Did a “last minute” run this week and was advised to take the toll road route - Calais, Reims, Troyes, Dijon, Bourg, Geneva. Cost me 128 euros each way in France, plus the Swiss orange card tax (13T Rigid). I did a quick search of the forums but didn’t really have time to plan anything else.
Got to go back a week Monday — again in my 13T rigid. Talking to a couple of British lads, other routes were mentioned that minimise the tolls but aren’t too bad in terms of time, mileage and steep bits! But they did say some routes are limited to 7.5T.
I’m kicking myself because I didn’t grab a map and get them to show me. I do recall one route went via Lille, Namur, Luxenburg, Metz, Strasbourg, Freiburg, Basel. Another mentioned a cut through to Reims via Saint Dizer.
BTW — got tugged twice by the Gendarmes. One at the toll exit at the Geneva end — I saw him lurking, so even cut the engine and took the keys out when I went to pay (read that on the forums somewhere!). The other was on the way back home side of Reims. Squeaky clean on all docs and the tacho’s! I’ve done about 30 trips out, mainly France & Germany, never been tugged before and then have two in one trip!
Help on the alternative routes would, as always, be greatly appreciated.
the route you took last time would be my choice, but I don’t know how much Swiss tax is for a 13 ton truck - if it is a lot cheaper than 38 tons it may be worth going via Basel, but generally French tolls are cheaper than Swiss tax. its also a bit hilly through Belgium, but if you have big tanks Derv is very cheep in Lux so this could also make it more viable to take that route.
that will make it clear as mud
I did 39 K’s in Swiss, got charged 1.68 per K, plus 10 for Verarbeitungsgebuhr (whatever that is!). Thought I was being ripped off when I handed over 18.50 CHF (can you pay the Swiss in Euro — I drew some CHF on the boat cause I wasn’t sure, and had read somewhere they don’t take Visa?).
I don’t have a fuel card (long story) and usually pay on Visa. The last trip I did out I sent my receipts to Quipsound to claim the Vat back, but they sent them back saying all sorts of silly things I hadn’t done (visa vouchers and something about stamps, addresses and vat numbers which I thought were on the receipts!). They also say the maximum receipt you can submit for fuel purchased in Lux is 50 Euro?
Don’t know about the tax etc, but you can pay with Visa & you can pay in Euro’s no probs…the O D forum may be a better place to find out about what taxes you can claim back…I know one company i used to work for told us to fill up in Belgium and not Lux as they could claim more tax back
spaceman:
I’m kicking myself because I didn’t grab a map and get them to show me. I do recall one route went via Lille, Namur, Luxenburg, Metz, Strasbourg, Freiburg, Basel.
.
That route takes about 15 hours from Calais, the most direct route (through France) takes about 12.
You save on the peages, but pay more in Swiss transit tax.
Going via Lumembourg saves on fuel- their diesel is the cheapest in western Europe.
So it all depends if you are in a hurry or not. Personally, I dont think that route is financially advantageous for an operator, and its certainly harder work for the driver.
Vince — when you say the direct route through France, is this the “toll” route, or do you recommend any of the National roads?
The A26 today was hard work — very gusty! And it’s the first time I wished I’d used the tunnel. The Force 10 in the channel doesn’t bother me (other than private punters, and private punter sea sickness!) , but five hours from port to port was a bit of a chore!
BTW, some of the guys I spoke with were from Sandwich (doing stuff for the motor show at Palexpo, all running MAN’s) — is that your firm?
spaceman:
They also say the maximum receipt you can submit for fuel purchased in Lux is 50 Euro?
That’s not correct. as far as I know there is no limit and I just picked a few of my Luxembourg fuel invoices out of the drawer, which I’ve already had the VAT back on and they are for amounts such as: €579.75, €486.77, €1016.48 and €872.43, a little more than €50. I used to use Quipsound a few years ago but ditched them as they gave me wrong information a few times and I wasn’t happy with them.
As far as your route goes if i am going direct to Geneva I go the way you went.
I did 39 K’s in Swiss, got charged 1.68 per K, plus 10 for Verarbeitungsgebuhr (whatever that is!).
The formula for working out Swiss tax is distance x weight (anything over 34 tonnes just uses 34) x rate per km according to EURO class. So yours was 39 km x 13 x 0.0168 SFR = 8.52 SFR. The 10 SFR was the ‘service charge’ they make when you pay cash, you don’t get this when paying by card.
Looks like the route is down the Toll roads next week then.
On the tax/vat side, Quipsound’s letter states “ cash receipts are not Vat admissible unless supported by a fully completed numbered factura…” What does that mean? I gave them the till receipts (same as I keep for UK Vat) and they rejected them?
After 01/08/04, I’ll have a set of certified accounts for my ltd company which should pass the ATA or UTA (? which is best ?) credit criteria.
I’m going off my own topic now, but how do I reclaim the tax ahead of using one of these cards if Quipsound won’t play? How do you do it (net or wait)?
Otherwise, buying fuel on the French toll roads isn’t much cheaper than the UK net of Vat price.
And do you claim back tax on the French tolls?
And if I pay the Swiss bit on a Barclaycard, will it avoid the 10 CHF charge (only about four quid, but all helps!)
As usual, lots of questions!!! Next topic will be “how do you know the paper route around the borders and deal with the stroppy personnel who man them!”
spaceman:
“how do you know the paper route around the borders and deal with the stroppy personnel who man them!”
can’t help with tax Q’s or the fact that some border guards can be difficult but this problem is best dealt with by finding another Brit going through the Border, if none are around, then look for a Dutch, Dane or other driver who speaks English. some agents can also help you out with the paper chase, I know when I used to go to Poland the agent we used always gave us a “map” of the border with numbers on it telling you what to do at each point…made life very easy. Stupidly I never kept any
Jimti — I guess it’s one of those experience things. Why they can’t just give a map out to anyone in need (in their own lingo) is beyond me!
For example, if I hadn’t done a bit if research on the Swiss Orange/Tax Card, I probably would have sailed through it!
I’m in the RHA, but haven’t joined the International bit. I think it’s about £50 a year — if they have some sort of literature on the do’s & don’ts of driving trucks in Europe, then I’d sign up. To date, I’ve been a bit disappointed with my UK membership — the advice on these forums is a lot cheaper and a tad more first hand!
The route I’ve planned (unless you guys tell me I’m bonkers) is:-
E40 to Brussels
E411 to Luxemburg
E25 to Nancy
E23 / N57 all the way to Geneva
Using a combination of Autoroute & autoroutes.fr, I reckon this is about 50 miles extra each way and adds approx 2 hrs driving time.
Taking into account cheaper fuel (and ■■■■!) in Luxemburg, weekly Vignette & extra miles/tax in Swiss, my reckoning is this route is about £125 cheaper than going down the French Toll Roads. The downside is it will probably need an extra shift — but I also think it will be less boring(?). Naturally, if I get an enticing job for the UK for Day 4 then I will be bat out of hell up the quicker but more expensive route!
you had better check on weight limits on the route from Nancy, I think it is 3.5 ton limit, but it might be more…loads of drivers used to use that rout until a weight limit was put on it… I am only replying through vague memory as I don’t have my maps with me so cannot check the route… I am sure if I am wrong someone will put you right… I am away for the next 10 or 12 days so cannot offer any more advice at present…Good luck
spaceman:
Thanks for all your advice & tips so far.
The route I’ve planned (unless you guys tell me I’m bonkers) is:-
E40 to Brussels
E411 to Luxemburg
E25 to Nancy
E23 / N57 all the way to Geneva
As jimti says you will have to rethink that route as the way you have chosen from Nancy has a weight limit (can’t recall if it is 3.5 or 7.5t) for transit traffic.
If you are intent on going via Luxembourg your best two options would be:
Luxembourg - Metz - Strasbourg - Basel - Geneva, less French tolls but more Swiss tax and the Basel border can be very busy with long delays if you hit it at the wrong time.
or
Luxembourg - Nancy - Toul then the A31 towards Dijon, A39 towards Bourg-en-Bresse then the A40 towards Geneva, more French tolls but less Swiss tax and the border into Switzerland at Geneva (Saint-Julien-en-Genevois) is much quieter than Basel so less chance of delay.
Personally if I’m going direct to Geneva I go Calais - Reims - Dijon - Geneva as it’s shorter and quicker.
To take full advantage of going via Luxembourg and taking the extra mileage into account, your fuel tanks are going to have to be big enough to make it worth while. Don’t forget when working out the fuel costs, if you are getting the VAT back it’s 19.6% in France and 15% in Luxembourg and usually takes a fair while longer to get it back from Luxembourg so that can have a bearing on things as well. Also Swiss tax doesn’t have VAT on it but French tolls do (19.6%) and that can be claimed back.
As ever, I am astounded that, having spent a couple of hours this morning working out routes and costs, the un-published info on weight limits catches me out yet again, and all the internet researching I have undertaken is now binned ‘cause of you lot on here (to your credit, naturally!)!
The N57 is the E23. And autoroutes.fr, set to a 12T+, non articulated truck, and no tolls, recommends that route! If you set it to artic, it goes off another way which includes some pretty nasty climbs.
The good news is that the job has a new twist (but will probably change again!). I’m now looking at tipping in Zurich on Tuesday, then collecting in Geneva. So I’ll probably go down the Lux route and back home up the French Tolls. Even better, this bumps the price up!
I think you guys should get together and write/publish a truck drivers guide to non UK driving! I’d be more than happy to cough up a few quid! And who knows, in a few years time I might be able to contribute! If anyone can confirm the RHA international arm is worth joining, then I’d sign up & pay for that tomorrow!
On the Vat issue, I filled in the forms for a UTA card last night. The toll cards don’t seem to be viable unless you know you’re running out frequently. Paying for fuel/tolls on UTA will at least give me the “facture” invoice needed by Quipsound to get the VAT back.
spaceman:
The good news is that the job has a new twist (but will probably change again!). I’m now looking at tipping in Zurich on Tuesday, then collecting in Geneva. So I’ll probably go down the Lux route and back home up the French Tolls.
That sounds like a plan. Check where you are clearing customs for the Zurich tip as that could have a bearing on what route/border you use, St. Louis, Weil am Rhine or maybe in Zurich at the Zollfreilager.
Coffeeholic - I’m using an ATA Carnet — thought this would mean once I get a French stamp out followed by the Swiss stamp in (and have plugged the orange card in the machine with tacho entry k’s) then I’d be all sorted.
spaceman:
I think you guys should get together and write/publish a truck drivers guide to non UK driving! I’d be more than happy to cough up a few quid!
spaceman:
I think you guys should get together and write/publish a truck drivers guide to non UK driving! I’d be more than happy to cough up a few quid! And who knows, in a few years time I might be able to contribute! If anyone can confirm the RHA international arm is worth joining, then I’d sign up & pay for that tomorrow!
You don’t need a book , just ask the right questions on here and your answer will be forthcoming, no problem
On the RHA front. The company I drive for are members. We get updated info on problems in Europe, usualy about 3 months after someone has highlighted the problem on here .
Check where you are clearing customs for the Zurich tip as that could have a bearing on what route/border you use, St. Louis, Weil am Rhine or maybe in Zurich at the Zollfreilager.
