ROG:
For a lot of them it would take a 1 month course!!!
One has to wonder if they should be driving a wagon then 
I will agree with Montana Man here. When I was a lad everyone could drive before taking lessons, either from working on farms or having the basics of an idea of driving. The lessons were to sharpen their ideas up and teach them to drive smoothly and show the examiner a safe drive while making progress
My landlady is a driving instructor with her own school and frightens me with the tales of some of her scary days.
It seems that nowadays people learn to drive on PC’s and Playstations and if they get killed, they just start a new game 
montana man:
ROG:
For a lot of them it would take a 1 month course!!!One has to wonder if they should be driving a wagon then
Hear hear !
Did anyone see that thing on the news this morning, some “charity” is saying that drivers should be ■■■■■■-metrically tested before being allowed on the road, to see if they have the right temperament. Surely it would be better to limit the passes to those who can actually control a vehicle, not just crawl around looking “safe”.
Unfortunately, I think their agenda is to limit driving standards to “approved” practices and perceived safety. Dumbing down as usual.
I have always felt that all new drivers should start by riding a motorbike - there is so much to learn by doing that. You become acutely aware of road conditions - including the road surface, of speed - and how it affects handling, weight distribution, avoidance tactics, lane discipline, the correct line for corners etc etc.
The number of car drivers I see who use brakes instead of brains, flying into and around corners with the brakes on, or changing lanes while cornering forcing the car to try and change direction twice in the same movement … the list is endless. At least on a bike, you learn quickly or give up. One of my favourite amusements is to spot the drivers who leave a 30 foot gap between them and the car in front at the lights. 9 times out of 10, that’s the same gap they leave when doing 80 on the motorway !
Unfortunately ROG, you’re trying to make silk purses with some of these people, but if that’s what you want to do for a living … I’d find it soul-destroying.
I remember my instructors telling me about a guy who had failed the LGV C 5 times and still kept coming back. They said he was fine for about half an hour, but then he would sort of zone out and forget simple things. Consequently he would fail every test after nearly passing. Simple things like seeing a cyclist coming up to pass a traffic island and not slowing down to let them get through first. Not the kind of truck driver you want on the road - but there is no legal basis for banning a person from trying to pass the test- even if they have shown themselves to be incompetent. Sad state of affairs. One day that guy will pass, and no-one will know who he is, or what he is driving, or how bad it might one day be.
BTW, I don’t claim to be perfect, but I do make an effort to understand whatever machine I am in control of, and use that knowledge to my and the machines advantage. All machines have characters, and react accordingly. Treat them nice and they behave, otherwise, they bite.
Good Post Smoker.
At least having to do a CBT instead of a hazard perception test on a computer would put the new driver at risk and would make them understand the points you raised, road surface, handling etc. It would also make them realise that it hurts when you fall off due to an inconsiderate arse hole.
Bring back compulsory cycling proficiency tests 
Wheel Nut:
At least having to do a CBT instead of a hazard perception test on a computer would put the new driver at risk and would make them understand the points you raised, road surface, handling etc. It would also make them realise that it hurts when you fall off due to an inconsiderate arse hole.Bring back compulsory cycling proficiency tests
Agreed on the CBT. It’s really about time - I’m getting fed up with finding learners sat 10 feet from a junction having a chat about what they should do next.
Also agreed WRT cycling proficiency tests - I still have the certificate somewhere and the badge 
smoker:
Unfortunately ROG, you’re trying to make silk purses with some of these people, but if that’s what you want to do for a living … I’d find it soul-destroying.
It is like banging your head on a brick wall. The only upside is that most will never pass and go onto our roads as a lorry driver.
Job has its good times, like now - ive got a 7.5 tonne driver taking a 1 on 1, three day course inc test and he is a natural - day 1 got to grips with range change box and using a covering gear to approach hazards & is to test standard on reverse, controlled stop and gear exercise.
I had a new guy out with me on friday in a worn out daf 18 t with 4 over 4 and we had all kinds of probs(mostly down 2 worn gearbox 2 b fair).One thing that made a big difference tho was having him listen for the clunk as the range changed as he had a tendency to flick the switch down when the truck speed was 2 fast with the result that the range wouldnt change (safety feature methinks) and we would end up going into r bouts in 7th instead of 3rd.small point but may help m8 
I cant explain it really, its the same with any gearbox on any car, it doesnt take me very long to get used to it and the more I do it the quicker it happens.
crmelwales:
I had a new guy out with me on friday in a worn out daf 18 t with 4 over 4 and we had all kinds of probs(mostly down 2 worn gearbox 2 b fair).One thing that made a big difference tho was having him listen for the clunk as the range changed as he had a tendency to flick the switch down when the truck speed was 2 fast with the result that the range wouldnt change (safety feature methinks) and we would end up going into r bouts in 7th instead of 3rd.small point but may help m8
That is the easiest thing to do even before you start the engine. Establish whether you have a range change or a splitter box
Does the airpack work as it passes through neutral or only when the clutch is depressed. You have to understand how something works to get the best out of it
Wheel Nut:
crmelwales:
I had a new guy out with me on friday in a worn out daf 18 t with 4 over 4 and we had all kinds of probs(mostly down 2 worn gearbox 2 b fair).One thing that made a big difference tho was having him listen for the clunk as the range changed as he had a tendency to flick the switch down when the truck speed was 2 fast with the result that the range wouldnt change (safety feature methinks) and we would end up going into r bouts in 7th instead of 3rd.small point but may help m8That is the easiest thing to do even before you start the engine. Establish whether you have a range change or a splitter box
Does the airpack work as it passes through neutral or only when the clutch is depressed. You have to understand how something works to get the best out of it
both of these explained and demonstarted to trainees - more than once - but it still wont “click”
Rog
you say the guy can do it if you talk him through it.
So see if he can do it by talking himself through it.
Get him to think out loud. Its easier to remember something if you’ve actually said the words, rather than just thought them.
Kate:
Rog
you say the guy can do it if you talk him through it.
So see if he can do it by talking himself through it.
Get him to think out loud. Its easier to remember something if you’ve actually said the words, rather than just thought them.
THANKS - I must be THICK to not consider that
I am going to try that on the next drive with a trainee who has gearbox selection and use of problems
How about trying to teach this to a novice? youtube.com/watch?v=4a8SNT3uy-4
ROG:
Lucy:
What bit of learning to use the box are they struggling with? I remember the first time I used one trying to change from 4th to 5th, or worse still down again, the dodgy bit. Once someone told me to open the window and listen for the “thump” as you change between boxes, I was fine.Tried that - I think they need some sort of on-dash light system to tell them what gear they are in, what gear to go to next and how to do it!
Give 'em an Actros!!
smoker:
I have always felt that all new drivers should start by riding a motorbike - there is so much to learn by doing that. You become acutely aware of road conditions - including the road surface, of speed - and how it affects handling, weight distribution, avoidance tactics, lane discipline, the correct line for corners etc etc.
Fully agree. It should be the first test you have to pass before you are allowed to touch anything else.
I think the standards of general driving and courtesy would be much improved.
mikermhh:
It wastes fuel, every little drop adds up. Well thats what I was told.
After working for my firm through an agency for almost 4 years,it was decided I had not had a driving assessment when I signed up,so I was taken out by one of the firms own driving instructors.
As I mentioned in another thread,after leaving the army in '68 where I was a tank driving instructor,I spent my first few years in civvy street tramping with a Gardner 180 and David Brown 6 speed.
When I went out on this assessment in my usual Mercedes Axor,I drove as I usually do,including smooth gearchanges.
On getting back in the yard,the assessor could only find one comment to make.That these vehicles are are very economical on fuel.and blipping the accelerator when changing down was wasteful!
I apologised and promised to change my ways,but kept my thoughts to myself.
IMHO the extra cost of fuel used is negligable against the cost of replacing the clutch and wearing the synchro cones in the 'box.In all my years driving,I’ve never had a clutch replaced in a truck I was driving.
One of the reasons I was told not to blip the throttle with a syncro box was that by increasing the revs you were actually making the syncro cones work harder than if you let the throttle idle, also you should use your brakes to slow down so that when you release the clutch engine revs do not rise sharply. This was from a Mercedes instructor many years ago when the company I worked for swapped a load of ERF,s for 1625 Mercs. Another thing we had to change was not changing down until you knew what gear you needed to accelerate away, i.e. leaving it in top gear then changing down to 5th at 15mph to pull away at roundabouts, after years of driving a ■■■■■■■■ fuller ERF it was completely alien but once you got used to it it was much easier and considerably less work during the course of a days work.
When I took my test (1992) I wasn’t expecting any problems as I could already double de-clutch from driving old land-Rovers and other intersting things with crash boxes. The lorry had a synchro gearbox with no range change, just a splitter. I could just about cope with selecting the right gear but remember to double de clutch for a main gear change but not for a split was just too much. Still, it sunk in in the end.
I don’t double de-clutch in modern lorries any more but I do blip the accelerator to match the revs on a down change to save the clutch. Also, a rough gearchange on a greasy road could cause a jacknife.
Thinking about it, with a crash box you can change gear without the clutch (with practice!), only using it when stopping and starting. Obviously this can be done with synchro but would it be OK? I’m not for a minute suggesting you try to teach learners how to do this, just interested for myself!
I struggled with the 4 over 4 when I was learning, a lot of the confusion is caused by not knowing what gear you are actually in, for example when approaching roundabouts if you don’t know what gear you’re in you don’t know what gear to change down to.
What I found helped was that if i ever had some spare time sitting in my car I would practice going up and down the gears using an imaginary range change switch on the front of the gear lever
Tony1968:
Thinking about it, with a crash box you can change gear without the clutch (with practice!), only using it when stopping and starting. Obviously this can be done with synchro but would it be OK? I’m not for a minute suggesting you try to teach learners how to do this, just interested for myself!
I dont know if it causes damage but I can drive a manual car or truck if the clutch is not working - a trait which a lot of younger drivers have not been taught or even know about.
A few years ago I came across a lorry on the A10 at cheshunt where it was causing a long traffic queue - I parked behind it as it made no difference to the queue and found that the clutch had gone. the driver in his early 30s had no idea what to do so we switched lorries and he followed me into a side turn where I then explained to him how I drove it.