They’ve probably had the laptop plugged into the OBD Pete.
Should be able to tell them when the fault/issue was first present.
Well, here you have it, he cooked the brakes from a combination of inexperience and reckless driving.
The person who should also be in the dock is the one responsible for allowing inexperienced teenagers to drive 32 tonnes. Government policy to address driver shortages has cost lives.
This trial is a whitewash, attempting to convince the public, various maintenance or hours issues were the problem. They were not. None of them either in combination, or alone, caused the catastrophic failure of the brakes it was because they were burnt.
An older more sensible and experienced driver would either not have driven in a manner that created that situation or would have recognised the symptoms.
toby1234abc:
On European, if you did two ten hour drives, and four nine hour drives, at 56 mph flat out, no delays, that equates to 3136 miles in one week .
You could easily double that (and more) with a truck used for e.g. trunking on day and night shifts even on UK work.
How wide was the truck ? As according to the Bath chronicle reporter it 8.5 meters wide [emoji849]
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Own Account Driver:
Well, here you have it, he cooked the brakes from a combination of inexperience and reckless driving.The person who should also be in the dock is the one responsible for allowing inexperienced teenagers to drive 32 tonnes. Government policy to address driver shortages has cost lives.
This trial is a whitewash, attempting to convince the public, various maintenance or hours issues were the problem. They were not. None of them either in combination, or alone, caused the catastrophic failure of the brakes it was because they were burnt.
An older more sensible and experienced driver would either not have driven in a manner that created that situation or would have recognised the symptoms.
How does this older experienced driver get the experience without starting from a position of having none.
As for excessive reliance on brakes either in the form of excessive approach speeds and insufficient use of gears and/or driving too fast on a down grade in too high a gear and cooking the brakes in the process that’s not a driver age issue.
The question then being if only a few brakes are actually working efficiently then they’ll obviously be cooked while the others remain cold even if the thing is being driven correctly.In which case the prosecution evidence would obviously make the heat damage issue clear in either case being a crucial relevant part of the case.The point being that either the brakes were defective.Or they were working but being used excessively beyond that expected of a competent driver.Not both.Bearing in mind that it would be impossible to prove excessive use beyond reasonable doubt in the case of defective brakes and vice versa.
The exhaust brake issue,might also possibly help to explain why the brakes on the vehicle in question were defective through over use as opposed to the driver having been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have over used them.
blue estate:
How wide was the truck ? As according to the Bath chronicle reporter it 8.5 meters wide [emoji849]Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
They conviently got their metres and feet mixed up.
bald bloke:
blue estate:
How wide was the truck ? As according to the Bath chronicle reporter it 8.5 meters wide [emoji849]Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
They conviently got their metres and feet mixed up.
Or length over width
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By the sounds of it, although he clearly is not competent, the fitter’s oversights didn’t cause the accident so not sure he should be in court.
Unless, something else comes to light the mechanical defects are thus:
ABS Light - Clearly this was known about, as he ordered a sensor, truck should be VOR really until rectified as braking would not be optimal. However, it wasn’t wet and functioning ABS would not have prevented the accident.
Lack of grease - meh, attempt to imply maintenance was shoddy, sounds like that was the case but didn’t cause the accident
Slack adjuster brackets and anchor plates, wrong settings - Very poor this was not spotted and addressed. However, my presumption is, what’s being referred to, are the brackets that hold the internal mechanism of automatic slack adjusters, in a fixed postion, this enables them to do their job of constantly tightening up to avoid the need for manual adjustment. The reason for this adjustment is to keep the shoes the same distance from the drums as the brake material wears. The worst case scenario would be they are so far from the drums, due to shoe wear, that the s cam flips but I’m sure they would have made something of it if that was the case.
So it sounds like the shoes were not as close to the drums as they should have been which would not really cause a major problem. Rather than the shoes being too close to the drums and binding which would be a significant factor in contributing to the overheated brakes.
Carryfast:
Own Account Driver:
Well, here you have it, he cooked the brakes from a combination of inexperience and reckless driving.The person who should also be in the dock is the one responsible for allowing inexperienced teenagers to drive 32 tonnes. Government policy to address driver shortages has cost lives.
This trial is a whitewash, attempting to convince the public, various maintenance or hours issues were the problem. They were not. None of them either in combination, or alone, caused the catastrophic failure of the brakes it was because they were burnt.
An older more sensible and experienced driver would either not have driven in a manner that created that situation or would have recognised the symptoms.
How does this older experienced driver get the experience without starting from a position of having none.
As for excessive reliance on brakes either in the form of excessive approach speeds and insufficient use of gears and/or driving too fast on a down grade in too high a gear and cooking the brakes in the process that’s not a driver age issue.
The question then being if only a few brakes are actually working efficiently then they’ll obviously be cooked while the others remain cold even if the thing is being driven correctly.In which case the prosecution evidence would obviously make the heat damage issue clear in either case being a crucial relevant part of the case.The point being that either the brakes were defective.Or they were working but being used excessively beyond that expected of a competent driver.Not both.Bearing in mind that it would be impossible to prove excessive use beyond reasonable doubt in the case of defective brakes and vice versa.
The exhaust brake issue,might also possibly help to explain why the brakes on the vehicle in question were defective through over use as opposed to the driver having been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have over used them.
As I originally suspected, at the start of the thread, the witnesss evidence now confirms he had overheated the service brakes prior to the descent.
Driving experience can be gained from driving a range of smaller vehicles, in a variety, of circumstances, learning their characteristics. This is safer for everyone.
Everyone has heard of the phrase ‘boy racer’ no-one ever talks about ‘pensioner racer’. An older wiser head would not drive a fully laden truck in the same manner they drive their Citroen Saxo and this is why he cooked the brakes. His boss was negligent also though in clearly egging an inexperienced driver on.
See my previous post explaining automatic slack adjusters it would cause a problem eventually, although clearly not ideal or how the system was designed, it would not cause any real issue, if anything result in the brakes being cooler by more air circulating between the shoe and drum. It is the same sort of thing as the auto adjuster on rear drum brakes on cars to reduce handbrake travel.
Exhaust brakes are not an MOT item.
Own Account Driver:
Slack adjuster brackets and anchor plates, wrong settings - Very poor this was not spotted and addressed. However, my presumption is, what’s being referred to, are the brackets that hold the internal mechanism of automatic slack adjusters, in a fixed postion, this enables them to do their job of constantly tightening up to avoid the need for manual adjustment. The reason for this adjustment is to keep the shoes the same distance from the drums as the brake material wears. The worst case scenario would be they are so far from the drums, due to shoe wear, that the s cam flips but I’m sure they would have made something of it if that was the case.So it sounds like the shoes were not as close to the drums as they should have been which would not really cause a major problem.
It depends how much slack is being described.
The question is then can it be established beyond reasonable doubt that any/all of those issues aren’t the result of cooked brakes.IE can the previous adjustment/actuation status of the brakes of a run away truck be reliably established.Other than the linings showing no evidence of any heating if not severe heat damage which might be a game changer in that regard. 
Own Account Driver:
muckles:
Socketset:
Ok, so so far we have a very steep hill, a very inexperienced driver and only 25% braking efficiency.It really wasn’t going to end well, was it.
It remains to be seen which, out of the two trucks (presumably both eight wheelers) had the worst brakes.
If the “boss” knew the brakes were worse in the other lorry (which looks quite possible as the he had managed to stop) then shame on him for giving a kid a death trap.
Beyond words, really.
I don’t want to seem ageist but maybe younger guys and gals should be restricted to 7.5t then 18t etc so as to be over twentyfive by the time they get to 44t.
As eager said at the age of nineteen you don’t have enough general driving experience with any vehicle.
Yes its shocking and considering how long it’s taken to come to trial I think we’ll hear a lot more shocking stuff from this.
As for age being a factor, well it sounds similar to the Soweby bridge crash years ago and that driver was 63, so I don’t think there is a need to review the age because of this incident.As Carryfast said how do you get experience if you can’t get behind the wheel? You’re not going to learn it in a car.
You can learn plenty about driving by getting valuable road experience in smaller lighter vehicles that cause less damage if things go wrong. Certainly the blokes in the car would have lived if it had been a runaway Transit van.
My point exactly - if it’s a smaller vehicle less likelyhood of a dreadful scenario like we’re discussing today.
Similar to motorcycles - they brought in all those restrictions on cc and horsepower years ago to stop young chaps not reaching the age of twentyone.
Anyway, today has brought forth even more items of dismay - and it said in todays Western Daily Press that the owner basically couldn’t be arsed to faff about with TM, they’re not relevant and cost money.
One thing I did think of - if the young guy had only been on the firm a few days, who drove the truck before he started and why did he leave, sacked or jacked?
As for Sowerby Bridge, I remember it well.
The 63 year old driver was a retired police officer.
Own Account Driver:
Carryfast:
How does this older experienced driver get the experience without starting from a position of having none.As for excessive reliance on brakes either in the form of excessive approach speeds and insufficient use of gears and/or driving too fast on a down grade in too high a gear and cooking the brakes in the process that’s not a driver age issue.
The question then being if only a few brakes are actually working efficiently then they’ll obviously be cooked while the others remain cold even if the thing is being driven correctly.In which case the prosecution evidence would obviously make the heat damage issue clear in either case being a crucial relevant part of the case.The point being that either the brakes were defective.Or they were working but being used excessively beyond that expected of a competent driver.Not both.Bearing in mind that it would be impossible to prove excessive use beyond reasonable doubt in the case of defective brakes and vice versa.
The exhaust brake issue,might also possibly help to explain why the brakes on the vehicle in question were defective through over use as opposed to the driver having been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have over used them.
As I originally suspected, at the start of the thread, the witnesss evidence now confirms he had overheated the service brakes prior to the descent.
Driving experience can be gained from driving a range of smaller vehicles, in a variety, of circumstances, learning their characteristics. This is safer for everyone.
Everyone has heard of the phrase ‘boy racer’ no-one ever talks about ‘pensioner racer’. An older wiser head would not drive a fully laden truck in the same manner they drive their Citroen Saxo and this is why he cooked the brakes. His boss was negligent also though in clearly egging an inexperienced driver on.
See my previous post explaining automatic slack adjusters it would cause a problem eventually, although clearly not ideal or how the system was designed, it would not cause any real issue, if anything result in the brakes being cooler by more air circulating between the shoe and drum. It is the same sort of thing as the auto adjuster on rear drum brakes on cars to reduce handbrake travel.
Exhaust brakes are not an MOT item.
I’d have described myself as a ‘boy racer’ at the age of 17 and 25.The difference is that I was taught to drive by my father who was more of a boy racer than me in his 50’s 
but who’d driven Diamond T tank transporters in WW2 and after around Northern Italy and Austria at the age of 18.IE stereotypes are unhelpful in establishing the issues regarding what might have been a run away truck caused either by excessive speed and over reliance on brakes or by defective brakes but not possibly both.Regardless of whether it’s a truck or a car. 
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.
At the pre sentence court hearing, the judge will instruct the jury to cast aside their emotions with regards to loss of life of the young girl and the men in the car.
The judge will say stick to the facts.
The techical facts and construction of truck braking component parts will bamboozle the jury , who will have no clue on how a truck works .
The prosecution will bring in a so called expert , who will convince the jury with technical facts and figures to suit the agenda .
The media are thick and ignorant, and too lazy to get their facts correct, they know Joe Public will believe anything they say .
AndrewG:
As Own account driver mentions, badly adjusted brakes wont have any impact re overheating although it can cause major brake imbalance if adjustment is all over the place on different axles, plus long brake pedal travel.
It seems obvious if you’ve got loads of slack in some/most then those won’t be applying as much braking force between shoes and drums as those that remain.The result being some/mostly cold brakes and what remain being too hot.
The question being can the pre accident brake adjustment status of a runaway truck be established when runaways caused by cooked brakes usually result in over heating causing damage to the friction surface on the linings and severe expansion of the drums.IE in this case we’d expect to see some detailed prosecution evidence concerning the status of the linings IE were they all cooked suggesting working brakes but over use or were some cold and only some cooked suggesting brake defects as suggested by the prosecution.While the idea of it being a combination of both doesn’t seem to make sense
The steepest part of that hill is the top, it levels out a bit by the time you get to the accident scene.
Im no CSI, but my thoughts are he cooked the brakes at the top, and didn’t have any braking left at the bottom.
When I descend that hill, my exhaust brake is on from the very start as I know my brakes wouldn’t get me half way down before failing.
I went down there yesterday and had to turn into a little industrial estate half way down, even with my exhaust brake and foot brake I still was going a bit faster than Id have liked when I turned in, I had to drop a gear on the auto box manually to slow enough to feel comfortable.
Combine a very steep hill, cooked brakes and an experienced driver, you sadly have this scenario.
Carryfast:
Own Account Driver:
Slack adjuster brackets and anchor plates, wrong settings - Very poor this was not spotted and addressed. However, my presumption is, what’s being referred to, are the brackets that hold the internal mechanism of automatic slack adjusters, in a fixed postion, this enables them to do their job of constantly tightening up to avoid the need for manual adjustment. The reason for this adjustment is to keep the shoes the same distance from the drums as the brake material wears. The worst case scenario would be they are so far from the drums, due to shoe wear, that the s cam flips but I’m sure they would have made something of it if that was the case.So it sounds like the shoes were not as close to the drums as they should have been which would not really cause a major problem.
It depends how much slack is being described.
The question is then can it be established beyond reasonable doubt that any/all of those issues aren’t the result of cooked brakes.IE can the previous adjustment/actuation status of the brakes of a run away truck be reliably established.Other than the linings showing no evidence of any heating if not severe heat damage which might be a game changer in that regard.
I would have thought they would be making more of it if they were badly worn shoes totally out of adjustment. I would presume outside of manufacturers optimal parameters.
They have to be really out of adjustment to the point the slack adjuster is going to a very acute angle with the brake chamber push rod getting towards its maximum travel before brake efficiency tails off steeply.
I have a feeling the accident may still have happened with different trucks. I think the exhaust brake is maybe significant as if his boss was using gears and exhaust brake to slow and he was trying to keep up he was going to end up with hotter brakes. Unfortunately there was no legal requirement for it to be operational.
It would be interesting to know what gear the truck was in when it came to rest.
Own Account Driver:
It would be interesting to know what gear the truck was in when it came to rest.
That’s more like the type of interesting question that needs asking.In addition to the state of all the brake linings regards signs of heating or not.
Whether it’s the Sowerby Bridge example or this one there was no exhaust brake on the old Clydesdale I drove and if it did runaway down the old Reigate Hill I’d have hoped the engine would have had more than a few con rods sticking out of the block at the bottom.
The last two trucks I drove both had the exhaust brake blanked off, I just drove accordingly as we all did before they were a general fitment. So I assume that this Scania had drum brakes fitted all round then and not discs, I’m not familiar with the make but my only experience of automatic adjusters is that they only started working when the brake was well out of adjustment. My 3000 series Foden needed manual adjustment virtually from new as the autos just didn’t seem to ‘kick in’ until the brakes were getting poor, not ideal in the Peak District!
Pete.
Carryfast:
Whether it’s the Sowerby Bridge example or this one there was no exhaust brake on the old Clydesdale I drove and if it did runaway down the old Reigate Hill I’d have hoped the engine would have had more than a few con rods sticking out of the block at the bottom.
The driver of the Sowerby Bridge truck was apparently inexperienced with laden HGV’s as well, only ever driven the Police horsebox it seems.
Pete.