If I was the judge I’d adjourn the case pending further technical investigations.There’s no reason not to believe the statement that the vehicle had suffered from a previous undetermined intermittent and so far unexplained loss of braking.IE can it be established beyond doubt that there is no design flaw or manufacturing installation fault that could possibly result in any ABS technical issue that won’t fail safe for example.
It’s also surprising that the prosecution hasn’t seemed to ask the driver and provided his answers regards same as to the question exactly what gear was the vehicle in during the descent of the hill preferably backed up by confirmation of how it was found on investigation.Or provided technical evidence as to exactly what was the condition of the braking lining friction surfaces and drums in terms of any expected heat damage or lack of.
windrush:
Would the ABS not working actually affect the braking efficiency though, I thought that it was just there to stop wheel locking on ice or in the wet? I believe the road was dry? My Volvo car had the warning light on for almost a year (until I sorted it for MOT) but it still braked exactly the same on ordinary dry roads, as have other vehicles I have driven with an ABS fault showing. Same with exhaust brakes, yes they are handy but not essential and the ones I had (when they hadn’t been dissconnected!) were only really effective on slight inclines and you would still need to feather the service brake, unlike a Jake brake which I believe would slow you down on a steep hill like the accident site, though I never actually drove a truck fitted with one.
To me, speaking from an armchair, it seems that the truck was going far too fast for the incline from when he first turned onto it and even with 100% efficient brakes he would have had a job to stop it quickly, ‘go down hills in the same gear you would go up them in’ used to work well enough!
Pete.
Having been down that hill fully laden dozens and dozens, of times. It was a foregone conclusion of some sort of incident as soon as he turned on to it with overheated brakes. I took the same route they did from the motorway, there’s a bit of a downhill about 3 miles away then you climb on to probably nearly two miles of flat adjacent to the racecourse. With normal sensible driving there would be absolutely no reason for the brakes to be overheated beforehand unless you were braking late and heavily from excessive speed.
To me, the apportion of blame, so far, seems to go one of two ways.
If his boss left the quarry, whilst the lad was still being loaded, and put no pressure on him and allowed him to follow at his own speed but he took it on himself to try and clever ■■■■ and catch his boss up. Then the driver needs the most blame.
If his boss, instructed him to follow him, on a route he was unfamiliar with, so was under pressure to keep up, or he knew the route and the boss set the pace and he felt pressure to keep up then the boss takes the most blame for the accident.
Or, I guess, it’s possible they were both driving like a pair of dicks racing.
Bearing in mind that the prosecution has gone for badly maintained defective brakes in addition to the contradiction of bad driving causing cooked brakes any decent defence team should concentrate on damaging the prosecution’s case on those grounds.IE the prosecution has compromised proving beyond doubt it being a bad driving scenario by also introducing the issue of brake condition.When it can only really be one or the other because a driver can’t be proved beyond reasonable doubt to be responsible for cooking brakes which aren’t working properly to start with.Let alone when that prosecution seems to have avoided placing clear relevant information regarding essential technical information like what gear was the thing in during the decent and what condition regards evidence of excessive heat or any inbalance in that regard were the brakes found in.
AndrewG:
ABS wont have any impact at all on how well the brakes work on a dry road at least…
It does improve stopping distances considerably even in dry conditions under emergency braking but isn’t really relevant to a runaway scenario.
.
Mmm…debatable, on a long hill empty trailer and braking hard on a dry road abs will kick in but fully loaded on a dry road and theres no brakes out there which are going to lock a wheel up. ABS is more related to wet/ icy conditions, even then its not the life saver some make out, driving with all manner of ‘safety’ aids can give a false sense of security and isolate the driver from whats really going on under him…
AndrewG:
ABS wont have any impact at all on how well the brakes work on a dry road at least…
It does improve stopping distances considerably even in dry conditions under emergency braking but isn’t really relevant to a runaway scenario.
.
Mmm…debatable, on a long hill empty trailer and braking hard on a dry road abs will kick in but fully loaded on a dry road and theres no brakes out there which are going to lock a wheel up. ABS is more related to wet/ icy conditions, even then its not the life saver some make out, driving with all manner of ‘safety’ aids can give a false sense of security and isolate the driver from whats really going on under him…
I do dynamic brake tests quite often with a loaded trailer on a customers airfield which is basically an emergency stop from being on the limiter and the ABS always cycles.
windrush:
To me, speaking from an armchair, it seems that the truck was going far too fast for the incline from when he first turned onto it and even with 100% efficient brakes he would have had a job to stop it quickly, ‘go down hills in the same gear you would go up them in’ used to work well enough!
Pete.
It sounds like they were running in convoy and the boss got stopped though
Juddian:
This thread is bringing memories back of sliding under trailers when parked on some suitable ground and nipping the adjusters up with part of your lorry driver standard equipment, 9/16th ring and small hammer , sounds like for the odd operation nothing has changed.
One of those skills that you got taught by another driver, many a dark winds swept early morning spent doing that on one quay or another when I started doing unaccompanied trailers
Juddian:
This thread is bringing memories back of sliding under trailers when parked on some suitable ground and nipping the adjusters up with part of your lorry driver standard equipment, 9/16th ring and small hammer , sounds like for the odd operation nothing has changed.
One of those skills that you got taught by another driver, many a dark winds swept early morning spent doing that on one quay or another when I started doing unaccompanied trailers
Yep one of those skills passed on from driver to driver, thanks for the education bruv
And why is the coldest place on earth a dark, wind swept, quay in winter.
A search on the ‘net shows Grittenhams’ base as also once being occupied by Flatlight Haulage. I remember them in the '90s running out of Wooton Bassett sidings (Johnson Aggs). IIRC they were known better as “Flatout.”
Juddian:
This thread is bringing memories back of sliding under trailers when parked on some suitable ground and nipping the adjusters up with part of your lorry driver standard equipment, 9/16th ring and small hammer , sounds like for the odd operation nothing has changed.
One of those skills that you got taught by another driver, many a dark winds swept early morning spent doing that on one quay or another when I started doing unaccompanied trailers
Yep one of those skills passed on from driver to driver, thanks for the education bruv
And why is the coldest place on earth a dark, wind swept, quay in winter.
I’ve put the night heater on just thinking about it
AndrewG:
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.
No such symptom as “Long brake pedal travel”, on full air brakes! This would be a symptom on hydraulic brakes.
Thank you Ian. Exactly right, which is why I said it’s not easy to tell if they’re out of adjustment when you’re driving normally, as in steady.
Juddian:
This thread is bringing memories back of sliding under trailers when parked on some suitable ground and nipping the adjusters up with part of your lorry driver standard equipment, 9/16th ring and small hammer , sounds like for the odd operation nothing has changed.
One of those skills that you got taught by another driver, many a dark winds swept early morning spent doing that on one quay or another when I started doing unaccompanied trailers
Yep one of those skills passed on from driver to driver, thanks for the education bruv
And why is the coldest place on earth a dark, wind swept, quay in winter.
Just like getting a puncture only you forgot pouring with rain as well.
ABS stands for Anti LOCK Braking System. There’s no way a knackered brake assembly or more going to give feedback to the ABS unit. We’re all aware when brake pads get low… the light comes on the dash!
A former driver, is giving evidence and painting a picture of all sorts of maintenance issues with the truck. Which you kind of think, well, this doesn’t sound great but, then he totally undermines his credibilty with this :
Mr Martin said that one “constant worry” he had was about the L8 CMT lorry.
He said that, on Monday mornings, after the lorry had not been driven for a couple of days, there was no air in the tanks so a siren would come on warning not to release the handbrake. Mr Martin said he would leave the truck running until the air tanks filled up before he would release the handbrake.
Own Account Driver:
A former driver, is giving evidence and painting a picture of all sorts of maintenance issues with the truck. Which you kind of think, well, this doesn’t sound great but, then he totally undermines his credibilty with this :
Mr Martin said that one “constant worry” he had was about the L8 CMT lorry.
He said that, on Monday mornings, after the lorry had not been driven for a couple of days, there was no air in the tanks so a siren would come on warning not to release the handbrake. Mr Martin said he would leave the truck running until the air tanks filled up before he would release the handbrake.
To which the obvious questions are did the vehicle then show any signs of loss of air to any noticeable degree on its gauges during the course of the working day or during a journey.If so was this reported in the defect notes.
Is there any evidence that the vehicle had cooked brakes controlled by spring actuation with,if any,others remaining cold.
Own Account Driver:
A former driver, is giving evidence and painting a picture of all sorts of maintenance issues with the truck. Which you kind of think, well, this doesn’t sound great but, then he totally undermines his credibilty with this :
Mr Martin said that one “constant worry” he had was about the L8 CMT lorry.
He said that, on Monday mornings, after the lorry had not been driven for a couple of days, there was no air in the tanks so a siren would come on warning not to release the handbrake. Mr Martin said he would leave the truck running until the air tanks filled up before he would release the handbrake.
Like Windrush said of the Sowerby Bridge incident. Looks like some heads will roll on this one too… But it doesn’t just happen to the road tansport industry.
Anybody on here watch that series on National Geographic. Air Crash Investigation? There’s a similar situation with attitude to maintenance sometimes.
Last one I saw, ’ sender unit not available for the wing tank’. Captain calculated he had enough fuel to go from ? in the States to just over the border in Canada?..
As they say sometimes on the intro to programme… ‘’ Disaster is a result of a culmination of errors’'.
The aircraft case above… One of it’s engines cut… followed shortly after by the other. Thankfully, it glided for god know’s how many miles & flaked out on a f****n race track frequented by a load of dragtrack mechants who;d just folded up for the day.
Upon the investigation, the guy on the fuel tanker miscalculated kilograms for pounds… and put the pounds in. ( short fall if it Ks )
So Folks. Think twice with that economy Air line. and all the sundry crew
The harshest punishment handed out relating to the Sowerby Bridge incident was the managing director and transport manager getting a ban from holding an operators licence, the company received a £5000 fine and the CPS dropped a case of manslaughter!
The driver was cleared of any blame.
A charge of corporate manslaughter didn’t exist back then.
simon1958:
Like Windrush said of the Sowerby Bridge incident. Looks like some heads will roll on this one too… But it doesn’t just happen to the road tansport industry.
As they say sometimes on the intro to programme… ‘’ Disaster is a result of a culmination of errors’'.
There’s something about the statements by different people related to the vehicle that seem to ‘possibly’ suggest that a shambolic/dodgy operating regime might actually divert attention.From what could possibly be an ABS design or installation issue at the manufacturing stage affecting this specific vehicle and therefore possibly others. IE is there any possibility that the ABS system has an intermittent problem that doesn’t fail safe and blocks driver braking inputs.I’d say that the trial should be adjourned until that question has been answered beyond doubt.
On that note what is meant here by ‘if the ABS fails the vehicle is left with some brakes’.
Or if a foot valve switch fault can cause an uncommanded application of the rear brakes what stops a similar fault resulting in vice versa ?.
simon1958:
Like Windrush said of the Sowerby Bridge incident. Looks like some heads will roll on this one too… But it doesn’t just happen to the road tansport industry.
As they say sometimes on the intro to programme… ‘’ Disaster is a result of a culmination of errors’'.
There’s something about the statements by different people related to the vehicle that seem to ‘possibly’ suggest that a shambolic/dodgy operating regime might actually divert attention.From what could possibly be an ABS design or installation issue at the manufacturing stage affecting this specific vehicle and therefore possibly others. IE is there any possibility that the ABS system has an intermittent problem that doesn’t fail safe and blocks driver braking inputs.I’d say that the trial should be adjourned until that question has been answered beyond doubt.
simon1958:
Like Windrush said of the Sowerby Bridge incident. Looks like some heads will roll on this one too… But it doesn’t just happen to the road tansport industry.
As they say sometimes on the intro to programme… ‘’ Disaster is a result of a culmination of errors’'.
There’s something about the statements by different people related to the vehicle that seem to ‘possibly’ suggest that a shambolic/dodgy operating regime might actually divert attention.From what could possibly be an ABS design or installation issue at the manufacturing stage affecting this specific vehicle and therefore possibly others. IE is there any possibility that the ABS system has an intermittent problem that doesn’t fail safe and blocks driver braking inputs.I’d say that the trial should be adjourned until that question has been answered beyond doubt.
Sums it up. Short cuts for profit!..
Let’s just say that the whole case could/should collapse if it can possibly be shown that ABS could fail in a way which causes any type of reduced braking performance than it would otherwise have if it wasn’t there.
simon1958:
Like Windrush said of the Sowerby Bridge incident. Looks like some heads will roll on this one too… But it doesn’t just happen to the road tansport industry.
As they say sometimes on the intro to programme… ‘’ Disaster is a result of a culmination of errors’'.
On that note what is meant here by ‘if the ABS fails the vehicle is left with some brakes’.
Or if a foot valve switch fault can cause an uncommanded application of the rear brakes what stops a similar fault resulting in vice versa ?.
An interesting article. Perhaps more worrying is an EBS failure of the rear modulating valve on vehicles not fitted with a redundancy valve. In some examples there is no pneumatic trigger to operate the rear brakes at all. This has been the subject of some discussion on here in the past.
, sounds like for the odd operation nothing has changed.
: