in. Me and my partner are both sitting in the office, usually bored, as the office work accounts for about 3 hours per day max, shared between 2 of us.
This is where the problems start.
My attitude is that the cuts have to start with the 2 of us - I maintain that we should go to a 3 day week and cut our pay accordingly - I’ll make mine up by driving for the local company.
My partner’s viewpoint is that we should cut our guys’ pay, or put them on a 3 day week, or lay one of them off, but that we should still, both of us, be in the office all day every day, and getting paid as normal. So in other words, we should have at least one office staff per field engineer.
My views have changed dramatically over the last few years - I used to be very right wing, particularly when it came to employment. Now I am an employer, I find that I’ve got much more left-wing, and tend to feel that our guys should be looked after first and foremost, and that me and partner should take the hits - we’ve benefited from the good times, now we get the ■■■■ end as well.
Not sure how it will all end up, but I’m determined that our guys will be treated as fairly as is humanly possible.
Phew, haven’t typed so much in a long time!
Gary
daveb0789:
Harry Monk:
We could distort the Law of Supply and Demand slightly if we were a heavily unionised industry but we aren’t.What about tanker drivers ? They seem to have a good deal for themselves.
Yes, because they are unionised, and every so often they threaten to go on strike if their pay or conditions look likely to be eroded. If general haulage drivers did the same, then we would be able force up wages and improve conditions because we too would bargaining on something other than Supply and Demand. However, that won’t happen because most drivers are opposed to any type of collective action.
raymundo:
No you don’t, you concoct them with your mates before any court hearing
“Gives raymundo a fiver to catch a taxi” 
scaniason:
An interesting exchange of views here - I sit on both sides of the fence, as I work part-time for a local haulage company as a CE driver, and also run my own company (in partnership with another guy).We started our company 3.5 years ago, as electrical maintenance contractors. We both worked for another company, doing electrical maintenance for local housing associations. When the recession was first mentioned, our boss at the time jumped at the chance to ban overtime (or at least any pay for it - he still wanted us to work all the hours), he changed our T&Cs so that we stopped getting paid when we finished our last job of the day, rather than when we got back to the yard (which was usually a 2.5 hour drive), and had all our vans limited to 60mph.
When we went to see him, en masse, to complain, his attitude was ‘If you don’t like it, you can [zb] off’.
So we did, started our own company, and pinched the contracts that we were working on.
Now, over 3 years later on, we are starting to feel the pinch, with a couple of the contracts having finished. We employ 3 other guys, with me in the office, and my partner used to spend half his time in the office and half out and about doing sparky work. As the workload has got smaller, the 3 guys are spending less time working and more time waiting for the jobs to come in. Me and my partner are both sitting in the office, usually bored, as the office work accounts for about 3 hours per day max, shared between 2 of us
This is where the problems start.
My attitude is that the cuts have to start with the 2 of us - I maintain that we should go to a 3 day week and cut our pay accordingly - I’ll make mine up by driving for the local company.
My partner’s viewpoint is that we should cut our guys’ pay, or put them on a 3 day week, or lay one of them off, but that we should still, both of us, be in the office all day every day, and getting paid as normal. So in other words, we should have at least one office staff per field engineer.
My views have changed dramatically over the last few years - I used to be very right wing, particularly when it came to employment. Now I am an employer, I find that I’ve got much more left-wing, and tend to feel that our guys should be looked after first and foremost, and that me and partner should take the hits - we’ve benefited from the good times, now we get the [zb] end as well.
Not sure how it will all end up, but I’m determined that our guys will be treated as fairly as is humanly possible.
Phew, haven’t typed so much in a long time!
Gary
Brilliant post and I’m glad you took the time to post it, the thing is you have something to fall back on and your partner dosent.
jessicas dad:
scaniason:
My bitBrilliant post and I’m glad you took the time to post it, the thing is you have something to fall back on and your partner dosent.
My partner is a good electrician, so he’s always got that - I think he’d struggle in all honesty though to work for somebody else again. He’s the one who likes being the boss…
The ones who worry me are the 3 who work for us - they’re all bloody good electricians, but as we all know, jobs are very hard to come by. One of them has just had their first baby (3 weeks ago), so the thought of putting them out of work is causing me sleepless nights. As you say, I’ve got something to fall back on - the money might not be as much as I’ve earned from my own company, but I won’t starve either. I’m worried about the guys though… 
Gary
I was in a bit of a similar position with a bike shop I used to help run.
We had to cut costs when KTM ended our contract so I offered to go back into transport (because I knew I could get a job).
On a personal note, I find being an employed driver a walk in the park compared to working for myself. Some of the loafing buggers I work with have no idea…
Good post and good luck for the future.
W
all this talk about our polish counterparts, all the guys i have worked with over the years have done a bloody good job, and got on with it, but they are mostly happy to work for the minimum wage because they are not scared to put the hours in to better themselves, thats why they and fellow eastern europians came over.
now i am currently on holiday in bulgaria, if you want to talk about ■■■■ poor wages try working over here, me and the other half were talking to one of her friends today, she works in the main library and on her pay scale is one under the director of library serivces, her pay before tax is 517 lev per month!! current exchange rate 2.45 lev to the pound you work it out!!! fuel is currently about £1.13 a ltr and going up, we went shopping tonight in the local supermarket meat and you can really only get pork and chicken out here because beef and lamb is too dear and we paid about £4 a kilo for pork, ok ■■■■ are cheaper about £1.70 for 20 it seems to be the essential are just as expensive as the uk so really you don’t have a lot to moan about 
mickyblue:
And i do write statements
You’re taking the ■■■■ now
wildfire:
all this talk about our polish counterparts, all the guys i have worked with over the years have done a bloody good job, and got on with it, but they are mostly happy to work for the minimum wage because they are not scared to put the hours in to better themselves, thats why they and fellow eastern europians came over.now i am currently on holiday in bulgaria, if you want to talk about ■■■■ poor wages try working over here, me and the other half were talking to one of her friends today, she works in the main library and on her pay scale is one under the director of library serivces, her pay before tax is 517 lev per month!! current exchange rate 2.45 lev to the pound you work it out!!! fuel is currently about £1.13 a ltr and going up, we went shopping tonight in the local supermarket meat and you can really only get pork and chicken out here because beef and lamb is too dear and we paid about £4 a kilo for pork, ok ■■■■ are cheaper about £1.70 for 20 it seems to be the essential are just as expensive as the uk so really you don’t have a lot to moan about
Most vehicles over there run on LPG, chicken is dirt cheap, car insurance is pennies, as is the Vignette (if you bother with it), and electricity.
You’re right about the wages though, remember a Scottish guy running a place, was kinda a hostel + apartments + camping type place, and a girl worked there, she did breakfasts, then cleaning, she did the books, spoke lots of languages - 8 I think, worked the bar, cooked evening meals and other stuff.
She was on about 40 quid per week IIRC and that was a good wage where they were, it was the same as an accountant in the local main town (Veliko Turnovo). I’m remembering £40 per week, it might not be bang on, but I remember it was ■■■■ poor - this was about 3yrs ago.
Someone with her skills would be a valuable asset over here, over there she’s just 1 of many.
I skied in Bulgaria about 20 years ago.The exchange rate with the waiters was about 40 levs to the £.I was really struck by the standard of education over there,every one could speak 3 or 4 languages.
jessicas dad:
scaniason:
An interesting exchange of views here - I sit on both sides of the fence, as I work part-time for a local haulage company as a CE driver, and also run my own company (in partnership with another guy).We started our company 3.5 years ago, as electrical maintenance contractors. We both worked for another company, doing electrical maintenance for local housing associations. When the recession was first mentioned, our boss at the time jumped at the chance to ban overtime (or at least any pay for it - he still wanted us to work all the hours), he changed our T&Cs so that we stopped getting paid when we finished our last job of the day, rather than when we got back to the yard (which was usually a 2.5 hour drive), and had all our vans limited to 60mph.
When we went to see him, en masse, to complain, his attitude was ‘If you don’t like it, you can [zb] off’.
So we did, started our own company, and pinched the contracts that we were working on.
Now, over 3 years later on, we are starting to feel the pinch, with a couple of the contracts having finished. We employ 3 other guys, with me in the office, and my partner used to spend half his time in the office and half out and about doing sparky work. As the workload has got smaller, the 3 guys are spending less time working and more time waiting for the jobs to come in. Me and my partner are both sitting in the office, usually bored, as the office work accounts for about 3 hours per day max, shared between 2 of us
This is where the problems start.
My attitude is that the cuts have to start with the 2 of us - I maintain that we should go to a 3 day week and cut our pay accordingly - I’ll make mine up by driving for the local company.
My partner’s viewpoint is that we should cut our guys’ pay, or put them on a 3 day week, or lay one of them off, but that we should still, both of us, be in the office all day every day, and getting paid as normal. So in other words, we should have at least one office staff per field engineer.
My views have changed dramatically over the last few years - I used to be very right wing, particularly when it came to employment. Now I am an employer, I find that I’ve got much more left-wing, and tend to feel that our guys should be looked after first and foremost, and that me and partner should take the hits - we’ve benefited from the good times, now we get the [zb] end as well.
Not sure how it will all end up, but I’m determined that our guys will be treated as fairly as is humanly possible.
Phew, haven’t typed so much in a long time!
Gary
Brilliant post and I’m glad you took the time to post it, the thing is you have something to fall back on and your partner dosent.
More or less the same situation as I am in, people who have only worked for others don`t really understand what it is like to run your own business, they just go to work and get paid at the end of the week, they are not bothered how you have got their wage as long as you have got it for them, no thought goes into how the wage was found and how hard it has been to make said wage, let alone get an increase, as I have said earlier its a whole different ball game working for yourself.
JD you know who I am, used to drive for Petty, well still do at times.
the trouble is as a driver your up at 3am out till 4-5-6pm come in have a shower tea and have 7 hours till your back at work shelf stacking pays almost as much if not more you will normally do 8-10 hours earn a similar wage not be treat like ■■■■ by some snotty transport planner/manager/owner. the job is very appealing when you look at it yes some jobs (containers/fridges etc) can mean you sit around getting paid when doing very little. why should people have to work 50-60 hours per week to earn a decent wage when it is a skilled job? any one can stack shelves not that many can driver a hgv professionally in comparison.
and if your that worried about drivers not pulling their weight or doing enough work put them on a profit share bonus!
All very interesting but classic devide and rule! As long as you keep accepting what you don’t like they will keep giving you more!
Enjoy! Until everyone gets a set you can’t change a ■■■■ thing!!
war1974:
why should people have to work 50-60 hours per week to earn a decent wage when it is a skilled job?
It’s not a skilled job, a skilled job is something you study for over the course of several years, not a fortnight.
Harry Monk:
war1974:
why should people have to work 50-60 hours per week to earn a decent wage when it is a skilled job?It’s not a skilled job, a skilled job is something you study for over the course of several years, not a fortnight.
■■■■■■■■!
Driving an HGV in a professional manner IS a skill, and that skill is developed over time. Thats why you see newly qualified drivers shunting back and forth to get on a loading bay, yet seasoned drivers reverse onto a bay first go.
Roymondo:
mickyblue:
And i do write statementsYou’re taking the ■■■■ now
BILL1961:
Harry Monk:
war1974:
why should people have to work 50-60 hours per week to earn a decent wage when it is a skilled job?It’s not a skilled job, a skilled job is something you study for over the course of several years, not a fortnight.
[zb]!
Driving an HGV in a professional manner IS a skill, and that skill is developed over time. Thats why you see newly qualified drivers shunting back and forth to get on a loading bay, yet seasoned drivers reverse onto a bay first go.
So your obituary would say done nowt all his life but could reverse on a bay first time 
we drive trucks for a living its no big deal, I can train my bint of a girlfriend who is a fashion designer to do our job within a couple of weeks!
we are all professional drivers, we do the job for gain so by that rule its a profession, so how come some just don’t see themselves as professional then 
pro·fes·sion·al
   [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies. driver cpc now!!!
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
stevieboy308:
jamdoms:
stevieboy308:
[Someone offers a wage to do a job, either someone accepts it or not, the offer will increase untill someone takes the offer or dissapear because it has become unprofitable. Where’s the exploitation?We/them are being exploited:
Do you think wages for drivers would be at the rate they are now if it was not for the influx of labour from the old soviet block countries?
Have the wages increased?
In most cases they have stagnated or reversed.
Wage freeze or lower wages offered than several years ago is exploitation in my mind,or is that an example of benevolence?
Or are you rubbing yours hands in anticipation of the cracking Christmas bonus you going to give.
If it walks like a duck…
So because there is a wage freeze or lower wages being offered than previous years, then in your mind that is exploitation.
I never realised I exploited my solicitor 3 years ago when I bought my house, due to supply and demand he was charging half as much as he had previously charged. I won’t even tell you how much cheaper I bought the house for than it was sold for 18 months previous! Supply and demand is always changing, sometimes you’re up, sometimes you’re down.
Of course the influx of eastern European workers has had an impact of wages, anything that effects the supply demand ratio will do. But that’s a political point and not down to individual companies or the workers themselves, but don’t forget that plenty of people have left these shore to work abroad.
Are you confusing me with someone else regaurding the Christmas bonus or just making assumptions?[/quote
Yes for me that is exploitation.
There is no doubt the labour market is flooded in this country but that amazingly has been accommodated at the expense of the indigenous workers,
not the fault of the people who have come here to work like you suggest its the making of politicians but I’m not naive to think that business and politics don’t go hand in glove, and between them they have created and allowed an endless supply of labour to enter and work here, now don’t tell me in part that was not done to drive down wages and conditions.
Now we have a recession a perfect storm of less jobs more workers equals lower wages and a race to the bottom, I know this, you know this so no doubt do the employers and this is where the exploitation comes in because not all businesses are doing bad out of this situation and some on the backs of this storm are posting record profits yet they are cutting wages or freezing them.
A free maket economy I can hear you shouting, but I say a free market economy is not a fair economy and is based on exploitation.
What concerns me is where the bottom is in this race.
The above is only my opinion I could be right or wrong but it is how I see things.