Winseer:
The EU will soon be Germany on it’s own. There is a limit to their power - it lacks military content. Germany’s best hope for itself is to become more like Switzerland. It’s military ambitions are prevented by the checks and balances of NATO and foreign-run forces bases continuing to be present.
If we do Brexit, Frexit follows - and then there’s only Germany lending money out to all those basket case economies calling itself the rest of the EU. Soon after, those “loans” will end up being “donations”, and the German banking system collapses, it’s former investors happy that there is now the Der Grosse Insel back in play again - to move their cash to.
Now me… I’d much rather hear Britain being referred to as “The Big Island” rather than bloody “Treasure Island” is it has been these past couple of decades in particular! 
Firstly it’s only ‘assuming’ first Brexit and then probably Frexit depending on the FN vote that Germany would find itself in a very sticky situation economically.None of which is guaranteed.
However only the most naive would think that the banking establishment panic and desperation isn’t all based on their fear of just that ‘possibility’.Which proves the scam that we were taken into by Heath and the motivation behind it.IE the banks bet on Germany after WW2 and we’ve been paying for it ever since.In addition to handing over the sovereignty of the country to Communists masquerading as ‘Democrats’ in the EU government.
The main fear here seems to be immigration, specifically Muslim immigration. If you look on my posts you’ll see my views on halal meat to which I could add my belief that Muslims are staging a takeover by stealth.
Having said that I find it hard to believe the Brexit supporters are naïve enough to think an EU exit would make much if any difference to our immigration. Big business relies on it and if you think Boris, Chris etc will put their mates multi million pound salaries at risk, think again! if immigration is your fear then surely it’s better to argue sitting around the table than shouting through a window hoping you’ll be taken notice of?
Carryfast, you write in a very erudite way and are obviously a well educated man but I feel you let your right wing dogma dominate all you have to say rather than reasoned debate. I’m sure when you fly off on hols you must pre-book your seat to be as close to the right wing as possible 
Munchkin:
The main fear here seems to be immigration, specifically Muslim immigration. If you look on my posts you’ll see my views on halal meat to which I could add my belief that Muslims are staging a takeover by stealth.
Having said that I find it hard to believe the Brexit supporters are naïve enough to think an EU exit would make much if any difference to our immigration. Big business relies on it and if you think Boris, Chris etc will put their mates multi million pound salaries at risk, think again! if immigration is your fear then surely it’s better to argue sitting around the table than shouting through a window hoping you’ll be taken notice of?
Carryfast, you write in a very erudite way and are obviously a well educated man but I feel you let your right wing dogma dominate all you have to say rather than reasoned debate. I’m sure when you fly off on hols you must pre-book your seat to be as close to the right wing as possible
That would obviously depend on your definition of ‘left’.Let’s just say that the logical conclusion of Socialism,in the form of the Soviet Union and Red China,wasn’t/isn’t exactly the workers’ paradise that people like Altieri Spinelli and his modern day comrades would sell it as. 
How do ‘we argue round a table’ concerning an institution which is based from the outset and founded on Socialist Soviet thinking.Including obviously free movement between Europe and Asia in the form of Turkey.In addition to Merkel and her Socialist comrades having already so far invited at least a 1 million,probably many more,Islamic demographic into Europe with more to follow.With the obvious aim of changing the European demographic to one which the Socialists see as being more ‘amenable’ to their agenda.Brexit would obviously at least provide us with the ability to say no to the planned EU forced further distribution of that potentially hostile demographic.Among providing us with the powers of deportation that the EU doesn’t allow under free movement and human rights legislation.
Make no mistake this is an argument between defence of the Nation State v Socialist Soviet infiltration and takeover.It will be much easier to fight that within our own borders than to open the argument up to a combined united UK/European Socialist force which stamps out local democracy in the form of replacing the Nation State with EU Soviet style Federal governmet.
Which is why the Socialists are so keen on keeping Spinelli’s idea of an EUSSR going.
Haha, just because my tendencies lie left of centre you’ve decided to extrapolate that to Soviet Russia and China, brilliant! [emoji23] . I’ll refrain from asking which washing powder you use to get your hood so white or the most long lasting accelerant for a wooden cross.
Bit of a conundrum that extreme right and left seem to end in the same result and the working man benefits from neither.
I look back on my youth in the 60s and 70s and see what a mess we were in then as a small country whose captive markets had disappeared with Empire. Of course during the later 70s and beyond is when we really started to integrate with Europe. Not all plain sailing but we have an economy people want to come to and bring their skills and ambitions with them.
I’ve no ambition to see the UK back in those dark days of declining markets and uncertainty. For the past 40 years generally speaking if we’ve been prepared to put a bit of effort in we’ve done OK and I want that to continue.
Munchkin:
Haha, just because my tendencies lie left of centre you’ve decided to extrapolate that to Soviet Russia and China, brilliant! [emoji23] . I’ll refrain from asking which washing powder you use to get your hood so white or the most long lasting accelerant for a wooden cross.
Bit of a conundrum that extreme right and left seem to end in the same result and the working man benefits from neither.
I look back on my youth in the 60s and 70s and see what a mess we were in then as a small country whose captive markets had disappeared with Empire. Of course during the later 70s and beyond is when we really started to integrate with Europe. Not all plain sailing but we have an economy people want to come to and bring their skills and ambitions with them.
I’ve no ambition to see the UK back in those dark days of declining markets and uncertainty. For the past 40 years generally speaking if we’ve been prepared to put a bit of effort in we’ve done OK and I want that to continue.
As I said feel free to define left.
You obviously grew up in a different world to the one I knew in the 1960’s and early 70’s v post 1973.
You’ve obviously selectively forgot the bits like a pound being worth a pound as opposed to Europhiles like Callaghan and Thatcher crashing the economy with prices going through the roof and wages going the other way with resulting unemployment to match.Or the miners winning out in the better stronger union environment of the early 1970’s v losing in 1984.Or the transfer of jobs from the domestic economy to Europe.While the figures related to national debt,economic growth and value of the pound suggest that your memory is about as good as the idea that the EU isn’t just another attempt to build another Soviet Union in western Europe.Just as its zb Commy founder Altieri Spinelli intended.Although it’s no surprise in that case that your definition of left seems to be an economy that is mainly attractive to immigrants.Thereby hopefully artificially adding to the Socialist demographic.
I assumed you realised I was nodding in the direction of the right.
In hindsight doesn’t it seem likely those wise old union leaders knew the game was up for coal and went for the max for their members for as long as they could? Remember shipbuilding was screwed by then and that had Frankie Abbot to do with the EU, nor did the demise of coal.
Remember we’re only an island physically not fiscally and world trade is no respecter of either!
Oh those sunny summers on the Med…Hang on, we couldn’t afford that!
Touring UK in the car then…Hmm, couldn’t afford a car either.
Pound worth a pound…be lucky if it’s worth a Euro by August.
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By the way how did this end up in Bully’s not the drivers forum it WS in on Fri ?
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Munchkin:
I assumed you realised I was nodding in the direction of the right.
In hindsight doesn’t it seem likely those wise old union leaders knew the game was up for coal and went for the max for their members for as long as they could? Remember shipbuilding was screwed by then and that had Frankie Abbot to do with the EU, nor did the demise of coal.
Remember we’re only an island physically not fiscally and world trade is no respecter of either!
Oh those sunny summers on the Med…Hang on, we couldn’t afford that!
Touring UK in the car then…Hmm, couldn’t afford a car either.
Pound worth a pound…be lucky if it’s worth a Euro by August.
As I said define left,or right.Especially in the sense of anti EU Labour in the form of Shore and Benn.As opposed to Europhile Conservative Heath and Thatcher.Bearing in mind the EU’s Communist foundation in the form of people like Altieri Spinelli and people like Juncker etc to date.
I was referring to the ‘workers rights’ of secondary action and higher employment environment of the early 1970’s which won it for the miners among others.
As for European holidays before 1973 in the real world. 
youtube.com/watch?v=d5-FZgOIqko
Oh look after a prosperous time through the 1960’s and early 1970’s they went bust later in the 1970’s.Not much of an advert for EEC/EU membership.
As for a pound worth a Euro.It’s almost that now unlike the almost 3 Swiss Francs it worth before we joined the scam.