Franglais:
If only there were somewhere in Europe with a court we could all sign up to?Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Hmmm? 
Franglais:
I reckon weâre better off sticking in this club where we pay out fees, begrudgingly maybe, but have a real say in the rules, and can do better than as a junior partner to Trumps USA or as an island trading under WTO rules.
Weâve got a lot going for us, and Iâd we take a more realistic view, we can get somwhere.Iâm with Cav we need to pay more taxes to get better hospitals and schools etc. We need to stop listening to false promises, no matter how sweet they are. Politicians promising more for less have knocked out country back already. I am not listening to those who claim an imaginary bright future outside the EU. Thatâs just more [zb] from the same [zb] who lie about domestic politics.
Weâve seen their lies on the national stage, why believe their lies about the international world?
This sums it up for me and I have to say Franglaisâs posts on the matter are the most convincing.
Remaining in my opinion was the best thing to do too but since the political personalities refused to really get involved in the EU or even get along and make it work, just like any bad marriage a no blame divorce might be better off. However it should remain amicable and not descend into the current name calling and porky pie fest that is going on now. We all know how that sort of divorce ends up.
As for the vitriolic attacks on the pro remain comments on this thread what are you scared of? Save your breath as Brexit will happen without doubt in my mind. The only snag in the process is it may happen sooner rather than later. It may happen next March without a deal or transition period and that will be bad for sure.
Much better to do some type of deal as that will come with probably a 2 year transition allowing everyone time to set up for the new system knowing exactly what they are setting up for.
But most unfortunately May and her Tory party deemed an even stronger majority government than the one they already had would bolster their negotiation hand in the divorce. Despite the weakness of opposition she seriously misjudged the electorateâs concern about Brexit and had to form a weak minority government with conflicting agendas seriously weakening her hand and thus the current negotiation fiasco.
Even worse the Tories who no longer represent the majority of voters are themselves seriously split on the issue resulting in an ever changing agenda at the negotiations so what can you expect to happen?
And every team manager knows that no one player no matter how good is more important than the team. The idea of a unique, better that the others, special deal for one is a fallacy because if he allowed it the âme tooâsâ would be all lined up at his door next morning or the team rips apart. So forget about that silly Borris soundbite.
Of course when the government policy became Brexit the remainers like May should not have been left in charge. It should have been led by Brexiteers going in with a single voice and the sucess or failure of the outcome clearly allocated to them.
If Brexiteers did not have control of government then they and the referendum should have been ignored until such time as there was a Brexit majority in government.
Anyway letâs agree something in the negotiations, even if only a transition period and move on.
16,000 new civil servants positions so far to handle Brexit is mind boggling new bureaucracy and seriously expensive.
There is not going to be a good outcome in my mind except Whitehall and Westminster will no longer be able to blame Brussles for their continued mismanagement of the country afterwards.
Then âLet The Revolution Beginâ 
âŚthere might just be a silver lining after all.
Franglais:
Buzzer:
According to the BBC news at 6 this evening that clash of fishermen took place 12 miles of the coast not on there shoreline, just saying Buzzer.Absolutely what I heard on the news too. International Waters. Legal move by the UK fishermen.
Any form of aggression, especially somewhere like the open sea is indefensible.
The French fishermen were upset that they had been ordered by their Gov not to fish in order to preserve stocks. For years the English had entered a âGentlemenâs Agreementâ to do the same. When the agreement âŚended⌠they were angry.
No excuse to resort to any form of intimidation or violence of course.
Letâs hope two neighbours can sort this out.Should this go to the courts in Paris or London I wonder?
If only there were somewhere in Europe with a court we could all sign up to?
Territorial waters extend to the 12 nautical 13 mile mark.Either itâs international waters or itâs not.If itâs the latter then French law applies.While the whole thing seems like a deliberate stunt dreamât up by remainers to say oh look the Brits need to fish in EU waters.No surprise the BBC would be all too keen to report the false flag op in that case. 
Hurryup&wait:
Franglais:
I reckon weâre better off sticking in this club where we pay out fees, begrudgingly maybe, but have a real say in the rules, and can do better than as a junior partner to Trumps USA or as an island trading under WTO rules.
Weâve got a lot going for us, and Iâd we take a more realistic view, we can get somwhere.Iâm with Cav we need to pay more taxes to get better hospitals and schools etc. We need to stop listening to false promises, no matter how sweet they are. Politicians promising more for less have knocked out country back already. I am not listening to those who claim an imaginary bright future outside the EU. Thatâs just more [zb] from the same [zb] who lie about domestic politics.
Weâve seen their lies on the national stage, why believe their lies about the international world?This sums it up for me and I have to say Franglaisâs posts on the matter are the most convincing.
Remaining in my opinion was the best thing to do too but since the political personalities refused to really get involved in the EU or even get along and make it work, just like any bad marriage a no blame divorce might be better off. However it should remain amicable and not descend into the current name calling and porky pie fest that is going on now. We all know how that sort of divorce ends up.
As for the vitriolic attacks on the pro remain comments on this thread what are you scared of? Save your breath as Brexit will happen without doubt in my mind. The only snag in the process is it may happen sooner rather than later. It may happen next March without a deal or transition period and that will be bad for sure.
Much better to do some type of deal as that will come with probably a 2 year transition allowing everyone time to set up for the new system knowing exactly what they are setting up for.But most unfortunately May and her Tory party deemed an even stronger majority government than the one they already had would bolster their negotiation hand in the divorce. Despite the weakness of opposition she seriously misjudged the electorateâs concern about Brexit and had to form a weak minority government with conflicting agendas seriously weakening her hand and thus the current negotiation fiasco.
Even worse the Tories who no longer represent the majority of voters are themselves seriously split on the issue resulting in an ever changing agenda at the negotiations so what can you expect to happen?
And every team manager knows that no one player no matter how good is more important than the team. The idea of a unique, better that the others, special deal for one is a fallacy because if he allowed it the âme tooâsâ would be all lined up at his door next morning or the team rips apart. So forget about that silly Borris soundbite.Of course when the government policy became Brexit the remainers like May should not have been left in charge. It should have been led by Brexiteers going in with a single voice and the sucess or failure of the outcome clearly allocated to them.
If Brexiteers did not have control of government then they and the referendum should have been ignored until such time as there was a Brexit majority in government.Anyway letâs agree something in the negotiations, even if only a transition period and move on.
16,000 new civil servants positions so far to handle Brexit is mind boggling new bureaucracy and seriously expensive.
There is not going to be a good outcome in my mind except Whitehall and Westminster will no longer be able to blame Brussles for their continued mismanagement of the country afterwards.
Then âLet The Revolution Beginâ
If the exit were being handled better I might not be as upset as I am. Seeing the infighting in the Tory party is awful. And Labour are hardly coevering themselves in glory by any stretch of the imagination.
Maybe the talks should have been given to some sort of cross party group of leavers? Too late now.
Another sign of the half-arsed leave campaign. Like a terrier chasing a bus, that actually catches it: What do I do now!? A good campaign* full of emotional rhetoric that won despite being vague on facts and real planning.
The vote was to choose between the same flawed stuff we knew about, or vague ideas (different depending on who was talking) so only after the vote was any Serious thinking done.
Having Brexiteers do the negotiating makes sense, but look at Farage? A leading Brexiteer but not elected in the UK. He could and did make sweeping claims and promises, but will never be held to account by any electorate if those are false. Like a TV sports pundit he now pontificates on the errors of those doing the difficult negotiating job.
After the leave result I was pretty peed off. But did hope for some sort of reasonable deal. There is still a little spark of hope left for something that will eventually work out. Of course there is, but Mrs Mayâs âNo deal is better than a bad dealâ rings very hollow to me.
On the plus side we no longer need to sneer at imported foreign baddies!
We are so divided now, both camps can find British politicians to shout at and make jokes about.
A good time for HIGNFY, News Quiz, etc. Only a pity Week-Ending and Spitting Image are sadly fallen.
*I mean a well managed campaign. The aims I disagree with clearly, and the messages that used were doubtful, but they went about it with vigour.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Why is it that its only the UK putting forward demands for a Brexit agreement, and why does Barnier just thrusts it aside with out any consideration is he the only one who makes any decisions, Mrs Merkel always had a voice but seems to have become dumb nowadays which to me is strange as Germany is one of the main players in the EU, Buzzer.
Buzzer:
Why is it that its only the UK putting forward demands for a Brexit agreement, and why does Barnier just thrusts it aside with out any consideration is he the only one who makes any decisions, Mrs Merkel always had a voice but seems to have become dumb nowadays which to me is strange as Germany is one of the main players in the EU, Buzzer.
Perhaps because he is the chief negotiator, and he doesnât need to keep making demands because the EU position has been made clear a long time ago. It is the UK that wants to leave, not the EU that wants to expel it, so it makes sense that it is for the UK to see what movement, if any, there is for it.
The fact that the EUâs position is clear and always has been for a closer than normal 3rd country deal (Norway, Switzerland, Iceland etc.) is not the EUâs fault. Why should it give the UK what it doesnât give to those countries?
Because of the pressure of my work over the last 6 years I eventually did not renew my petanque licence and club membership. I can still play in the covered bouledrome if I wish, but I have to pay a small fee. If I had demanded to leave, cease to pay the dues, but still use the facilities for free, would that have been reasonable? I think not. So I didnât. 
Hurryup&wait:
This sums it up for me and I have to say Franglaisâs posts on the matter are the most convincing.Remaining in my opinion was the best thing to do too but since the political personalities refused to really get involved in the EU or even get along and make it work, just like any bad marriage a no blame divorce might be better off. However it should remain amicable and not descend into the current name calling and porky pie fest that is going on now. We all know how that sort of divorce ends up.
As for the vitriolic attacks on the pro remain comments on this thread what are you scared of? Save your breath as Brexit will happen without doubt in my mind. The only snag in the process is it may happen sooner rather than later. It may happen next March without a deal or transition period and that will be bad for sure.
Much better to do some type of deal as that will come with probably a 2 year transition allowing everyone time to set up for the new system knowing exactly what they are setting up for.But most unfortunately May and her Tory party deemed an even stronger majority government than the one they already had would bolster their negotiation hand in the divorce. Despite the weakness of opposition she seriously misjudged the electorateâs concern about Brexit and had to form a weak minority government with conflicting agendas seriously weakening her hand and thus the current negotiation fiasco.
Even worse the Tories who no longer represent the majority of voters are themselves seriously split on the issue resulting in an ever changing agenda at the negotiations so what can you expect to happen?
And every team manager knows that no one player no matter how good is more important than the team. The idea of a unique, better that the others, special deal for one is a fallacy because if he allowed it the âme tooâsâ would be all lined up at his door next morning or the team rips apart. So forget about that silly Borris soundbite.Of course when the government policy became Brexit the remainers like May should not have been left in charge. It should have been led by Brexiteers going in with a single voice and the sucess or failure of the outcome clearly allocated to them.
If Brexiteers did not have control of government then they and the referendum should have been ignored until such time as there was a Brexit majority in government.Anyway letâs agree something in the negotiations, even if only a transition period and move on.
16,000 new civil servants positions so far to handle Brexit is mind boggling new bureaucracy and seriously expensive.
There is not going to be a good outcome in my mind except Whitehall and Westminster will no longer be able to blame Brussles for their continued mismanagement of the country afterwards.
Then âLet The Revolution Beginâ
Remoaners keep telling themselves that, when the reality was that the stupid bow wow was very quickly seen to be a complete disaster by the voters, and her party was once again putting forward its traditional blatant attack on sections of the population, which this time extended to the very people it needed to vote for it. There were many factors in its virtual defeat but claiming that Brexit was the cause, which could be argued to thus strengthen the case for a second, third and fourth referendum, is just stretching the old knicker elastic too far.
As for completely ignoring the result of the referendum at the time, that would have taken very careful handling, memories of summer 2011 would have been uppermost in the advice offered by the Police.
Franglais:
If the exit were being handled better I might not be as upset as I am. Seeing the infighting in the Tory party is awful. And Labour are hardly coevering themselves in glory by any stretch of the imagination.Maybe the talks should have been given to some sort of cross party group of leavers? Too late now.
Another sign of the half-arsed leave campaign. Like a terrier chasing a bus, that actually catches it: What do I do now!? A good campaign* full of emotional rhetoric that won despite being vague on facts and real planning.
The vote was to choose between the same flawed stuff we knew about, or vague ideas (different depending on who was talking) so only after the vote was any Serious thinking done.Having Brexiteers do the negotiating makes sense, but look at Farage? A leading Brexiteer but not elected in the UK. He could and did make sweeping claims and promises, but will never be held to account by any electorate if those are false. Like a TV sports pundit he now pontificates on the errors of those doing the difficult negotiating job.
After the leave result I was pretty peed off. But did hope for some sort of reasonable deal. There is still a little spark of hope left for something that will eventually work out. Of course there is, but Mrs Mayâs âNo deal is better than a bad dealâ rings very hollow to me.
On the plus side we no longer need to sneer at imported foreign baddies!
We are so divided now, both camps can find British politicians to shout at and make jokes about.
A good time for HIGNFY, News Quiz, etc. Only a pity Week-Ending and Spitting Image are sadly fallen.*I mean a well managed campaign. The aims I disagree with clearly, and the messages that used were doubtful, but they went about it with vigour.
No surprise that you selectively have no problem with the country being run by unelected Commissioners and a majority foreign MEP vote in Brussels who we have no electoral control over.But Farageâs National MEP vote here at home means nothing to you obviously including the rest of the UKIP vote in Brussels when it comes to Brexit.
As for Mayâs so called âerrorsâ.You know that the reality is that sheâs a remainer doing everything possible to keep your Federal EU dream alive by clearly sabotaging and delaying the process until the remainers,of which you are clearly one,can get total control over it again.While itâs obvious that youâd view anything other than keeping us tied to EU rule as âflawedâ.
As for âtransitionâ weâve had more than enough time for that since the referendum vote.Itâs now time to walk away and close the door behind us on Heathâs treasonous actions and all those who support them.With a no deal hard Brexit obviously being the only possible scenario which would deliver what the Leave manifesto promised.In which case it would have made no difference whether we carried that out in 2016 or later and certainly no need for any bs âtransitionâ regarding a simple change in our relationship with the stinking EU which could have been implemented over night.
Spardo:
Perhaps because he is the chief negotiator, and he doesnât need to keep making demands because the EU position has been made clear a long time ago. It is the UK that wants to leave, not the EU that wants to expel it, so it makes sense that it is for the UK to see what movement, if any, there is for it.The fact that the EUâs position is clear and always has been for a closer than normal 3rd country deal (Norway, Switzerland, Iceland etc.) is not the EUâs fault. Why should it give the UK what it doesnât give to those countries?
Because of the pressure of my work over the last 6 years I eventually did not renew my petanque licence and club membership. I can still play in the covered bouledrome if I wish, but I have to pay a small fee. If I had demanded to leave, cease to pay the dues, but still use the facilities for free, would that have been reasonable? I think not. So I didnât.
Firstly we voted to leave the EU because we donât want to be ruled by or be part of the EU Federation.Which obviously counts out a vassal state Swiss type stitch up.While it obviously isnât the Leave vote that is doing all the moaning about the only possible realistic outcome of a no deal Brexit in which we have a similar relationship with the EU as New Zealand in that regard.Thatâs actually all about remainers putting up bs non existent obstacles in the form of their usual project fear which theyâve relied on from the start now reaching hysterical and laughable levels.While itâs obvious that weâd actually end up with none of the benefits of the Brexit we voted for and even worse downsides of EU membership if we went for a Swiss type deal.
On that note Raab himself admits that it will take a general election to decide what happens next with the Cons true to form never having the slightest intention of honouring a Leave means Leave referendum vote.For those like Buzzer and Bewick feel free to vote again like sheep for the same Party which took us into the Federal mire and which is doing everything possible to keep us in it.Also bearing in mind that for their information,that like Heath and Major and Cameron and May,Thatcher was definitely a remainer.With Powell being the only decent Tory in that regard.
Subsequent to April next year,post Brexit,wouldnât it be interesting for the other EU countries to have their own referendum on whether to leave or remain within the EU.
Any suggestions as to which countries you think might vote to leave?
David
5thwheel:
Subsequent to April next year,post Brexit,wouldnât it be interesting for the other EU countries to have their own referendum on whether to leave or remain within the EU.Any suggestions as to which countries you think might vote to leave?
David
Holland for sure but at the moment have the wrong political personal in power, they have already been told they will have to pay more in tax for the void left by the UK, Buzzer.
5thwheel:
Subsequent to April next year,post Brexit,wouldnât it be interesting for the other EU countries to have their own referendum on whether to leave or remain within the EU.Any suggestions as to which countries you think might vote to leave?
The most likely scenario would be if push comes to shove regarding the immigration issue resulting in the EU imposing severe economic sanctions on Hungary and Poland over it.Theyâd both obviously have nothing to lose then.Although you can bet that the US would then show its true Federalist EU supporting colours by threatening them with reducing âNATOâ ( read EU ) defence âco operationâ v Russia
Which leaves the least likely,but most effective,scenario of the AfD and FN winning out in France.At which point I for one would go for re joining them on the basis of a Confederal Europe, which recognises the supremacy and the freedom of the individual Nation States to do whatever they think is right for them,in the decision making process. 
Buzzer:
Holland for sure but at the moment have the wrong political personal in power, they have already been told they will have to pay more in tax for the void left by the UK, Buzzer.
Like the Tory vote here theyâve only got the wrong political rabble that theyâve voted for themselves.Iâd guess we can put Holland with the other full on EU committed loons like Belgium and Luxembourg and Denmark.The cash subsidies are just a bonus to that lot.It would take a miracle for them to want to leave it.
Buzzer:
5thwheel:
Subsequent to April next year,post Brexit,wouldnât it be interesting for the other EU countries to have their own referendum on whether to leave or remain within the EU.Any suggestions as to which countries you think might vote to leave?
David
Holland for sure but at the moment have the wrong political personal in power, they have already been told they will have to pay more in tax for the void left by the UK, Buzzer.
I agree Buzzer,I think the Greeks have had enough too,and perhaps a couple of Eastern Bloc countries would join them,if there was enough "leaving "countries,perhaps they could start an EU 2!!!
David
5thwheel:
I agree Buzzer,I think the Greeks have had enough too,and perhaps a couple of Eastern Bloc countries would join them,if there was enough "leaving "countries,perhaps they could start an EU 2!!!
But the Greeks have had a referendum on the subject already, David, I thought that went against all the bounds of democracy to have another, doesnât it? Be a bit much if they said remain, and then, after all the billions of bailout, said leave, wouldnât it? As Buzzer would say âjust sayingâ.
As to all the other easterns leaving, it might just be enough to persuade the original 6, to stay.
Spardo:
5thwheel:
I agree Buzzer,I think the Greeks have had enough too,and perhaps a couple of Eastern Bloc countries would join them,if there was enough "leaving "countries,perhaps they could start an EU 2!!!But the Greeks have had a referendum on the subject already, David, I thought that went against all the bounds of democracy to have another, doesnât it? Be a bit much if they said remain, and then, after all the billions of bailout, said leave, wouldnât it? As Buzzer would say âjust sayingâ.
As to all the others easterns leaving, it might just be enough to persuade the original 6, to stay.
Sorry I wasnât aware the Greeks had had another referendum,as you say,democracy gone mad!
My personal view is that once the UK leaves,it could be the unraveling of the âclubâ,although not immediately,but could provide the impetus for others to follow.
As you saidâŚâjust sayingââŚlol,lol, 
David
Carryfast:
Franglais:
If the exit were being handled better I might not be as upset as I am. Seeing the infighting in the Tory party is awful. And Labour are hardly coevering themselves in glory by any stretch of the imagination.Maybe the talks should have been given to some sort of cross party group of leavers? Too late now.
Another sign of the half-arsed leave campaign. Like a terrier chasing a bus, that actually catches it: What do I do now!? A good campaign* full of emotional rhetoric that won despite being vague on facts and real planning.
The vote was to choose between the same flawed stuff we knew about, or vague ideas (different depending on who was talking) so only after the vote was any Serious thinking done.Having Brexiteers do the negotiating makes sense, but look at Farage? A leading Brexiteer but not elected in the UK. He could and did make sweeping claims and promises, but will never be held to account by any electorate if those are false. Like a TV sports pundit he now pontificates on the errors of those doing the difficult negotiating job.
After the leave result I was pretty peed off. But did hope for some sort of reasonable deal. There is still a little spark of hope left for something that will eventually work out. Of course there is, but Mrs Mayâs âNo deal is better than a bad dealâ rings very hollow to me.
On the plus side we no longer need to sneer at imported foreign baddies!
We are so divided now, both camps can find British politicians to shout at and make jokes about.
A good time for HIGNFY, News Quiz, etc. Only a pity Week-Ending and Spitting Image are sadly fallen.*I mean a well managed campaign. The aims I disagree with clearly, and the messages that used were doubtful, but they went about it with vigour.
No surprise that you selectively have no problem with the country being run by unelected Commissioners and a majority foreign MEP vote in Brussels who we have no electoral control over.But Farageâs National MEP vote here at home means nothing to you obviously including the rest of the UKIP vote in Brussels when it comes to Brexit.
As for Mayâs so called âerrorsâ.You know that the reality is that sheâs a remainer doing everything possible to keep your Federal EU dream alive by clearly sabotaging and delaying the process until the remainers,of which you are clearly one,can get total control over it again.While itâs obvious that youâd view anything other than keeping us tied to EU rule as âflawedâ.
As for âtransitionâ weâve had more than enough time for that since the referendum vote.Itâs now time to walk away and close the door behind us on Heathâs treasonous actions and all those who support them.With a no deal hard Brexit obviously being the only possible scenario which would deliver what the Leave manifesto promised.In which case it would have made no difference whether we carried that out in 2016 or later and certainly no need for any bs âtransitionâ regarding a simple change in our relationship with the stinking EU which could have been implemented over night.
I said Farage can snipe from the side lines because he has no place on UK politics currently. He isnât even leader of UKIP is he?
I have never said that the UK system is totally fair.
UKIP do have supporters who arenât fairly represented, in the UK Parliament, yes, youâre right. There is a lot to be said for Proportional Representation. Some argue it gives âbalance holdingâ smaller parties too much clout. As if that hasnât happened now with the DUP!
I also never said I donât have any problems with the EU. Please donât put words in my mouth.
âA majority of foreign MEPsâ you say?
Well since we are one country out of 28 thatâs hardly a shock! In the UK Parliament my home Hampshire MPs are vastly outnumbered by those northerners. I donât see what your problem there is?
But letâs look at the infamous âunelected commissionersâ? Lots of shouting about them isnât there.
Lots of bad feeling which, from the basic facts seems justified. But look a little deeper and the reasons for them seem a bit more explicable.
In the Eu Parliament there are elected representatives. Our MEPs. Much the same as MPs in the UK Parliament. They speak up for their own region and country.
In the UK we have a Prime Minister who normally is the leader of the majority party. He/she chooses a Cabinet of Ministers. These are normally elected MPs but NOT always. They can be from the Lords. They can be âunelectedâ persons. (Lord Mandelson, Lord Young of Graffham). There are appointments made by the PM.
So what about the unelected EU Commissioners? None are elected. There is one from each member state and with the President of the EU form something akin to the UKâs Prime Minister and Cabinet. They promise to do what is best for the EU as a whole. Remember the MEPs are there to fight for their countries. Each country nominated itâs own commissioner. The PM chooses one as he/she chooses a minister. They will reflect the party politics of the ruling party of course but be independent of petty election worries. Yâknow be above the âshort termismâ we moan about.
If the commissioners were elected how would that work? We couldnât get 4 from the UK and none from Poland or Portugal in fairness could we? And in the UK we donât elect the Cahancellor or Foreign Secretary. We donât even always elect the Prime Minister! Mrs May took her first (short) term on the back of Cameronâs resignation.
The EU system is designed to keep the EU going forward without giving any one country too much clout. It is different to our system and so takes some understanding. Quite probably Iâve made some bloopers but Iâm sure Iâll be corrected.
But the system tries to treat all countries equally as far as possible. It isnât as it is, through accident, or lack of thought.
Again it ainât perfect, but neither is our own system. Nor is any other system. Weâve had Harold Wilson with 4 more seats than the Tories although they had overall a greater part of the popular vote. Weâve already seen the lack of MPs for smaller parties. We have Trump in the WhiteHouse although Clinton had nearly 3million more votes. The EU system is really no better or worse than many others.
Rip it up? What could replace it?
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
5thwheel:
Sorry I wasnât aware the Greeks had had another referendum,as you say,democracy gone mad!
Yes, a couple of years or so ago I think, at the start of their crisis when they up to their necks in debt. An anti-EU party was elected, then they had riots in the streets, and then they had a referendum which was a vote to stay, so the anti party said âoh, we donât want to resign so weâll stay, now please can we have our bailout?â
I think thatâs the way it went, but as Eric Morcambe once said, âI am playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right orderâ.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Franglais:
If the exit were being handled better I might not be as upset as I am. Seeing the infighting in the Tory party is awful. And Labour are hardly coevering themselves in glory by any stretch of the imagination.Maybe the talks should have been given to some sort of cross party group of leavers? Too late now.
Another sign of the half-arsed leave campaign. Like a terrier chasing a bus, that actually catches it: What do I do now!? A good campaign* full of emotional rhetoric that won despite being vague on facts and real planning.
The vote was to choose between the same flawed stuff we knew about, or vague ideas (different depending on who was talking) so only after the vote was any Serious thinking done.Having Brexiteers do the negotiating makes sense, but look at Farage? A leading Brexiteer but not elected in the UK. He could and did make sweeping claims and promises, but will never be held to account by any electorate if those are false. Like a TV sports pundit he now pontificates on the errors of those doing the difficult negotiating job.
After the leave result I was pretty peed off. But did hope for some sort of reasonable deal. There is still a little spark of hope left for something that will eventually work out. Of course there is, but Mrs Mayâs âNo deal is better than a bad dealâ rings very hollow to me.
On the plus side we no longer need to sneer at imported foreign baddies!
We are so divided now, both camps can find British politicians to shout at and make jokes about.
A good time for HIGNFY, News Quiz, etc. Only a pity Week-Ending and Spitting Image are sadly fallen.*I mean a well managed campaign. The aims I disagree with clearly, and the messages that used were doubtful, but they went about it with vigour.
No surprise that you selectively have no problem with the country being run by unelected Commissioners and a majority foreign MEP vote in Brussels who we have no electoral control over.But Farageâs National MEP vote here at home means nothing to you obviously including the rest of the UKIP vote in Brussels when it comes to Brexit.
As for Mayâs so called âerrorsâ.You know that the reality is that sheâs a remainer doing everything possible to keep your Federal EU dream alive by clearly sabotaging and delaying the process until the remainers,of which you are clearly one,can get total control over it again.While itâs obvious that youâd view anything other than keeping us tied to EU rule as âflawedâ.
As for âtransitionâ weâve had more than enough time for that since the referendum vote.Itâs now time to walk away and close the door behind us on Heathâs treasonous actions and all those who support them.With a no deal hard Brexit obviously being the only possible scenario which would deliver what the Leave manifesto promised.In which case it would have made no difference whether we carried that out in 2016 or later and certainly no need for any bs âtransitionâ regarding a simple change in our relationship with the stinking EU which could have been implemented over night.
I said Farage can snipe from the side lines because he has no place on UK politics currently. He isnât even leader of UKIP is he?
I have never said that the UK system is totally fair.
UKIP do have supporters who arenât fairly represented, in the UK Parliament, yes, youâre right. There is a lot to be said for Proportional Representation. Some argue it gives âbalance holdingâ smaller parties too much clout. As if that hasnât happened now with the DUP!I also never said I donât have any problems with the EU. Please donât put words in my mouth.
âA majority of foreign MEPsâ you say?
Well since we are one country out of 28 thatâs hardly a shock! In the UK Parliament my home Hampshire MPs are vastly outnumbered by those northerners. I donât see what your problem there is?But letâs look at the infamous âunelected commissionersâ? Lots of shouting about them isnât there.
Lots of bad feeling which, from the basic facts seems justified. But look a little deeper and the reasons for them seem a bit more explicable.
In the Eu Parliament there are elected representatives. Our MEPs. Much the same as MPs in the UK Parliament. They speak up for their own region and country.
In the UK we have a Prime Minister who normally is the leader of the majority party. He/she chooses a Cabinet of Ministers. These are normally elected MPs but NOT always. They can be from the Lords. They can be âunelectedâ persons. (Lord Mandelson, Lord Young of Graffham). There are appointments made by the PM.
So what about the unelected EU Commissioners? None are elected. There is one from each member state and with the President of the EU form something akin to the UKâs Prime Minister and Cabinet. They promise to do what is best for the EU as a whole. Remember the MEPs are there to fight for their countries. Each country nominated itâs own commissioner. The PM chooses one as he/she chooses a minister. They will reflect the party politics of the ruling party of course but be independent of petty election worries. Yâknow be above the âshort termismâ we moan about.
If the commissioners were elected how would that work? We couldnât get 4 from the UK and none from Poland or Portugal in fairness could we? And in the UK we donât elect the Cahancellor or Foreign Secretary. We donât even always elect the Prime Minister! Mrs May took her first (short) term on the back of Cameronâs resignation.The EU system is designed to keep the EU going forward without giving any one country too much clout. It is different to our system and so takes some understanding. Quite probably Iâve made some bloopers but Iâm sure Iâll be corrected.
But the system tries to treat all countries equally as far as possible. It isnât as it is, through accident, or lack of thought.
Again it ainât perfect, but neither is our own system. Nor is any other system. Weâve had Harold Wilson with 4 more seats than the Tories although they had overall a greater part of the popular vote. Weâve already seen the lack of MPs for smaller parties. We have Trump in the WhiteHouse although Clinton had nearly 3million more votes. The EU system is really no better or worse than many others.
Rip it up? What could replace it?
It doesnât matter whether Farage is leader of UKIP or not.You said that he hasnât been elected in the UK when he clearly has as an MEP and which youâre conveniently all too happy with when the MEP system is in favour of your beloved EU Federal zb pile but obviously from your point of view it doesnât count if itâs against it.
As for Hampshire being ruled by the majority Brit vote.No as Iâve argued with Rjan previously I donât agree with that either assuming itâs a matter which only affects Hampshire etc.Such as MPâs without even a mine in their constituency deciding the future of the Yorkshire and Welsh mining industry.Or Northern MPâs telling us how good it is to cover the South East in motorways,housing and airport capacity while at the same time pretending to then moan about the North not receiving any of it.Itâs called local democracy and democratic accountability.So going along with your Federal system of a majority foreign vote deciding what happens in this country fixes that how.
You say what could replace it.While you also say no country should have too much clout.When itâs clear that a Confederal,as opposed to Federal,Europe would tick all the boxes.Of firstly state sovereignty and with it democratic accountability by getting rid of the unelected Commissioners and giving every state the right to say no thanks weâll opt out or do something different to suit ourselves according to our national vote in the form of opt out or substitution.IE no one has too much clout under that system because everyone has the individual right to consent or to say not for us but you can if you want to.But then you already knew that and itâs obvious that like all remainers underneath it all youâre really a Soviet style Federalist who just likes the idea of Soviet style rule imposed across Europe.
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If the exit were being handled better I might not be as upset as I am. Seeing the infighting in the Tory party is awful. And Labour are hardly coevering themselves in glory by any stretch of the imagination.Maybe the talks should have been given to some sort of cross party group of leavers? Too late now.
Another sign of the half-arsed leave campaign. Like a terrier chasing a bus, that actually catches it: What do I do now!? A good campaign* full of emotional rhetoric that won despite being vague on facts and real planning.
The vote was to choose between the same flawed stuff we knew about, or vague ideas (different depending on who was talking) so only after the vote was any Serious thinking done.Having Brexiteers do the negotiating makes sense, but look at Farage? A leading Brexiteer but not elected in the UK. He could and did make sweeping claims and promises, but will never be held to account by any electorate if those are false. Like a TV sports pundit he now pontificates on the errors of those doing the difficult negotiating job.
After the leave result I was pretty peed off. But did hope for some sort of reasonable deal. There is still a little spark of hope left for something that will eventually work out. Of course there is, but Mrs Mayâs âNo deal is better than a bad dealâ rings very hollow to me.
On the plus side we no longer need to sneer at imported foreign baddies!
We are so divided now, both camps can find British politicians to shout at and make jokes about.
A good time for HIGNFY, News Quiz, etc. Only a pity Week-Ending and Spitting Image are sadly fallen.*I mean a well managed campaign. The aims I disagree with clearly, and the messages that used were doubtful, but they went about it with vigour.
No surprise that you selectively have no problem with the country being run by unelected Commissioners and a majority foreign MEP vote in Brussels who we have no electoral control over.But Farageâs National MEP vote here at home means nothing to you obviously including the rest of the UKIP vote in Brussels when it comes to Brexit.
As for Mayâs so called âerrorsâ.You know that the reality is that sheâs a remainer doing everything possible to keep your Federal EU dream alive by clearly sabotaging and delaying the process until the remainers,of which you are clearly one,can get total control over it again.While itâs obvious that youâd view anything other than keeping us tied to EU rule as âflawedâ.
As for âtransitionâ weâve had more than enough time for that since the referendum vote.Itâs now time to walk away and close the door behind us on Heathâs treasonous actions and all those who support them.With a no deal hard Brexit obviously being the only possible scenario which would deliver what the Leave manifesto promised.In which case it would have made no difference whether we carried that out in 2016 or later and certainly no need for any bs âtransitionâ regarding a simple change in our relationship with the stinking EU which could have been implemented over night.
I said Farage can snipe from the side lines because he has no place on UK politics currently. He isnât even leader of UKIP is he?
I have never said that the UK system is totally fair.
UKIP do have supporters who arenât fairly represented, in the UK Parliament, yes, youâre right. There is a lot to be said for Proportional Representation. Some argue it gives âbalance holdingâ smaller parties too much clout. As if that hasnât happened now with the DUP!I also never said I donât have any problems with the EU. Please donât put words in my mouth.
âA majority of foreign MEPsâ you say?
Well since we are one country out of 28 thatâs hardly a shock! In the UK Parliament my home Hampshire MPs are vastly outnumbered by those northerners. I donât see what your problem there is?But letâs look at the infamous âunelected commissionersâ? Lots of shouting about them isnât there.
Lots of bad feeling which, from the basic facts seems justified. But look a little deeper and the reasons for them seem a bit more explicable.
In the Eu Parliament there are elected representatives. Our MEPs. Much the same as MPs in the UK Parliament. They speak up for their own region and country.
In the UK we have a Prime Minister who normally is the leader of the majority party. He/she chooses a Cabinet of Ministers. These are normally elected MPs but NOT always. They can be from the Lords. They can be âunelectedâ persons. (Lord Mandelson, Lord Young of Graffham). There are appointments made by the PM.
So what about the unelected EU Commissioners? None are elected. There is one from each member state and with the President of the EU form something akin to the UKâs Prime Minister and Cabinet. They promise to do what is best for the EU as a whole. Remember the MEPs are there to fight for their countries. Each country nominated itâs own commissioner. The PM chooses one as he/she chooses a minister. They will reflect the party politics of the ruling party of course but be independent of petty election worries. Yâknow be above the âshort termismâ we moan about.
If the commissioners were elected how would that work? We couldnât get 4 from the UK and none from Poland or Portugal in fairness could we? And in the UK we donât elect the Cahancellor or Foreign Secretary. We donât even always elect the Prime Minister! Mrs May took her first (short) term on the back of Cameronâs resignation.The EU system is designed to keep the EU going forward without giving any one country too much clout. It is different to our system and so takes some understanding. Quite probably Iâve made some bloopers but Iâm sure Iâll be corrected.
But the system tries to treat all countries equally as far as possible. It isnât as it is, through accident, or lack of thought.
Again it ainât perfect, but neither is our own system. Nor is any other system. Weâve had Harold Wilson with 4 more seats than the Tories although they had overall a greater part of the popular vote. Weâve already seen the lack of MPs for smaller parties. We have Trump in the WhiteHouse although Clinton had nearly 3million more votes. The EU system is really no better or worse than many others.
Rip it up? What could replace it?It doesnât matter whether Farage is leader of UKIP or not.You said that he hasnât been elected in the UK when he clearly has as an MEP and which youâre conveniently all too happy with when the MEP system is in favour of your beloved EU Federal zb pile but obviously from your point of view it doesnât count if itâs against it.
As for Hampshire being ruled by the majority Brit vote.No as Iâve argued with Rjan previously I donât agree with that either assuming itâs a matter which only affects Hampshire etc.Such as MPâs without even a mine in their constituency deciding the future of the Yorkshire and Welsh mining industry.Or Northern MPâs telling us how good it is to cover the South East in motorways,housing and airport capacity while at the same time pretending to then moan about the North not receiving any of it.Itâs called local democracy and democratic accountability.So going along with your Federal system of a majority foreign vote deciding what happens in this country fixes that how.
You say what could replace it.While you also say no country should have too much clout.When itâs clear that a Confederal,as opposed to Federal,Europe would tick all the boxes.Of firstly state sovereignty and with it democratic accountability by getting rid of the unelected Commissioners and giving every state the right to say no thanks weâll opt out or do something different to suit ourselves according to our national vote in the form of opt out or substitution.IE no one has too much clout under that system because everyone has the individual right to consent or to say not for us but you can if you want to.But then you already knew that and itâs obvious that like all remainers underneath it all youâre really a Soviet style Federalist who just likes the idea of Soviet style rule imposed across Europe.
I was trying to make the point that Farage can freely criticise as he has no responsibility in the exit talks. I also said that may be a cross party team (maybe including him) should have been used. Too late for that now. Maybe we agree that he should have had a place there? There is a valid argument for that.
Yes, you and Rjan debated the aspects of having local vetoes in national Gov systems, and you made your views plain. I think you and Rjan know more about that than me. I do come down more with his/her views than yours.
What I was trying to do is show the UK and EU systems are both flawed systems. But that the popular shout of âunelected commissionersâ isnât IMHO quite as bad as it first sounds.
In the Real World perfect systems of government donât exist.
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