First Bump!

My two penneth would be if the setup of a roundabout, when going straight on, means you’re going to intrude into the inside lane you really need to cut in enough in advance to close the lane down to traffic. If you leave a gap somewhere that a car can get through you can guarantee someone will be through it whilst you’re looking in the other mirror.

Driving large vehicles you get used to forward planning up to half a mile ahead, depending on visibility, and tend to forget a lot of car drivers aren’t planning any further ahead than 5 ft in front of their bonnet.

Carryfast:

Rjan:
is itself an enticement to proceed on the inside for car drivers who have conceived it as having two lanes and have received no signal of the OP’s intentions).

It’s a simple rule you just don’t drive a car into an inevitably closing gap on the offside of an artic through a roundabout regardless of whether the driver has tried to block the move or not.Also bearing in mind at that point the truck will probably ( correctly ) be signalling left to exit the roundabout as the trailer cuts across the roundabout to the right.

Don’t talk wet, there is no such rule. If the truck driver misjudged on the approach by failing to take both approach lanes, but then drove out and took both lanes on the roundabout itself while it was empty, then I’d say the car driver was to blame if he came steaming round and collided with the rear tractor unit under the trailer (or the side skirts). That is, the car would never get between the trailer wheels and the inner kerb, but would have collided somewhere in the wedge-shaped area created by the tractor starting in the left lane but taking an inside line through the roundabout.

But where the truck driver has followed a two-lane model, but then realises he needs to cut across the inside at the last moment, the onus is on the truck driver to move slowly or stop if necessary to let the inside lane clear.

On larger roundabouts the gap does not inevitably close, because the truck can remain entirely in its own lane, and on much smaller roundabouts the truck would not even attempt to keep out of the inside lane. In marginal cases like the OPs, the truck driver has to make a decision and stick with it (or take care to change modes), not take the ‘large roundabout’ approach but expect cars to stay clear of him just in case he finds its too small and needs to cut in.

ThrustMaster:

MickyB666:
Sequence of events…
Approached a roundabout in left hand lane to take second exit (straight ahead).
Checked mirrors as approaching - no vehicles in RH lane.

Well there’s your problem right there!

Always, always, always straddle both lanes to prevent cars/vans from getting up alongside you.

Yes, my approach too. If they have room to squeeze in ,theyll do it, only to find themselves in that position. However, theres no way in this world that you are to blame…

Rjan:
I’m not saying you didn’t look at all, only that you’ve allocated your attention in the wrong proportions. My intuition is that I wouldn’t have checked my n/s at all until I was coming out of the cut on the o/s - and you’ve barely started that in the photos.

My monitoring of the n/s would be done at the same time as it was cutting into the n/s when first entering the roundabout, then coming out of that I’d set up a line for the tractor to track the outside of the carriageway (or the lane) looking out the front window toward the n/s to plan that, then my eyes would come over to the o/s mirror for the cut-in on that side. I don’t sense there’d be anything interesting in the n/s mirror until you’re coming out of the o/s cut.

There shouldn’t be as much as a few seconds gap. If you have to look away from the o/s while you’re cutting in, you should be going slowly, and it should be a gap of milliseconds, just enough to turn your head and ■■■■■■ a glance elsewhere.

If you’re doing an appropriate speed yourself, then it shouldn’t be physically possible for a car to get alongside you on your o/s while you’re cutting in without you seeing some part of their approach

The slower you’re going the greater the speed differential between the truck and overtaking car.Which obviously leaves less time to notice that the car has refused to do as expected in giving way,then reacting to the situation and stopping.Realistically the idea of putting the onus on the truck driver to avoid a side swipe situation involving cars overtaking trucks through roundabouts is a joke that contradicts rule 187 of the highway code.A similar analogy would be noticing the front of a truck coming round a hairpin bend on a mountain road as you’re approaching it in the opposite direction.Here’s a clue it’s a good idea at that point to stop and don’t even think about entering the corner because you know that there won’t be any road space for you to use when you get there.Just as in the case of trying to go alongside a truck through a roundabout.The result being a collision caused by driving into a foreseeable obstruction across the road. :unamused:

Rjan:

Carryfast:
It’s a simple rule you just don’t drive a car into an inevitably closing gap on the offside of an artic through a roundabout regardless of whether the driver has tried to block the move or not.Also bearing in mind at that point the truck will probably ( correctly ) be signalling left to exit the roundabout as the trailer cuts across the roundabout to the right.

Don’t talk wet, there is no such rule.

Great feel free to interpret rule 187 as meaning anything other than that. :open_mouth: :laughing:

Carryfast:
The slower you’re going the greater the speed differential between the truck and overtaking car.Which obviously leaves less time to notice that the car has refused to do as expected in giving way,then reacting to the situation and stopping.

Yes, but another counterpart effect to the truck itself going much slower, is that it changes position and cuts in much slower.

Of course, you can always fail to see a car that hits you in a way that you did nothing to cause. If you’re watching your o/s, and a car flies out of a junction on the n/s into the side of you, you’ll probably fail to see him coming and fail to see the collision, but there’s no question who is at fault for that. You could be completely stationary, and if a car hits you then generally it’s his mistake - you can’t have constant 360 degree vision.

In the OP’s case, the car has collided in an area that the OP should have been watching very closely indeed - even if the car hit him and the OP was faultless (because the car mis-steered and went into the trailer without being pinched, for example), he should have seen the car approach, because with the tractor angled to the o/s he’ll have had a full view of his o/s and beyond in his mirror. But that’s not the narrative that the OP has given - he says he saw nothing whatsoever of a car that clearly has been pinched between the trailer and the kerb.

He’s said the car appeared out of nowhere, and at that place at that time, it’s just not my experience that it can happen. It’s like guys who say they turned a corner and the tree they hit appeared out of nowhere - it asserts something that is not within normal experience (and even if the tree fell in the wind at that very moment, you’d see it happen even if you had no time to react). I’ve had cars move into the cut-in area and cause me a lot of hassle, to the point where I’ve even thought I might hit them because of my speed and course, but I’ve never not seen them.

Realistically the idea of putting the onus on the truck driver to avoid a side swipe situation involving cars overtaking trucks through roundabouts is a joke that contradicts rule 187 of the highway code.

I’m afraid the onus is very much on truck drivers to avoid side swipes in cases where the trailer is cutting in. The normal method of doing that is to obstruct entry to the lane so that the traffic does not come alongside in the first place. Once traffic has come alongside, it’s the drivers duty to give way and stop if necessary.

Obviously, there are conceivably cases where other traffic is behaving so aggressively like a chariot race that the truck is really faultless in a collision, but that’s the exception not the rule.

A similar analogy would be noticing the front of a truck coming round a hairpin bend on a mountain road as you’re approaching it in the opposite direction.Here’s a clue it’s a good idea at that point to stop and don’t even think about entering the corner because you know that there won’t be any road space for you to use when you get there.Just as in the case of trying to go alongside a truck through a roundabout.The result being a collision caused by driving into a foreseeable obstruction across the road. :unamused:

I had this analogy in mind myself, but came to the opposite conclusion. If a truck has already come around a right-hand hairpin bend and is starting to straighten up but the trailer is still dragging across the opposite lane, and a car comes steaming along and crashes into it, the car can’t avail himself of saying “the truck was in my lane” - in some circumstances, a truck is entitled to cross lanes and effectively force traffic in those lanes (whether they are adjacent or oncoming lanes) to stop.

But if the truck and car meet at the bend at roughly the same time, the truck (which intends to take the whole carriageway) has to give way to the car - he can’t just say “the car saw me coming, he needed to stop and give me plenty of room” or “he should have known the room I need to manoeuvre”. It’s not until the truck actually begins to cross the white line (which must not occur until the truck driver knows it to be safe and that drivers will have time to react to it), that other traffic can be expected to see what is happening and stop. In difficult situations with aggressive traffic, the truck driver simply has to crawl at snail’s pace over the white line, slowly narrowing the available space until someone loses their nerve - he can’t just swing across and crash and say “they should have seen me coming”.

You cannot assume that car drivers know what a truck is going to do before it does it - that’s the nub of it. A car driver can be expected to see that a truck has partly blocked a lane (leaving a slither of lane, which may become even narrower in the following moments), and not to try and squeeze through. But they can’t be expected to predict that a truck will partly or wholly block a lane, whilst the truck is still proceeding quite normally within its own lane.

Although it is obviously very annoying and natural to feel that the car has put themselves into this position, Rjan’s logic is absolutely airtight. If I went out driving tomorrow and had this happen to me, my instinct would be to focus on how I could improve my defensive driving skills.

I’m not immune from misjudgments and mistakes, and neither is any other driver. I think this could be a learning experience for anybody.

Javiatrix:
Although it is obviously very annoying and natural to feel that the car has put themselves into this position, Rjan’s logic is absolutely airtight. If I went out driving tomorrow and had this happen to me, my instinct would be to focus on how I could improve my defensive driving skills.

I’m not immune from misjudgments and mistakes, and neither is any other driver. I think this could be a learning experience for anybody.

Defensive driving is a two way thing.If only one side of the potential collision is using it,as in this case,you’ll just end up in the situation of the car driving into the side of the trailer by trying to occupy a piece of non existent road space.Bearing in mind that the trailer is following a fixed line which will take out the road space that the car driver is trying to use.

Rjan:
…There shouldn’t be as much as a few seconds gap. If you have to look away from the o/s while you’re cutting in, you should be going slowly, and it should be a gap of milliseconds, just enough to turn your head and ■■■■■■ a glance elsewhere.

I used the term ‘a few seconds’ as an analogy to express a really short period of time, the actual time between mirror checks would of been much less than this, I was travelling slowly.

I checked my mirrors, on the approach to and before entering the roundabout and then again just after passing the last exit - that was the way I was taught, I check the NS mirror to keep an eye on any potential danger on that side - vehicles over shooting the junction, pedestrians etc etc again this is the way that I was taught, I also look in the direction of travel because I believe that looking were you are going is quite important (I didn’t need to be taught that).

So taking on board the comments and the lessons I have learned, from now on I will focus more directly on when I check my mirrors and the proportion of time I allocate to each view NS, OS and direction of travel, putting more emphasis on where I failed in this instance, the ‘pinch point’ observation, I maintain my belief that his speed played a role in the collision - if not I would of seen him.

This is what I think happened… the car was behind me to begin with, the driver got impatient because I was going slowly and decided to whizz around me driving into a gap that was already closing and putting himself into a position were a collision was inevitable.

You are not at fault, 100%

but you should have called the Police straight away

He may have been on drugs or using a mobile or even a banned driver

Which happen to me in my car years a go, he had dodgy number plates,

Cost me thousands and my no claims,

Did you take his or her mug shot ?

Carryfast:

Javiatrix:
Although it is obviously very annoying and natural to feel that the car has put themselves into this position, Rjan’s logic is absolutely airtight. If I went out driving tomorrow and had this happen to me, my instinct would be to focus on how I could improve my defensive driving skills.

I’m not immune from misjudgments and mistakes, and neither is any other driver. I think this could be a learning experience for anybody.

Defensive driving is a two way thing.If only one side of the potential collision is using it,as in this case,you’ll just end up in the situation of the car driving into the side of the trailer by trying to occupy a piece of non existent road space.Bearing in mind that the trailer is following a fixed line which will take out the road space that the car driver is trying to use.

It is a two way thing, but the defensive driving of others is outside of your control, so the only thing you can change is your own manner of driving. That’s how I would look at it.

welshgooner:
You are not at fault, 100%

but you should have called the Police straight away

He may have been on drugs or using a mobile or even a banned driver

Which happen to me in my car years a go, he had dodgy number plates,

Cost me thousands and my no claims,

Did you take his or her mug shot ?

The police attended about 30 mins after the collision, breathalysed us both (both negative) asked what happened took names and other details, asked if there was any injuries (both said no injuries) gave us his contact details, said he was satisfied and we could both drive on.

MickyB666:
This is what I think happened… the car was behind me to begin with, the driver got impatient because I was going slowly and decided to whizz around me driving into a gap that was already closing and putting himself into a position were a collision was inevitable.

My concluding remarks are simply that it’s not a familiar situation - I don’t find that traffic gets into those places at those times without being seen.

There is your proposed explanation that the driver has been going too briskly, he’s shot into an already narrow gap which then closed on him (which he hasn’t expected but you’ve done only at a modest, careful pace). He did all this so fast you didn’t see him until after contact.

Well, that explains his position, but not how you failed to see it happen. Even cars moving much faster than the norm do not become invisible - if anything their speed draws attention and makes them much easier to spot even in peripheral vision, and you should have been watching your o/s trailer wheels and background closely at that point (perhaps not watching continuously, but still closely).

The alternative is that you made an error of assessment on the approach, leading to a plan to use the outer of two lanes. In keeping with the plan, you’ve tracked the outside of the lane (which imposes a mental workload observing the n/s, if it has to be done accurately). This is also a positional signal to other traffic - if you’re going very wide as if following an outer lane, they’ll assume you are following an outer lane.

At some point following the outer carriageway, as the tractor has swung back to the right, you’ve made an o/s mirror check and seen nothing (a quick o/s check is probably sufficient if you intend to stay within your lane, and might have missed any vehicles in the background). Then, you’ve had to cut in, and because it wasn’t in your plan to do that you either haven’t looked at all (i.e. you’ve cut in without intending to, while you’re busy tracking and observing the n/s), or you’ve realised you’re going to cut in but in trying to keep track of the n/s you’ve made an inadequate o/s observation and haven’t fully appreciated what is now a ‘give-way’ situation in cutting across another open lane.

The car has then entered the jaws and the collision has occurred. The car perhaps approached briskly but not improperly - he’s just entered the open lane that’s appeared to be there, and you’ve then closed the lane without warning and without treating it as a give way.

If I have to decide whether the other driver was driving his car so fast he couldn’t be seen, or whether you’ve made a modest mistake in planning which has impaired your observation in a difficult situation, I’m inclined to think the latter fits your account more closely.

I wondered how this had gone to 3 pages, and now I know! :open_mouth:

Micky, yes I think defensing driving could have avoided the incident, and you may have been able to get a bit further over on the roundabout. But in the grand scheme of things it’s a non event and I think the car driver caused the issue. He’s not going to be so happy when the insurance company decide it’s a 50/50 (knock for knock) accident! :laughing: As for you, just learn from it and move on mate…

Evil8Beezle:
I wondered how this had gone to 3 pages, and now I know! :open_mouth:

Micky, yes I think defensing driving could have avoided the incident, and you may have been able to get a bit further over on the roundabout. But in the grand scheme of things it’s a non event and I think the car driver caused the issue. He’s not going to be so happy when the insurance company decide it’s a 50/50 (knock for knock) accident! :laughing: As for you, just learn from it and move on mate…

Yep for such a minor bump I think this one has been done to death now.

I have already learned from it and moved on - the rest will be up to the insurance to deal with.

Thanks for all the comments.

Let us know the outcome though.

Evil8Beezle:
I wondered how this had gone to 3 pages, and now I know! :open_mouth:

Curryfart got his hands on it.