Tony1968:
Thinking about it, with a crash box you can change gear without the clutch (with practice!), only using it when stopping and starting. Obviously this can be done with synchro but would it be OK? I’m not for a minute suggesting you try to teach learners how to do this, just interested for myself!
Changing gear with a crash box without the clutch is reasonably easy,the older the 'box,the easier it is.Many years ago when I was doing a night trunk from Peterborough to Stoke in a Mk,1 Atki,While doing the trailer swap at Peterborough,fell out of the cab and thought I’d broken my left ankle.Hopped around on my right leg to do the swap,then managed to get back in the cab.Getting into first gear and starting off was the painfull part,after that,up and down the 'box using just the accelerator was no problem.
Changing gear on a synchro 'box with no clutch as pretty much the same,you have to get the revs right and it’s a bit heavier getting into gear overcoming the drag of the synchro cones,but again,get the revs right and it’s not too difficult,I’ve done it on a Volvo F12 with a collapsed clutch.
In all these cases of course,you HAVE to blip the accelerator to change down.
What about changing down on an MAN with Servoshift?This system automatically raises the engine speed to match the lower gear.
ROG:
A few years ago I came across a lorry on the A10 at cheshunt where it was causing a long traffic queue - I parked behind it as it made no difference to the queue and found that the clutch had gone. the driver in his early 30s had no idea what to do so we switched lorries and he followed me into a side turn where I then explained to him how I drove it.
I had a Kawasaki Z1100R, and the clutch went on that. I had to hit the engine kill at traffic lights, put it in 2nd and then just used the electric start to get going. Didn’t need the clutch after that, up or down.
You had to be ready for it pulling away though - a real arm stretcher.
ROG:
I dont know if it causes damage but I can drive a manual car or truck if the clutch is not working - a trait which a lot of younger drivers have not been taught or even know about.
A few years ago I came across a lorry on the A10 at cheshunt where it was causing a long traffic queue - I parked behind it as it made no difference to the queue and found that the clutch had gone. the driver in his early 30s had no idea what to do so we switched lorries and he followed me into a side turn where I then explained to him how I drove it.
I’m only in my very late 30s but I think you’re on to something here as my generation all owned old 1970’s Austin/Rover/MG/whatevertheywerecallingthemsleves and clutch cylinder failure was a common fault so this became an essential skill to get you home!
I’ll often do it in cars, especially if I’m bored in traffic and don’t think it should do any harm, in fact if it’s done right the synchro hubs have no work to do so should actually last longer.
Had 2 trainees fail yesterday on C, one went through a red light and the other went over a kerb but the main onging fault with both was the gears (GEARBOX). Neither has got the hang of it and I got them to talk it through out loud which was ok until they got to a busy area then it went pearshaped.
In my opinion, until they can use the gears in the truck as well as they can use the gears in their car then they are never going to pass the test - the examiner made the same comment on both.
They asked me what they should do to rectify this and the only suggestion I could make was to have more time driving the lorry. Any other problem like DSA procedures or mirror work, I could have said to practice in their cars but the gearbox is unique to lorries (well, I aint seen one elsewhere!).
Next question was “how long will it take” - I replied “how long is a piece of string” - “you might get to grips with it in one day or one month”.
I left the decision to them as it could mean throwing good money after bad - one had taken the test 3 times and spent £3,000 (he said).
Any other thoughts/suggestions folks?
When I decided to get back into driving after a long period of only driving pre 1960’s trucks I arranged a few hours refresher with a local firm, two evenings two weeks apart. First time out I had a nightmare with the gearbox. I had no pressure as I wasn’t going for a test and I was used to driving a lorry so didn’t really have an excuse about too much going on etc.
In the intervening period before they could fit me in again I tried two things - the first was inspired by films of Kamikaze pilot training - you know, the ones where they’re all in a classroom full of wooden cockpit mockups. I found a stick, sat on the sofa and practiced changing up and down until I could remember when to flick the switch. Silly, but it worked and you could practice it in a stationary car. The other thing was that I stopped preselecting the range because I found that I’d expect to need a downshift, then the road would clear and I’d be able to continue in 5th, then as I picked up speed I’d change up to 6th…which was really 2nd because I’d left the switch down!
When I went back for my second run I only made one mistake in two hours.
Not sure if this’ll help, it worked for me because I knew what I was doing wrong and could work out how to correct it.
Slightly off your specific topic ROG but i had a nightmare day today with a 4 over 4 on a foden and the range changer had been reconnected at some time the wrong way round so switch up was low range and switch down was high after a while it was fine and i compensated pretty well but you know when you’ve got a biggy change coming up (you know uphill fully freighted and you’ve got to go down to 4th) as normal i preselected low range right after the change from 6th to 5th (no splitter on this truck) and then just before i change down to 4th (although i never realised i did this till today) i brush my finger over the switch as a kind of make sure confirmation thingy , the only problem though was that my finger was then telling my brain hang on a mo you havent preselected and automatically id flick the switch back into high so i would end up going uphill losing revs and then go from 5th to 8th realise what i’d done flick switch through neutral to 3rd …nope to late 2nd … nope to late again bugger 1st gear and 5 mph
Reef:
Slightly off your specific topic ROG but i had a nightmare day today with a 4 over 4 on a foden and the range changer had been reconnected at some time the wrong way round so switch up was low range and switch down was high after a while it was fine and i compensated pretty well but you know when you’ve got a biggy change coming up (you know uphill fully freighted and you’ve got to go down to 4th) as normal i preselected low range right after the change from 6th to 5th (no splitter on this truck) and then just before i change down to 4th (although i never realised i did this till today) i brush my finger over the switch as a kind of make sure confirmation thingy , the only problem though was that my finger was then telling my brain hang on a mo you havent preselected and automatically id flick the switch back into high so i would end up going uphill losing revs and then go from 5th to 8th realise what i’d done flick switch through neutral to 3rd …nope to late 2nd … nope to late again bugger 1st gear and 5 mph
I struggled on the first couple days of my training with a 4 over 4, but i passed my test first time, so hey i couldnt have been that bad. Since i passed though, ive only ever driven automatic dustcarts and flat six pattern gearboxes, would probably pick up the 4 over 4 easily again, but i wouldnt have a clue what to do if i got in a lorry with a splitter on it.
which makes me wonder why dont all hgv training companies have a splitter and range changer on their test as compulsory? I know some people who have taken their test in a flat 6, so would have had no training on a 4 over 4, even without splitter.
also what type of lorries (class2) tend to have range changers and splitters on? as i said i have only driven auto dustcarts, and merc ategos/axor with a flat 6. i was told by the instructor that 3 axle hgvs usually have a range changer on?
4 over 4 ?
you think thats bad !
Try changing gear in the old Foden "Mickey Mouse " cab.
Gear lever left hand, 3 speed range change right hand on the dash corner near windscreen, whilst double clutching and blipping the throttle and steering it .
Great days, and many a tune sang on those babies…
Rog.
Try getting them to speak out the words :- LOUDLY
2 , 4 , Flick ,6 ,7,8. … 2, 4 , Flick, 6, 7, 8. LOUDLY while they are practising acceleration driving on the airfield and get them to drive between 2 long lines of cones with a slight curve part way along the line , while they are building speed up doing it .
Then do same LOUDLY going back down the box, de-celerating 8,7,6, Flick ,4,2. …8,7,6, Flick , 4, 2 …
(or whatever gear sequence your using)
Mental stimulation needed perhaps . NICE AND LOUD
Sounds to me like theyre ok on airfield, but as you say, go to pot on-road because theyre too busy concentrating on the width and length of what theyre driving.
trux:
Rog.
Try getting them to speak out the words :- LOUDLY
2 , 4 , Flick ,6 ,7,8. … 2, 4 , Flick, 6, 7, 8. LOUDLY while they are practising acceleration driving on the airfield and get them to drive between 2 long lines of cones with a slight curve part way along the line , while they are building speed up doing it .
Then do same LOUDLY going back down the box, de-celerating 8,7,6, Flick ,4,2. …8,7,6, Flick , 4, 2 …
(or whatever gear sequence your using)
Mental stimulation needed perhaps . NICE AND LOUD
Sounds to me like theyre ok on airfield, but as you say, go to pot on-road because theyre too busy concentrating on the width and length of what theyre driving.
Already do similar depending on vehicle - “switch down, gear 3 - thats to you and forward - switch up - accelerate - gear 5 - thats the old gear 1 slot - gear 6 - straight back from where you are now” or, if the switch is not preset for the other range - “switch, neutral, gear ?”
This sort of instruction gets to be less and less as training progresses but if in a situation that requires more concentration on other factors then it comes back into play again
A good instuctor will interceed when, and if, the situation demands it.
If a student doesn’t “get it” about the gears, find a ruddy great big hill, and get out a mountain bike from the back of the truck (preferably with panniers loaded with house bricks ). The chain wheels(front cogs) are the high/low range and the cogs (rear cogs) are just like the four normal gears, they’ll soon get the hang of it when their the engine.
I think cos the switch on a four over four is so small it belies the significance of its function.
I drove a four over four for the first time a few days ago and apart from a couple of muddly moments I was fine, When I forgot which gear I was in, a quick feel of the position of switch was all I needed. Preselecting the range before going into neutral is a tip (somewhere else on this forum) well worth knowing . For most situations you know if your gonna have to ‘range up/down’ so preselelecting before changing gear puts less strain on the grey matter and the truck…
Now all I have to do is get myself a ride with a splitter
I had numerous errors trying to sort the gear change out during my training, 4 over 4 box, my instructor was more than a little hot under the collar from time to time.
I finally got it sorted by changing through the gears from 3rd, it gave me a little more thinking time with the switch, don’t rush, plan the change, might sound a bit strange when you’re so used to doing the action.
MADBAZ:
I drove a four over four for the first time a few days ago and apart from a couple of muddly moments I was fine, When I forgot which gear I was in, a quick feel of the position of switch was all I needed. Preselecting the range before going into neutral is a tip (somewhere else on this forum) well worth knowing . For most situations you know if your gonna have to ‘range up/down’ so preselelecting before changing gear puts less strain on the grey matter and the truck…
There is a lot to be said for the old ways of learning - passing the test in a straight box and then, a little further on in a career, getting a larger rigid with a range change and/or splitter and being left alone to ‘sort it out’.
A few pointers from a fellow driver and a short practice drive usually got it sorted IMO.
PS - mods/site admin - I’m surprised that this has not been moved to the Newbies forum. - yes, I know, I put it in here to start with
rog after reading the post about the 2 guys failing id say the problem is nerves not the box.they need to chill a bit .if they get in a panic at a junction or island best thing to do is nock in neutral and start again.i failed my first test cuz of nerves all them years ago and i had problems with the gears but that was on an old ford cargo
ROG:
For a lot of them it would take a 1 month course!!!
One has to wonder if they should be driving a wagon then
Hear hear !
Did anyone see that thing on the news this morning, some “charity” is saying that drivers should be ■■■■■■-metrically tested before being allowed on the road, to see if they have the right temperament. Surely it would be better to limit the passes to those who can actually control a vehicle, not just crawl around looking “safe”.
Unfortunately, I think their agenda is to limit driving standards to “approved” practices and perceived safety. Dumbing down as usual.
I have always felt that all new drivers should start by riding a motorbike - there is so much to learn by doing that. You become acutely aware of road conditions - including the road surface, of speed - and how it affects handling, weight distribution, avoidance tactics, lane discipline, the correct line for corners etc etc.
The number of car drivers I see who use brakes instead of brains, flying into and around corners with the brakes on, or changing lanes while cornering forcing the car to try and change direction twice in the same movement … the list is endless. At least on a bike, you learn quickly or give up. One of my favourite amusements is to spot the drivers who leave a 30 foot gap between them and the car in front at the lights. 9 times out of 10, that’s the same gap they leave when doing 80 on the motorway !
Unfortunately ROG, you’re trying to make silk purses with some of these people, but if that’s what you want to do for a living … I’d find it soul-destroying.
I remember my instructors telling me about a guy who had failed the LGV C 5 times and still kept coming back. They said he was fine for about half an hour, but then he would sort of zone out and forget simple things. Consequently he would fail every test after nearly passing. Simple things like seeing a cyclist coming up to pass a traffic island and not slowing down to let them get through first. Not the kind of truck driver you want on the road - but there is no legal basis for banning a person from trying to pass the test- even if they have shown themselves to be incompetent. Sad state of affairs. One day that guy will pass, and no-one will know who he is, or what he is driving, or how bad it might one day be.
BTW, I don’t claim to be perfect, but I do make an effort to understand whatever machine I am in control of, and use that knowledge to my and the machines advantage. All machines have characters, and react accordingly. Treat them nice and they behave, otherwise, they bite.
Excellent post, I agree entirely, in an ideal world everyone would have experience of other transport types, from Push Bike or even Horse, to 44T artic. Actually ow hard would it be to include videos from the various road users in the theory test?
last time i ever take advice off a driving instructor 
and get them to drive between 2 long lines of cones with a slight curve part way along the line , while they are building speed up doing it .
I was fine, When I forgot which gear I was in, a quick feel of the position of switch was all I needed. 
Preselecting the range before going into neutral is a tip (somewhere else on this forum) well worth knowing