Four people dead in Bath after truck incident [Merged]

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
581

windrush:
The last two trucks I drove both had the exhaust brake blanked off, I just drove accordingly as we all did before they were a general fitment. So I assume that this Scania had drum brakes fitted all round then and not discs, I’m not familiar with the make but my only experience of automatic adjusters is that they only started working when the brake was well out of adjustment. My 3000 series Foden needed manual adjustment virtually from new as the autos just didn’t seem to ‘kick in’ until the brakes were getting poor, not ideal in the Peak District!

Pete.

Me and you guilty as charged re dodgy exhaust brakes, Pete. Foden exhaust brakes made a token ■■■■■■■ noise and that was it.
And the Bath Chronicle report mentions they came from Shorncote quarry, so why is Shorncote still censured?

582

Own Account Driver:
By the sounds of it, although he clearly is not competent, the fitter’s oversights didn’t cause the accident so not sure he should be in court.

Unless, something else comes to light the mechanical defects are thus:

Slack adjuster brackets and anchor plates, wrong settings - Very poor this was not spotted and addressed. However, my presumption is, what’s being referred to, are the brackets that hold the internal mechanism of automatic slack adjusters, in a fixed postion, this enables them to do their job of constantly tightening up to avoid the need for manual adjustment. The reason for this adjustment is to keep the shoes the same distance from the drums as the brake material wears. The worst case scenario would be they are so far from the drums, due to shoe wear, that the s cam flips but I’m sure they would have made something of it if that was the case.

The 3 series Scania used to do this if the linings were more than half worn ISTR. The price of Haldex automatic slack adjusters has come down in recent years, but they used to be expensive enough for hauliers both large and small to be very loth to renew them. It was a hard job to convince whoever held the ■■■■■ strings that you cannot rely on manually adjusting a worn out auto S/A, because the thing can, and does, start very slowly winding the brake off when the ratchet is knackered. I came across a 2421 SK Merc some years ago which had been maintained for many years by the same garage (of excellent repute). However some misguided person had decided he was acting in his customer’s best interests and saving him money by making up little brackets to fit over the adjusting hexagon to prevent it from backing off the brake. He had done this on three of the bogie brakes and one front brake. At the time Haldex slack adjuster were about £200 each, that was a very difficult conversation with a new customer who was extremely reluctant to replace any, let alone 4 .

Roller brake testing is not the be all and end all of deciding whether brakes are any good or not. VoSA themselves have made matters worse by deleting the lead and lag test (imbalance) for class 4, 5 and 7 vehicles. Instead now everything is tested the same way as HGV always have been, but this does not adequately highlight brakes which pull to one side, which running both rollers at the same time most certainly used to do.

583

Incidents such as this are not exactly common place meaning there were factors that added up to give the end result. A fully serviceable vehicle driven in an appropriate manner would not have been a problem.

We know from evidence so far there was an ABS light on and the driver still drove it. We don’t know colour of light or if he was told to drive it. (Do we?). We know the brakes were poorly maintained and only 2 out of 8 were considered serviceable. We know they were going a bit fast. We know they were laden. We know the driver possibly lacked experience. We know the exhaust brake wasn’t working. We know they ignored a restriction on the road.

From what I have read and from my understanding of O licence requirements and maintenance requirements the vehicle should not have been on the road at all. That is going to heavily influence the outcome. Whether the driver as a relative novice knew the vehicle shouldn’t be in service is another matter.

I can foresee the driver being able to talk his way out of some of the responsibility but I think the evidence so far stacks heavily against the operator and mechanic.

584

AndrewG:
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.

No such symptom as “Long brake pedal travel”, on full air brakes! This would be a symptom on hydraulic brakes.

585

This thread is bringing memories back of sliding under trailers when parked on some suitable ground and nipping the adjusters up with part of your lorry driver standard equipment, 9/16th ring and small hammer :open_mouth: , sounds like for the odd operation nothing has changed.

586

bestbooties:

AndrewG:
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.

No such symptom as “Long brake pedal travel”, on full air brakes! This would be a symptom on hydraulic brakes.

Try it on a truck with completely ■■■■■■ brakes and you’ll see what i mean, it may feel ok at a standstill but once braking on the move different scenario…

587

AndrewG:

bestbooties:

AndrewG:
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.

No such symptom as “Long brake pedal travel”, on full air brakes! This would be a symptom on hydraulic brakes.

Try it on a truck with completely [zb] brakes and you’ll see what i mean, it may feel ok at a standstill but once braking on the move different scenario…

does the feeling come from air-lag as the system waits for the system to charge the slave cylinder of a brake with excessive travel?.

588

On the local Bristol news last night it stated that the crashed truck was making its fourth delivery of aggregate to the park and ride site as you enter Bath on the A4. On that basis the truck must have been down that hill already on the day. The road where the accident happened brings you out quite close to the park and ride.
Without going down that road the only other road into Bath is a 3.5 ton limit . A mixer truck ran away down this hill into the centre of Bath years ago and crashed into the front of a hotel at the bottom
The legal way would have been down the A46 that comes out well over the other side of Bath and going that way it might be pushing it to do three loads.

589

Bluey Circles:

AndrewG:

bestbooties:

AndrewG:
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.

No such symptom as “Long brake pedal travel”, on full air brakes! This would be a symptom on hydraulic brakes.

Try it on a truck with completely [zb] brakes and you’ll see what i mean, it may feel ok at a standstill but once braking on the move different scenario…

does the feeling come from air-lag as the system waits for the system to charge the slave cylinder of a brake with excessive travel?.

On full air brakes, the operation of the footbrake is only opening a valve, whereas on hydraulic brakes you would be moving a piston in a cylinder, therefore out of adjustment brakes would show up as excess brake pedal travel.
Low air pressure may manifest itself by less feedback on the brake pedal but would not affect the length of travel.
But let’s face it, who checks the travel or feel of the footbrake pedal on your morning check list apart from that the brakes operate when you first move the vehicle?
If this driver was new to the vehicle, he was probably not aware of the “Feel” of the brake pedal.

590

Bluey Circles:

AndrewG:

bestbooties:

AndrewG:
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.

No such symptom as “Long brake pedal travel”, on full air brakes! This would be a symptom on hydraulic brakes.

Try it on a truck with completely [zb] brakes and you’ll see what i mean, it may feel ok at a standstill but once braking on the move different scenario…

does the feeling come from air-lag as the system waits for the system to charge the slave cylinder of a brake with excessive travel?.

If the things are out of adjustment ( or cooked ) you’ll obviously have less leverage acting on the linings and less friction against the drums for the equivalent foot brake valve input/opening.On that note there’s no real difference between the ‘feel’ of an air brake valve v a hydraulic cylinder in the case of brake fade etc.IE loads of braking input but very little braking force and retardation at the wheels in response.The question in this case being how can they build a case seemingly based on both excessive reliance on the brakes to deal with excessive speed ‘and’ badly maintained marginally working brakes at the same time.When logically it can only be one or the other confirmed by either all the linings and drums being cooked.Or just a few with the others remaining cold.Or even all the brakes not showing signs of any severe heating at all.

591

shep532:
I can foresee the driver being able to talk his way out of some of the responsibility but I think the evidence so far stacks heavily against the operator and mechanic.

Realistically his only mitigation is going to take some detailed questioning of the prosecution’s expert witnesses by a defence expert witness regarding whether all the brakes showed signs of severe heating,or only some,or even none.If it was either of the latter that would obviously put more emphasis on the case against the operator/mechanic.While raising questions concerning the contradiction in the prosecution’s case of both bad driving having over loaded the brakes and bad maintenance having taken away the vehicle’s braking ability.When logically it can only be one or the other with no way of proving the former beyond reasonable doubt in the case of the latter. :bulb:

Unfortunately I really wouldn’t want to be the driver in this case because it’s not looking good for him as it stands.

592

Would the ABS not working actually affect the braking efficiency though, I thought that it was just there to stop wheel locking on ice or in the wet? I believe the road was dry? My Volvo car had the warning light on for almost a year (until I sorted it for MOT) but it still braked exactly the same on ordinary dry roads, as have other vehicles I have driven with an ABS fault showing. Same with exhaust brakes, yes they are handy but not essential and the ones I had (when they hadn’t been dissconnected!) were only really effective on slight inclines and you would still need to feather the service brake, unlike a Jake brake which I believe would slow you down on a steep hill like the accident site, though I never actually drove a truck fitted with one.

To me, speaking from an armchair, it seems that the truck was going far too fast for the incline from when he first turned onto it and even with 100% efficient brakes he would have had a job to stop it quickly, ‘go down hills in the same gear you would go up them in’ used to work well enough!

Pete.

593

windrush:
To me, speaking from an armchair, it seems that the truck was going far too fast for the incline from when he first turned onto it and even with 100% efficient brakes he would have had a job to stop it quickly, ‘go down hills in the same gear you would go up them in’ used to work well enough!

Pete.

Firstly going back to the start of the topic it’s obvious that there has been a change in the training regime which puts too much emphasis on use of brakes and too little on the nature of their limitations and the need to conserve them and manage them in the form of essential use of engine braking every where at all times.IE if they get too hot they are gone.

While realistically it’s either a case of cooked brakes caused by trying to drive a heavy truck like a badly driven car ‘or’ defective brakes it can’t be both.Or at least not both proven beyond reasonable doubt.

594

It sounds like prosecuting counsel is becoming a bit full of his own self importance bamboozling the jury with mention of an inoperative exhaust brake. While it is a testable item (58) the method of inspection in the manual indicates that it is a visual inspection only, with a relevant rejection being highlighted if it is clear that it cannot work (because it is disconnected). IIRC there is a dash switch on a Scania to turn it off anyway.

595

bathchronicle.co.uk/bath-tip … story.html

Whole thing starting to sound like a right mess. Doesn’t sound like the original mechanic, come driver, come transport manager was up to much either.

Big questions for VOSA as they had been notified the original TM had resigned.

Allegedly the vehicle brakes failed once whilst the original TM was driving but not in his original statement so sounds a bit iffy to me I’m sure anyone would mention that immediately. The brakes were clearly working as the car behind could smell them before it even turned off on to the hill.

I think it seems a bit unrealistic for a nineteen year old, having finally found somewhere that will take them on with no experience, to stand up to their boss on both the ABS light and the route.

I’ve not heard compelling evidence the mechanic is massively culpable. The main thing for me is how much of a willing participant the lad was. If, for example he did not know the rat run route, and so was pushing the vehicle harder than it could tolerate to keep his boss in sight who was making insufficient allowance for his inexperience. Or he knew the route and was just driving the vehicle poorly with a lot of uncontroled last minute braking from speed as a willing particpant in cracking on to get one last load in.

I would be interested to know how much the boss had spent on parts for the vehicle since the last mot.

596

cav551:
It sounds like prosecuting counsel is becoming a bit full of his own self importance bamboozling the jury with mention of an inoperative exhaust brake. While it is a testable item (58) the method of inspection in the manual indicates that it is a visual inspection only, with a relevant rejection being highlighted if it is clear that it cannot work (because it is disconnected). IIRC there is a dash switch on a Scania to turn it off anyway.

Plenty of average joe public motorists happily drive round with the ABS light on their car illuminated so not sure it will have as much impact as the prosecution imagines.

597

ABS wont have any impact at all on how well the brakes work on a dry road at least…

598

shep532:
Incidents such as this are not exactly common place meaning there were factors that added up to give the end result. A fully serviceable vehicle driven in an appropriate manner would not have been a problem.

We know from evidence so far there was an ABS light on and the driver still drove it. We don’t know colour of light or if he was told to drive it. (Do we?). We know the brakes were poorly maintained and only 2 out of 8 were considered serviceable. We know they were going a bit fast. We know they were laden. We know the driver possibly lacked experience. We know the exhaust brake wasn’t working. We know they ignored a restriction on the road.

From what I have read and from my understanding of O licence requirements and maintenance requirements the vehicle should not have been on the road at all. That is going to heavily influence the outcome. Whether the driver as a relative novice knew the vehicle shouldn’t be in service is another matter.

I can foresee the driver being able to talk his way out of some of the responsibility but I think the evidence so far stacks heavily against the operator and mechanic.

Well, I wouldn’t be driving it anywhere with the ABS light on but, on the evidence presented, so far, I’m pretty sure I, and the vast majority of responsible drivers could have driven it to its destination in the mechanical condition it was in. As an ABS sensor has been mentioned I would assume an amber light and I’m sure they would have mentioned it otherwise.

It was certainly a seemingly badly run operation that as a new operator, in a well know sector for issues, VOSA should have been all over like a rash. However, none of the issues yet really make a solid case. He was employing outside people to do the maintenance, we don’t know what he was spending on parts. It’s not the open and shut case of the shoes on the two front axles all worn down to the rivets or something like that.

599

AndrewG:
ABS wont have any impact at all on how well the brakes work on a dry road at least…

It does improve stopping distances considerably even in dry conditions under emergency braking but isn’t really relevant to a runaway scenario.

The prosecution is just trying to paint a picture of cowboy operator accident waiting to happen.

600

windrush:
Would the ABS not working actually affect the braking efficiency though, I thought that it was just there to stop wheel locking on ice or in the wet? I believe the road was dry? My Volvo car had the warning light on for almost a year (until I sorted it for MOT) but it still braked exactly the same on ordinary dry roads, as have other vehicles I have driven with an ABS fault showing. Same with exhaust brakes, yes they are handy but not essential and the ones I had (when they hadn’t been dissconnected!) were only really effective on slight inclines and you would still need to feather the service brake, unlike a Jake brake which I believe would slow you down on a steep hill like the accident site, though I never actually drove a truck fitted with one.

To me, speaking from an armchair, it seems that the truck was going far too fast for the incline from when he first turned onto it and even with 100% efficient brakes he would have had a job to stop it quickly, ‘go down hills in the same gear you would go up them in’ used to work well enough!

Pete.

Having been down that hill fully laden dozens and dozens, of times. It was a foregone conclusion of some sort of incident as soon as he turned on to it with overheated brakes. I took the same route they did from the motorway, there’s a bit of a downhill about 3 miles away then you climb on to probably nearly two miles of flat adjacent to the racecourse. With normal sensible driving there would be absolutely no reason for the brakes to be overheated beforehand unless you were braking late and heavily from excessive speed.

To me, the apportion of blame, so far, seems to go one of two ways.

If his boss left the quarry, whilst the lad was still being loaded, and put no pressure on him and allowed him to follow at his own speed but he took it on himself to try and clever ■■■■ and catch his boss up. Then the driver needs the most blame.

If his boss, instructed him to follow him, on a route he was unfamiliar with, so was under pressure to keep up, or he knew the route and the boss set the pace and he felt pressure to keep up then the boss takes the most blame for the accident.

Or, I guess, it’s possible they were both driving like a pair of dicks racing.