Interesting thoughts gentlemen. Thanks for replying to my questions.
I’ve a bit of driving to do so apologies for a short response at the moment.
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Buzzer:
Franglais:
So we all know, I’m asking questions but won’t be marking your answers as I don’t even pretend to have any answers! [WHITE SMILING FACE]Franglaise, be afraid, be very afraid, WHITE smiling faces, Spardo will have his book out again, looking up racism. Harvey
HRS:
Buzzer:
Franglais:
So we all know, I’m asking questions but won’t be marking your answers as I don’t even pretend to have any answers! [WHITE SMILING FACE]Franglaise, be afraid, be very afraid, WHITE smiling faces, Spardo will have his book out again, looking up racism. Harvey
Whoops!
It’s a smiley off the phone!
I weren’t saying owt nasty!
Honest!
[WHITE SMILING FACE]
Just out another 'un up…
Risky ?
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HRS:
Franglaise, be afraid, be very afraid, WHITE smiling faces, Spardo will have his book out again, looking up racism. Harvey
Steady on Harvey, Buzzer will have his sniding scale out in a minute. 
But I don’t have to look up racism, I know what that is, but you need to look up sexism. Why do you keep changing Franglais’ ■■■? 
Franglais:
It’s a smiley off the phone!
I weren’t saying owt nasty!Honest!
[WHITE SMILING FACE]
I knew what you meant. 
And I don’t even have a fancy phone. 
Looks to me like Cav has written down a good critique of problems with both UK domestic politics and Globalisation.
I can’t argue with much of his description of under investment in industry here, and short term fixes from politicians looking at the next by-election.
International companies taking advantage of every loophole in existence and financial wizz kids cleverly making money in the short term but making nothing tangible in the long term.
(I’ve only got a phone to play with here, so I’m having trouble putting links up) (excuse me please)
Muckles put up a link in another thread about Jean Claude Juncker and the way Luxembourg has become a low tax home to many companies. This is a prime example of what Cav mentions about companies not paying their dues in the countries they operate in.
Some might say Juncker was being “patriotic” in getting the best deal possible for his country whilst he was it’s Prime Minister? If C.F. wants to say “stinks” at the point Juncker was put in the highest levels of the EU commission I’d agree.
But the EU is getting it’s house in order slowly. There are new laws about “hybrid taxes” to stop the likes of Amazon, getting away with paying the legal but immorally low levels of tax they currently do?
Seems to me that although the EU is seemingly slow with all this it is at least heading the right way. It recognises that Luxembourg has gained an unfair advantage with it’s tax regime. And it also seems to me that, slow as it is, this is a good use for the EU. It can influence behaviour across national borders. It can stop it’s members being tax havens.
What about the point of locally produced components being used in, say cars?
I think it’s already true that Japanese cars produced in EU will have many different components that those made in Japan? But what of extending this to a national level? Let’s say we have a mega gearbox plant in the UK, an engine plant in France and a body panel plant in Germany? If we started specifying that only local components could be used we’d have three smaller gearbox plants, 3 smaller engine shops etc… And we all know about economies of scale. The vehicles would cost more, and so be less competitively priced for export, and there would be no overall increase in jobs. More engine and body jobs, but less gearbox workers.
You’re pointing to some real issues Cav, but leaving the EU isn’t about to cure any of them that I can see?
And that is the same with Trump. I’d agree that he seems to be a particularly nasty individual, but let’s hold our noses and look at what he says?
Broadly he’s saying politics in the US is in a bad place.
Broadly he spoke the truth in that aspect. (IMHO)
He said he was the solution to all America’s woes. I really don’t think he is.
Seeing a problem isn’t the same as seeing or effecting a cure.
Buzzer says we can keep out foreign foods at low prices by taxing them? They would make subsidies for UK farmers unnecessary.
Lots of consequences to that. Higher food costs leads to higher wage demands and inflation. (Assuming there isn’t rioting as with the poll tax!). If we tax other countries goods they will put taxes on the goods we sell them. At the least, lower exports and a worsening balance of payments.
I admire Buzzer and his home grown produce. Good food that also keeps you fit and grounded. Great. But how many families holding down two or more jobs have the time for this? And how many have homes with more than a window box? Listening to GQT there are queues years long for allotments. It is aspirational but it isn’t going to feed the country.
Post Brexit who will be our new trading partners? Pointless leaving if stay in the same deals isn’t it?
What will they want in return if we trade more favourably than on WTO rules?
The US has cheaper food apparently and maybe we could buy theirs? But is their welfare for animals as high as ours? Are their rules about genetics modifications, antibiotics, housing of beasts, and hygiene as good as the EU standards? (Stories of abuses here as well of course, but law breakers exist everywhere)
And to buy their food we’d have to sell goods to them. We need to produce goods to their standards. Standards in which we have zero say. To sell financial services there we’d need to obey their fiscal laws and be subject to US contract. And where would any disputes be held.?
I know London is favoured as a divorce court by many of the rich. They make marriage contracts specifying this don’t they? When a UK bank makesa deal with a US corp will they agree to London? Or chose another jurisdiction? Bet I know the answer to that.
I reckon we’re better off sticking in this club where we pay out fees, begrudgingly maybe, but have a real say in the rules, and can do better than as a junior partner to Trumps USA or as an island trading under WTO rules.
We’ve got a lot going for us, and I’d we take a more realistic view, we can get somwhere.I’m with Cav we need to pay more taxes to get better hospitals and schools etc. We need to stop listening to false promises, no matter how sweet they are. Politicians promising more for less have knocked out country back already. I am not listening to those who claim an imaginary bright future outside the EU. That’s just more ■■■■ from the same ■■■■■■■■ who lie about domestic politics.
We’ve seen their lies on the national stage, why believe their lies about the international world?
Oh, God…
Did I go off on one?
I was trying to be calm.
Sorry.
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Franglais:
Oh, God…
Did I go off on one?
I was trying to be calm.
Sorry.
All true though, so need for apologies.
Franglais:
Looks to me like Cav has written down a good critique of problems with both UK domestic politics and Globalisation.
I can’t argue with much of his description of under investment in industry here, and short term fixes from politicians looking at the next by-election.
International companies taking advantage of every loophole in existence and financial wizz kids cleverly making money in the short term but making nothing tangible in the long term.
(I’ve only got a phone to play with here, so I’m having trouble putting links up) (excuse me please)
Muckles put up a link in another thread about Jean Claude Juncker and the way Luxembourg has become a low tax home to many companies. This is a prime example of what Cav mentions about companies not paying their dues in the countries they operate in.
Some might say Juncker was being “patriotic” in getting the best deal possible for his country whilst he was it’s Prime Minister? If C.F. wants to say “stinks” at the point Juncker was put in the highest levels of the EU commission I’d agree.
But the EU is getting it’s house in order slowly. There are new laws about “hybrid taxes” to stop the likes of Amazon, getting away with paying the legal but immorally low levels of tax they currently do?
Seems to me that although the EU is seemingly slow with all this it is at least heading the right way. It recognises that Luxembourg has gained an unfair advantage with it’s tax regime. And it also seems to me that, slow as it is, this is a good use for the EU. It can influence behaviour across national borders. It can stop it’s members being tax havens.What about the point of locally produced components being used in, say cars?
I think it’s already true that Japanese cars produced in EU will have many different components that those made in Japan? But what of extending this to a national level? Let’s say we have a mega gearbox plant in the UK, an engine plant in France and a body panel plant in Germany? If we started specifying that only local components could be used we’d have three smaller gearbox plants, 3 smaller engine shops etc… And we all know about economies of scale. The vehicles would cost more, and so be less competitively priced for export, and there would be no overall increase in jobs. More engine and body jobs, but less gearbox workers.You’re pointing to some real issues Cav, but leaving the EU isn’t about to cure any of them that I can see?
And that is the same with Trump. I’d agree that he seems to be a particularly nasty individual, but let’s hold our noses and look at what he says?
Broadly he’s saying politics in the US is in a bad place.
Broadly he spoke the truth in that aspect. (IMHO)
He said he was the solution to all America’s woes. I really don’t think he is.
Seeing a problem isn’t the same as seeing or effecting a cure.Buzzer says we can keep out foreign foods at low prices by taxing them? They would make subsidies for UK farmers unnecessary.
Lots of consequences to that. Higher food costs leads to higher wage demands and inflation. (Assuming there isn’t rioting as with the poll tax!). If we tax other countries goods they will put taxes on the goods we sell them. At the least, lower exports and a worsening balance of payments.
I admire Buzzer and his home grown produce. Good food that also keeps you fit and grounded. Great. But how many families holding down two or more jobs have the time for this? And how many have homes with more than a window box? Listening to GQT there are queues years long for allotments. It is aspirational but it isn’t going to feed the country.Post Brexit who will be our new trading partners? Pointless leaving if stay in the same deals isn’t it?
What will they want in return if we trade more favourably than on WTO rules?
The US has cheaper food apparently and maybe we could buy theirs? But is their welfare for animals as high as ours? Are their rules about genetics modifications, antibiotics, housing of beasts, and hygiene as good as the EU standards? (Stories of abuses here as well of course, but law breakers exist everywhere)
And to buy their food we’d have to sell goods to them. We need to produce goods to their standards. Standards in which we have zero say. To sell financial services there we’d need to obey their fiscal laws and be subject to US contract. And where would any disputes be held.?
I know London is favoured as a divorce court by many of the rich. They make marriage contracts specifying this don’t they? When a UK bank makesa deal with a US corp will they agree to London? Or chose another jurisdiction? Bet I know the answer to that.I reckon we’re better off sticking in this club where we pay out fees, begrudgingly maybe, but have a real say in the rules, and can do better than as a junior partner to Trumps USA or as an island trading under WTO rules.
We’ve got a lot going for us, and I’d we take a more realistic view, we can get somwhere.I’m with Cav we need to pay more taxes to get better hospitals and schools etc. We need to stop listening to false promises, no matter how sweet they are. Politicians promising more for less have knocked out country back already. I am not listening to those who claim an imaginary bright future outside the EU. That’s just more [zb] from the same [zb] who lie about domestic politics.
We’ve seen their lies on the national stage, why believe their lies about the international world?Oh, God…
Did I go off on one?
I was trying to be calm.
Sorry.
Why is it so important for you that Europe’s Nation States and everything that goes with it have to be taken out.Yes Juncker is working in his national interest fine.Which of course gets stopped in its tracks when UK,Italy and France stop their respective contributions gravy train because then Luxembourg will have to pay its own way in the world without others subsidising it.Also how does even your supposed face lifted utopia fix the issue of no EU state having any national democratic accountability over the decisions which affect it.
As for your mega car manufacturing behemoth why when any production stoppage at any one place stops the whole operation.That’s even before the flaws in the Brit gearbox and French engine model. When realistically what’s wrong with just leaving everything as it was with the Germans making BMW’s and Merc’s,us making Jags and Rovers,preferably with a ZF or Getrag gearbox in them 
and the French can keep their zb ugly 4 cylinder front wheel drive bike engined Citroens.While we can all tax the zb out of each other’s imports/exports to stop the situation we’ve got now of some like Germany having a massive trade surplus at the expense of others like the UK up to its neck in debt and resulting austerity in an attempt to deal with its resulting unsustainable massive trade deficit.Also bearing in mind that a ZF gearbox,bought to be put in an otherwise Brit made car,obviously won’t be subject to any import taxes.IE a Confederal Europe it is where we cooperate when it’s in our national interests and go our own way under our own respective electoral control when it isn’t,so what’s not to like.Now awaits the same old bs that Europe’s wars have been fought over National interest.As opposed to whatever bleedin dictatorial Federal zb pile wants to hijack the place next whether it’s the poxy Romans,or Napoleon,or Austro Hungarian Empire,or German Federalism in whatever form,or the Yugoslav or Soviet Federations or now the stinking EU.
Franglais and Spardo,
are you sure you were lorry drivers I have my doubts, your, two clued up on other political rubbish, who gives two monkeys zb ,s, just get on with your life,s you read up too much ,then put it on here…were out thank god, and those that has left us, ■■■■ it a see, you all were quick enough to see the sun shine as you all thought, let them old brits get on with it ,well we did and have. and can not wait until we are back to the BRITSH ISLES again ,stick your frogs and paella. roast beef rules .pdb.
Buzzer:
Now then if we had her dealing with him we would get what we wanted for sure, Buzzer.
MAGGIE IMHO THE BEST PM IN MY LIFETIME
Agreed to the second sentiment, but she would have had more sense than Cameron to sell the pass in the first place. Maggie got her way by sheer determination and force of personality. She wouldn’t have put herself in the position of being hog tied by a referendum which only served to demonstrate to the EU that whatever they agreed to, we would leave anyway.
All they have to do is sit back and wait, the clock is ticking, they know they have to concede nothing. Now I am not a poker player, but I know enough to know that the way the whole leaving thing has been organised is not even worthy of a bunch of amateurs, let alone professional politicians.
Oh, and by the way Buzzer, Maggie was a remainer.
I am not a “word smith” like some on this thread so will keep it simple.
In 1945, “a good year for me” this country was in a mess, debt beyond belief, Housing shortage, so many people out of work as factories stoped war production and the road ahead must have been unbelievable.
The word make do and mend and get by were common, parks turned into allotments, etc etc etc and we all faced an uncertain future, BUT, we not only got by but prospered and became a big voice in the world again, this is what we will do again.
I thank god that there were no “remainers” back then or we would still be filling in old bomb holes, lets just do what we do best. Harvey
Buzzer:
Now then if we had her dealing with him we would get what we wanted for sure, Buzzer.
Yeah right like all the rest of her stinking Party.It depends if your definition of ‘what we wanted’ means staying in the EU with the diversion of a couple of quid taken off the contributions bill and if you’re bleedin German not Brit working class.
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On that note remind us what happened to Enoch Powell.
HRS:
I thank god that there were no “remainers” back then or we would still be filling in old bomb holes, lets just do what we do best. Harvey
Of course there weren’t Harvey, few in their right minds wanted to remain at war, so we all pulled together and ‘the all’ included Europe as a whole. We, Europe, were all in the same boat and even Churchill himself welcomed the idea of a European Union. He even proposed an even closer union with France during the war, but the time was not right and de Gaulle, and the French government, rightly dismissed it.
The only difference was that the Yanks, yes, the saviours of our ‘independance’ now according to ardent Brexiteers, ‘lent’ us the money to rebuild whereas the destroyed economies across the Channel were ‘given’ their shares, thanks to good old General Marshall.
So yes, what we did best was catch up, but throwing the EU baby out with the bathwater now, will only put us right back into years of ‘catch up’ mode, all over again.
As Franglais says, there is much that is wrong and even corrupt in the EU system, but it is getting better and there is just as much wrong headedness and corruption in Britain with the pseudo democratic system we have, so better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. And the one we know at the moment is, just that, the one we know. The one we don’t know, is Britain after ‘independence’.
And if you truly believe you live in a democracy, I give you: a flawed voting system, the will of Parliament denied by a decree dating back nearly 500 years to one of the many Royal dictators, Henry the 8th, and a 2nd chamber entirely unelected and chosen by inheritence and reward for making a lot of money. As CF would say ‘you couldn’t make it up’.
But they did.
Spardo:
Buzzer:
Now then if we had her dealing with him we would get what we wanted for sure, Buzzer.MAGGIE IMHO THE BEST PM IN MY LIFETIME
Agreed to the second sentiment, but she would have had more sense than Cameron to sell the pass in the first place. Maggie got her way by sheer determination and force of personality. She wouldn’t have put herself in the position of being hog tied by a referendum which only served to demonstrate to the EU that whatever they agreed to, we would leave anyway.
All they have to do is sit back and wait, the clock is ticking, they know they have to concede nothing. Now I am not a poker player, but I know enough to know that the way the whole leaving thing has been organised is not even worthy of a bunch of amateurs, let alone professional politicians.
Oh, and by the way Buzzer, Maggie was a remainer.
So called Brexit voters admiring Maggie they couldn’t make it up.Yes we know the Con ‘Leave’ rabble isn’t worthy because it’s not meant to be.IE totally professional Remain saboteurs in that regard not amateur Leavers at all.But you already knew that which is why you’re able to keep on with your remain agenda because all too predictably the Cons are keeping it alive for you.
Really can’t believe the blind stupidity of the Thatcherite Leave vote and the Labour Remain vote in that regard.On that note Buzzer should join your lot he’s obviously more at home there.
peggydeckboy:
Kmills you obsvisiloy went to a grammer school so you wasted your education on driving lorries also you probly went to the same countries and places with group age and never roamed Europe on a blue book.or on fridge work.if you did not stand your ground and waved like the italians and raised your voice like them you were left behind .
There would have been not one word ona cassette you need in customs and agent a language esp in spain or when they held you for 2plus days waiting to clear, or in a french strike and the English were last to get cleared i most compounds.or when the basque police stopped all english for a bung or fine you for only their resons.you stood your ground and answersred them in your best british zb you lanuage. they did not give two monkeys if you spoke any Spanish your were in a English truck.and you paid.you obviously lead a sheltered life as far as European haulage went.
Did you never ever get stopped in France did you never have to pay the customs in calais a bung for yur diesel I bet not.you r school french would ha e made not one jot .so you learned to be just as arsee as them ,you knew you would never win with any of them .did you ever transit Swiss, or go to RUNGIS. or do Greece via Brindis or barri
austria another bunch of [zb]
at the breener I forgot the lovely German s at all their borders.
if you drove when all the customs were in force all over Europe your view would have been different in my opinion .if you did you must have blue eyes.pdb.
Just a couple of points Pdb,
Yes I was mostly on fridge work.
Yes I’ve used T forms / done customs.
No I never used a blue book…
Yes, I did quite of lot of Swiss & and I agree with you that the Swiss customs could be a pain in the a#se - I had more hassles off those zb’s, than any other.
BUT - the Swiss weren’t in the EU, so perhaps we wouldn’t have had so much trouble if they had of been- but who knows? I’d rather stick to the facts.
And here’s a fact for you - the bungs for fuel, tankscheins etc… all ended upon the introduction of a piece of Eu legislation called The Travellers Relief Act - where upon we were then all allowed to carry up to 1500 litres of fuel unhindered across any border within Europe - as long as it was used in the vehicle that it was carried on - ie, it was illegal to pump that fuel into other vehicles.
It was such a good deal running on cheap European diesel that many of us did rather well out of it - who didn’t have big fuel tanks made back in the day?
When I sold my motor, I set up in business manufacturing big fuel tanks, so I didn’t do too badly from that piece of Eu legislation.
I agree with you Buzzer regarding the Iron Lady…
Ok.kMills you done well,that bit of extra education gives a leg up sometimes.
The Behavior of last nights French fishermen tells the true story of our status in the EU.
from today I will not buy any French goods what so ever.ZB emm.pdb
peggydeckboy:
Ok.kMills you done well,that bit of extra education gives a leg up sometimes.
The Behavior of last nights French fishermen tells the true story of our status in the EU.from today I will not buy any French goods what so ever.ZB emm.pdb
Fair enough, but don’t you think you are a bit inconsistent? I agree that the British were legally in the right, and thus the French were in the wrong but I thought that that was the whole point of the Brexit campaign, to take back control of our own waters. Is it not understandable that the French would want to do the same? After all, this incident was close to the French coast.
But, the law is the law and it shouldn’t have happened. However, if the tables were turned and the British government allowed French fishermen to fish that close to Britain, while forbidding British fishermen to do so, would you be supporting the French? I somehow think not.
As to boycotting French goods, impossible, unless you are going to never buy a car again, or fly on an aircraft again. We all know what you think of red wine, and perhaps you don’t like French cheese too, but sifting through every purchase you make in future is going to be a very time consuming exercise.
Spardo:
And if you truly believe you live in a democracy, I give you: a flawed voting system, the will of Parliament denied by a decree dating back nearly 500 years to one of the many Royal dictators, Henry the 8th, and a 2nd chamber entirely unelected and chosen by inheritence and reward for making a lot of money. As CF would say ‘you couldn’t make it up’.But they did.
I’m sure you’ll find plenty of invading French blood line in the fat zb if you want to look for it.Just like the Plantagenet zb’s before him.Which makes the case for staying in the EU Federal zb pile how.
According to the BBC news at 6 this evening that clash of fishermen took place 12 miles of the coast not on there shoreline, just saying Buzzer.
Buzzer:
According to the BBC news at 6 this evening that clash of fishermen took place 12 miles of the coast not on there shoreline, just saying Buzzer.
Absolutely what I heard on the news too. International Waters. Legal move by the UK fishermen.
Any form of aggression, especially somewhere like the open sea is indefensible.
The French fishermen were upset that they had been ordered by their Gov not to fish in order to preserve stocks. For years the English had entered a “Gentlemen’s Agreement” to do the same. When the agreement …ended… they were angry.
No excuse to resort to any form of intimidation or violence of course.
Let’s hope two neighbours can sort this out.
Should this go to the courts in Paris or London I wonder?
If only there were somewhere in Europe with a court we could all sign up to?
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