That’s a perfect video. We had to be doing 50kph by the end of the tunnel, and then 20kph by the 20 speed board that you see just before the curve. If you nod off or lose concentration, then it’s game over. There is no automatic braking system installed on London Tramlink.
I feel sorry for my former colleague as we’ve all suffered a drowsy moment, especially on the early shift, and the disasterous consequences that it can entail.
merc0447:
Driver fell asleep according to that article?
Do these trams not have the same dead man button system you get on trains?
A dead man will fix the stop or go situation of sleeping driver but it won’t fix the issue of a driver who is alert enough to keep going but not alert enough to control its speed.It seems obvious that the things should be speed limited to 30 mph max.
Indeed.
The system is called DSD drivers safety device or DVD drivers vigilance device. On the big railway it will sound an alarm in the cab approximately every 3 minutes if the system detects no alteration in the trains controls or speed within that time. When it goes off, the driver has to acknowledge it by lifting his foot momentarily from a pedal before pushing it back down again, if he fails to do so within 3 seconds, the brakes are automatically applied and cannot be overridden until the train has come to a complete stand.
That’s all well and good but I doubt such a system would have done any good in this situation.
Yes, that’s a sharp bend at the bottom of that hill there. The fact the rails would have been greasy with the pouring rain probably didn’t help the braking process either.
Looking at this photo, I’d say the tram must have been in trouble long before it even got to the bend. It doesn’t look to me like it came of the tracks at this point, at 50+ mph.
knight2:
Looking at the overhead photos that is a really sharp bend for a tram. Condolences to all involved.
Trams are designed to be able to negotiate tighter curves than regular trains, obviously taken at the appropriate speed. It is quite normal to find curves of that radius on tram networks, particularly on street-running sections.
bubsy06:
I agree, it surely would have rolled a few more times or slid a hell of alot more further, looks like it was just pushed over when it was stationary.
The other thing is that the tram was travelling from the right of the photo to the left and should have taken the left-hand curve (you can check this against the YouTube video link I posted earlier) and so again, I just wouldn’t have expected it to have ended up where it did if it was a high-speed derailment on that curve. The track is arrow-straight right up to that curve.
my nephew lives near Croydon and I was visiting one day and we went shopping in Croydon,those bloody trams were hairing past us through a pedestrianised section of the town[any others who have been will know what I mean]I said to my nephew there will be an accident one day cos they go too fast,i know it was out of the town near Sandilands but famous last words,apparently witnesses said the operator was going too fast into a bend,rip to the victims
That’s a perfect video. We had to be doing 50kph by the end of the tunnel, and then 20kph by the 20 speed board that you see just before the curve. If you nod off or lose concentration, then it’s game over. There is no automatic braking system installed on London Tramlink.
I feel sorry for my former colleague as we’ve all suffered a drowsy moment, especially on the early shift, and the disasterous consequences that it can entail.
bubsy06:
I agree, it surely would have rolled a few more times or slid a hell of alot more further, looks like it was just pushed over when it was stationary.
The other thing is that the tram was travelling from the right of the photo to the left and should have taken the left-hand curve (you can check this against the YouTube video link I posted earlier) and so again, I just wouldn’t have expected it to have ended up where it did if it was a high-speed derailment on that curve. The track is arrow-straight right up to that curve.
What photo are you talking about Harry, is it the overhead one that you posted ? Because if it is that one, what you have just written above is incorrect
truckman020:
my nephew lives near Croydon and I was visiting one day and we went shopping in Croydon,those bloody trams were hairing past us through a pedestrianised section of the town[any others who have been will know what I mean]I said to my nephew there will be an accident one day cos they go too fast,i know it was out of the town near Sandilands but famous last words,apparently witnesses said the operator was going too fast into a bend,rip to the victims
Don’t go to Holland or Belgium then if tram speeds worry you
Harry Monk:
Looking at this photo, I’d say the tram must have been in trouble long before it even got to the bend. It doesn’t look to me like it came of the tracks at this point, at 50+ mph.
The tram was coming down the right hand track from the top of the picture {from Addington]as we look at it heading round the bend to the right {towards Croydon}. It was on the right hand track as you look at it and overturned onto the other track
Harry Monk:
Looking at this photo, I’d say the tram must have been in trouble long before it even got to the bend. It doesn’t look to me like it came of the tracks at this point, at 50+ mph.
The tram was coming down the right hand track from the top of the picture {from Addington]as we look at it heading round the bend to the right {towards Croydon}. It was on the right hand track as you look at it and overturned onto the other track
All that weight at 50mph+ on an almost 90degree corner and it ends up in that position■■? No chance.
Harry Monk:
Looking at this photo, I’d say the tram must have been in trouble long before it even got to the bend. It doesn’t look to me like it came of the tracks at this point, at 50+ mph.
The tram was coming down the right hand track from the top of the picture {from Addington]as we look at it heading round the bend to the right {towards Croydon}. It was on the right hand track as you look at it and overturned onto the other track
All that weight at 50mph+ on an almost 90degree corner and it ends up in that position■■? No chance.
Well that’s how it did end up. The track running from the right and going to the bottom of the picture is the Elmers End/Beckenham line
merc0447:
Driver fell asleep according to that article?
Do these trams not have the same dead man button system you get on trains?
A dead man will fix the stop or go situation of sleeping driver but it won’t fix the issue of a driver who is alert enough to keep going but not alert enough to control its speed.It seems obvious that the things should be speed limited to 30 mph max.
Indeed.
The system is called DSD drivers safety device or DVD drivers vigilance device. On the big railway it will sound an alarm in the cab approximately every 3 minutes if the system detects no alteration in the trains controls or speed within that time. When it goes off, the driver has to acknowledge it by lifting his foot momentarily from a pedal before pushing it back down again, if he fails to do so within 3 seconds, the brakes are automatically applied and cannot be overridden until the train has come to a complete stand.
That’s all well and good but I doubt such a system would have done any good in this situation.
one wonders why there is no similar system to the big railway where a permanent speed restiction of such magnitude triggers an alarm in the cab and through TPWS loops automaticly applys the brakes in the event of an overspeed on the aproach to said speed restriction ?
The tunnel would be to the top of the pic, and in the video, at 14:00 you see it come out of the tunnel not very fast, and then practically slow down to walking pace to negotiate that corner.
I’m surprised that there is no talk of a Dead Man’s Switch ever having been on these trams! Perhaps though, it did indeed have one, but when it tried to cut in - the pouring rain had it skidding on the rails, and then trying to go around that right-angled corner at around 45mph like a “Tron” Bike. The old steam engines used to wheelslip a lot too.
merc0447:
Driver fell asleep according to that article?
Do these trams not have the same dead man button system you get on trains?
A dead man will fix the stop or go situation of sleeping driver but it won’t fix the issue of a driver who is alert enough to keep going but not alert enough to control its speed.It seems obvious that the things should be speed limited to 30 mph max.
Indeed.
The system is called DSD drivers safety device or DVD drivers vigilance device. On the big railway it will sound an alarm in the cab approximately every 3 minutes if the system detects no alteration in the trains controls or speed within that time. When it goes off, the driver has to acknowledge it by lifting his foot momentarily from a pedal before pushing it back down again, if he fails to do so within 3 seconds, the brakes are automatically applied and cannot be overridden until the train has come to a complete stand.
That’s all well and good but I doubt such a system would have done any good in this situation.
one wonders why there is no similar system to the big railway where a permanent speed restiction of such magnitude triggers an alarm in the cab and through TPWS loops automaticly applys the brakes in the event of an overspeed on the aproach to said speed restriction ?
Well apparently unlike heavy rail systems , trams are driven on what is termed as ‘line of sight driving’, abit like a bus I spose but even a bus driver will have signs on the road warning him of a bend or count down markers etc as a reminder for maybe a temporary loss of situational awareness .
I agree though, I bet they’ll be something along the lines of TPWS or the like to intervene against an over speed event after this F-up!!
truckman020:
my nephew lives near Croydon and I was visiting one day and we went shopping in Croydon,those bloody trams were hairing past us through a pedestrianised section of the town[any others who have been will know what I mean]I said to my nephew there will be an accident one day cos they go too fast,i know it was out of the town near Sandilands but famous last words,apparently witnesses said the operator was going too fast into a bend,rip to the victims
I used to live in Croydon and have been back since many times since. The trams have a bell that rings when it runs through the streets and there are yellow markers on the road that tell you where the tram will be. It’s not that difficult to avoid them and they move slowly.
