Eu referendum whats your vote

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
4241

Spardo:

Carryfast:
Oh wait Notts area not Yorks,Kent,or Wales.So they got what they wanted a divided working class based on wholesale scabbing and total loss of the solidarity ethic.Remind us how many Notts pits weren’t closed down like all the rest. :unamused:

Yes, the Democratic Notts coalfield, denied a vote by Scargill which was all they asked for, and never got. There were no scabs in Nottinghamshire. And it was Scargill who divided the miners against each other because he daren’t let them vote.

CF not all Notts pits closed several remained for some years after the strike ended, Olleton closed in ‘94, Thoresby in 2014, but these remained open because they were saved by a private venture that took over from the National Coal Board, they were seen as workable viable pits Ollerton was already cross mining the Welbeck and Bevercotes seams.
Bevercotes was always going to close it was the newest mine sunk by the NCB and was a white elephant from day one, the first few tonnes of coal brought up the shaft had been mined at Ollerton and taken across by road lowered into the pit and when Prince Charles pushed the button to open the mine up came the coal, Bevercotes became both a working mine and the training centre for York’s and Notts, having all state of the art equipment, it also remained working during the strike although only running on about 50 - 75% of staff.
If you do your research Carryfast instead of trying to prove a point, you’ll find the strike was illegal, Cortonwood was the first to close in ‘84 which sparked the strike, but the ballot result wasn’t taken from ‘84 but from a ballot taken in ‘81.
Sadly Spardo there were scabs in both York’s and Notts, Welbeck, Shirebrook, Clipstone, Manvers, Thoresby, and Ollerton hence the flying pickets stopping working miners going through the gates, Ollerton saw the first death as a young miner from York’s was killed which only increased the anger of the striking miners, Hood tried to calm the situation but it was Scargill who spoke to them and got them to calm down.
As typical tearaway teens, me and my mates would attend the picket lines with our dads, but after the miner was killed we were no longer allowed to go, which was only a good thing as the police had began using new tactics and at Selby brought in horses along with heavily manning the choke points, I remember my dad stating there must be a grass within the meetings for something like that to happen.
Towards the end of the strike miners were losing hope with Scargill, a year on the picket lines and they had made no progress, each NUM area began to take control and miners were beginning to slowly return to work.

4242

Grumpy Dad:

Carryfast:

Grumpy Dad:
Scargill didn’t kill the industry alone, it was two sided. He was very militant and had gathered support during unofficial strikes in the early 70’s regarding wages, then at the Lofthouse incident he became a hero getting his hands dirty with the rescue teams, but his time as Yorkshire NUM leader he did nothing about the pits Labour had closed ( approx 60 ).
The Tories were given the task by ECES to modernise the coal industry, this was European wide not just aimed at British pits. The cost of this modernisation would cost millions soTories decided that to save the industry they had to look at what would be the most profitable pits to save and modernise, which pits could be sold to private / foreign investors and which pits were running at a loss but whose seams could be salvaged by neighbouring mines. The idea was put before the NUM and it was rejected. After several negotiations failed Scargill brought the men out stating enough pits had closed already and the industry would take no more, tied together with low wages he had a lot of backing.
The pits could have been saved if either side backed down, but standing for a year, floods and build up of gases made many of them unworkable, so apart from the ones earmarked for closure by the Tories ( some of those were already set for closure by labour ) Scargill committed industrial suicide.
The steelworkers were told any industrial action in support would see the steelworks close, as the government would not have another knife held at their throat, they went on strike and Thatcher kept her word.

Scargill and the rank and file were militant because they had reason to be.

While it obviously wasn’t just the mining industry and steel industries which she massacred.

On that note yes ‘modernisation’ which in reality meant a deliberate policy and process of destroying numerous domestic strategic industries.In large part ironically to the benefit of higher paid German workers and in the case of the mining industry more heavily subsidised coal imports and of course surprise surprise the French nuclear energy industry.

As for that process supposedly only being mines ‘earmarked for closure’.Remind us how many actually survive and if it was supposedly all about a planned cull of unworkable mines and Scargill’s intransigence and a militant 1970’s NUM how do you explain the recent closure of the last pit Kellingley ?.Or for that matter the fact that the British working class is now just a weak divided disparate rabble with collapsing wages,terms and conditions to prove it.

It’s even more ironic and laughable that it’s the hopelessly divided road transport industry workforce calling miners militants and obviously taking remainer Thatcher’s side who did more damage to this country,to he benefit of Germany,than Hitler could have dreamed of.On that note who really gives a zb whether the EU takes the place or not. :unamused:

Firstly Carryfast my father was a miner in the Notts area, his best mate and drinking buddy was Jimmy Hood ( now leader of the Socialist Workers Party, google him ) Hood helped my father get promoted to deputy after he almost died in an accident, the old union hush hush pay off, Hood was Scargills righthand man Notts, so when you start bleating [zb] you’ve read, try living through it.
The Tories gave Scargill an option, but at cost, the previous labour government had closed numerous pits, and pits that closed during the first months of the Tories leadership were labours doing.
The ECES laid down rules that the mining industry European wide needed modernising, the mines around Lille and Ronqc, can still be seen. The Tories gave the NUM the option in a bid to save viable pits, and make money from non viable , by cross mining neighbouring mines, and selling others.
Scargill used this as his final straw and stated there would be no more closures, the government knew that without financial assistance they couldn’t afford to fund the modernisation of the viable mines.
Scargill never raised an eyebrow when Labour closed the mines, but as NUM leader he had what Gormley had lost years before and that was the men behind him. He was also prepared to sacrifice the pits earmarked for closure as well as those to be sold, he didn’t have anything to loose in theory.
The year long strike and the militancy of the miners not allowing skeleton safety crews in meant firedamp, methane build up and flooding and many of the pits were unworkable and they closed within months of the strike ending along with pits the government had already earmarked.
Thatchers card up her sleeve was a post war agreement with Poland regarding repayment for the military equipment and supplies provided to them, this repayment wasn’t cash it was coal, she increased the agreed import quota prior to the strike along with power stations stockpiling, There were also Polish miners on stand by to flown over to work the mines.

Are you sure about all of that?

If the mines were not accessible after the strike because of flooding and lack of maintenance why did it take months for them to close afterwards?
Did the miners really stop maintenance crews from going in? Were they that foolish?

What war debt did Poland have towards the UK? The UK was buying coal, (ed. during strike) including Polish coal sure, but how did the UK, in receipt of equipment and food from the USA (ed. during war) etc sell such on to others?

Why would the communist Polish Gov, or Polish union workers, support a UK Tory Gov to break a strike?

4243

Can someone explain what all this miners stuff that happened nearly forty years ago got to do with Brexit, just think we are a bit of course or is that just me, Buzzer

4244

Grumpy Dad:
Sadly Spardo there were scabs in both York’s and Notts, Welbeck, Shirebrook, Clipstone, Manvers, Thoresby, and Ollerton hence the flying pickets stopping working miners going through the gates,

Not sure what you mean by scabs in Notts GD, to me a scab is someone who crosses a picket line to do the work of those striking. Totally unacceptable and something I have not and would not ever do. But in Notts, where the miners had democratically refused to strike until a proper vote was held nationally. Who were the scabs who were crossing the picket lines of miners from Yorks or elsewhere who had no right to be there in the first place. Certainly not the legitimately working Notts miners.

My memory is vivid about the flying pickets and their violent tactics. At first we agreed to a police request to stop and discuss then enter or turn around, but the violence to ourselves and our lorries soon escalated the situation as massed ranks of police tried to hold back the pickets and we were advised to drive through at speed.

But with age my memory becomes blurred and, as I was involved both in '72 and '84, I sometimes think I confuse the 2. An example of this is that I was working for Bulkliners of Beeston, loading open top containers for the Freightliner trains to London but I can’t remember in which strike, '84 I think. Bulkliners, brown Atkis, was owned by a company based just outside the pit at Ollerton, green Atkis, but I can’t for the life of me remember the name of them. Sometimes the name of the boss there, not a nice bloke I think, comes to mind, then disappears again, like now> :unamused: I was only in Ollerton pit once, and that to collect a trailer, not load, because the parent company did all the loading and we normally collected the trailers from their yard.

Edit, a brief flashback has occurred, I think the company was NCC :question: :laughing:

Related but interesting I think and fiction not fact. Val McDermid the crime writer was born and brought up in the Fife coalfield and one of her novels is set partly during the ‘84 strike and partly in the present. The plot involves the ongoing mystery of 2 miners who disappeared during the strike and it was thought that they had travelled south to work in Notts. I am not going to reveal any details but I was struck that she condemns equally Margaret Thatcher and Arthur Scargill, who she calls contemptuously, King Arthur. There is obviously no doubt in her mind who led the miners up the disastrous garden path as she, on the other hand, speaks fondly of Mick McGahey, the communist Scottish miners’ leader.

4245

Buzzer:
Can someone explain what all this miners stuff that happened nearly forty years ago got to do with Brexit, just think we are a bit of course or is that just me, Buzzer

Can’t remember, Buzzer, but someone brought it up a few pages ago and it must have been triggered by the current debate. Check back if you are really interested. :slight_smile:

4246

Grumpy Dad:

Spardo:

kmills:
Er…Buzzer - that is the whole point. A United Europe - to prevent another war starting…

Exactly.

Really ■■ The original 6 members didn’t sit down and talk of how to stop future wars, part of the surrender agreement signed by Germany prevented them from entering any form of military operations that included logistical support.
Rebuilding industries and cutting duties to achieve improved economies were the foundations.

Yes. Really.
europa.eu/european-union/about- … aration_en
The Schuman Declaration of 1950.
"A peaceful Europe – the beginnings of cooperation
The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace. The six founding countries are Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. The 1950s are dominated by a cold war between east and west. Protests in Hungary against the Communist regime are put down by Soviet tanks in 1956. In 1957, the Treaty of Rome creates the European Economic Community (EEC), or ‘Common Market’.

The historical roots of the European Union lie in the Second World War. Europeans are determined to prevent such killing and destruction from ever happening again. Soon after the war, Europe is split into East and West as the 40-year-long Cold War begins. West European nations create the Council of Europe in 1949. It is a first step towards cooperation between them, but six countries want to go further.

9 May 1950
French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman presents a plan for deeper cooperation. Later, every 9 May is celebrated as ’ Europe Day’.

18 April 1951
Based on the Schuman plan, six countries sign a treaty to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. In this way, none can on its own make the weapons of war to turn against the other, as in the past. The six are Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg."

4247

Spardo:

Buzzer:
Can someone explain what all this miners stuff that happened nearly forty years ago got to do with Brexit, just think we are a bit of course or is that just me, Buzzer

Can’t remember, Buzzer, but someone brought it up a few pages ago and it must have been triggered by the current debate. Check back if you are really interested. :slight_smile:

Well, it seems the miners were first mentioned by Ramone, but since he was replying to a post by…Buzzer…maybe Mr J.D. should get the blame?! :smiley:

ramone:

Buzzer:
Dennis nail on the head right there as food is a secondary consideration in a lot of households and if they can get a food hand out for nought they will while dragging on a ■■■ and swilling a pint or three. Personally I could not smoke when they cost over a tenner a packet even though I did for 40 odd years but not in the last ten. The only plus on food banks is the supermarkets give it free and this saves it going to landfill which would probably cost them more big hearted that they are, cheers Buzzer.

PS. as for the Conservative leadership contest I think any of the candidates who have fiddled expenses should be eliminated, that would shorten the numbers for sure.

A bit like the striking miners who were on big wages bleating about not being able to feed their families sat in clubs with a pint and a cig in their hands

4248

Franglais:
The Schuman Declaration of 1950.
"A peaceful Europe – the beginnings of cooperation
The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace. The six founding countries are Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. The 1950s are dominated by a cold war between east and west. Protests in Hungary against the Communist regime are put down by Soviet tanks in 1956. In 1957, the Treaty of Rome creates the European Economic Community (EEC), or ‘Common Market’.

The historical roots of the European Union lie in the Second World War. Europeans are determined to prevent such killing and destruction from ever happening again. Soon after the war, Europe is split into East and West as the 40-year-long Cold War begins. West European nations create the Council of Europe in 1949. It is a first step towards cooperation between them, but six countries want to go further.

9 May 1950
French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman presents a plan for deeper cooperation. Later, every 9 May is celebrated as ’ Europe Day’.

18 April 1951
Based on the Schuman plan, six countries sign a treaty to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. In this way, none can on its own make the weapons of war to turn against the other, as in the past. The six are Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg."

Oh wait a German by descent says let’s impose more German led Federalism on Europe to fix the problems of wars caused by …Federal aggression.In large part German Federal aggression.

So tell us how much heavy industry did Germany give up and transfer to France/Lux/Italy/Belgium and ‘us’ as part of this stitch up ?.Meanwhile yes we’ve seen the result in a Britain no longer capable of making its own weapons while Germany holds all the cards in that regard.In everything from military aviation to tank design and manufacture.On that note remind us how much of Germany’s engineering manufacturing,steel and coal production capability remains,as opposed to ours. :unamused:

4249

Franglais:
Why would the communist Polish Gov, or Polish union workers, support a UK Tory Gov to break a strike?

For the same reason that Thatcher was happy to ‘deal’ with ( sell the country out to ) Chinese Communism.Follow the money and who gains/ed from this.

Which leaves the question why would supposed Communist Scargill want to save the Brit mining industry and the jobs of its workers in that regard by arguing with Thatcher’s plans ?.Rather than just walk away laughing in 1984 if not before.Having thereby made us a net importer of energy,at the expense of our defence budget for one ?.On that note we’ve seen the collusion between Reagan and Deng Xiaoping in that regard remind us where McGregor came from and under who’s US presidential watch that was.

4250

Buzzer:
Can someone explain what all this miners stuff that happened nearly forty years ago got to do with Brexit, just think we are a bit of course or is that just me, Buzzer

It’s actually all too relevant.If the plan is to just replace our EU trade deficit with an even larger world wide one Brexit will fix nothing.On that note it’s clear that being a net importer of energy ain’t going to work and we can’t have self sufficiency without re opening the mines and rebuilding our mining industry.Especially as North Sea oil and gas resources become ever more depleted.Nor will just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic in the form of more Chinese etc manufacturing imports replacing German ones.

Now awaits the usual Tory bs that it’s all the miners’ own fault because they refused to work a 45 hour week in hellish conditions let alone for minimum wage.Or that we can go on importing German manufactured goods paid for with printed,borrowed cash.Earn’t by storing,moving and flogging Chinese imported crap,or over paid white collar tossers sitting in an office looking at a computer screen,or serving food and drink in a restaurant or bar or McDonalds etc. :unamused:

4251

Franglais:

Spardo:

Buzzer:
Can someone explain what all this miners stuff that happened nearly forty years ago got to do with Brexit, just think we are a bit of course or is that just me, Buzzer

Can’t remember, Buzzer, but someone brought it up a few pages ago and it must have been triggered by the current debate. Check back if you are really interested. :slight_smile:

Well, it seems the miners were first mentioned by Ramone, but since he was replying to a post by…Buzzer…maybe Mr J.D. should get the blame?! :smiley:

ramone:

Buzzer:
Dennis nail on the head right there as food is a secondary consideration in a lot of households and if they can get a food hand out for nought they will while dragging on a ■■■ and swilling a pint or three. Personally I could not smoke when they cost over a tenner a packet even though I did for 40 odd years but not in the last ten. The only plus on food banks is the supermarkets give it free and this saves it going to landfill which would probably cost them more big hearted that they are, cheers Buzzer.

PS. as for the Conservative leadership contest I think any of the candidates who have fiddled expenses should be eliminated, that would shorten the numbers for sure.

A bit like the striking miners who were on big wages bleating about not being able to feed their families sat in clubs with a pint and a cig in their hands

Think you will find I never mention miners or there antics at all until I questioned what relevance it had to Brexit :astonished: :astonished: :astonished: :astonished: Buzzer

4252

Buzzer:
Think you will find I never mention miners or there antics at all until I questioned what relevance it had to Brexit :astonished: :astonished: :astonished: :astonished: Buzzer

Let’s just say that it’s actually got a lot more relevance to Brexit ( the need to return the country to self sufficiency in energy without killing or at least crippling the workforce through over work and coal dust inhalation and the knowledge that they are worth more to the country than a Tory politician or Tory voting white collar worker ).Than your obvious wish for a Brexit based on a return to Victorian ethics.

4253

Carryfast:
Meanwhile yes we’ve seen the result in a Britain no longer capable of making its own weapons while Germany holds all the cards in that regard.In everything from military aviation to tank design and manufacture.:

I think BAe at Warton and Samlesbury might have something to say about plane manufacture, and anyway, neither are much good without armaments. Whilst I don’t know much about tank armaments, the leaders in missile technology are an Anglo French company with a lot of build in the UK.

4254

albion:

Carryfast:
Meanwhile yes we’ve seen the result in a Britain no longer capable of making its own weapons while Germany holds all the cards in that regard.In everything from military aviation to tank design and manufacture.:

I think BAe at Warton and Samlesbury might have something to say about plane manufacture, and anyway, neither are much good without armaments. Whilst I don’t know much about tank armaments, the leaders in missile technology are an Anglo French company with a lot of build in the UK.

At close of play, 1945, some of the more talented members of the losing team got a free transfer to the USA.
I know Albion has doubts about my musical taste…
youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

4255

Franglais:

albion:

Carryfast:
Meanwhile yes we’ve seen the result in a Britain no longer capable of making its own weapons while Germany holds all the cards in that regard.In everything from military aviation to tank design and manufacture.:

I think BAe at Warton and Samlesbury might have something to say about plane manufacture, and anyway, neither are much good without armaments. Whilst I don’t know much about tank armaments, the leaders in missile technology are an Anglo French company with a lot of build in the UK.

At close of play, 1945, some of the more talented members of the losing team got a free transfer to the USA.
I know Albion has doubts about my musical taste…
youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

That was quite funny actually! But yes, worried!

4256

Grumpy Dad:

whiplash:
Good,level, last few posts there lads.
If these two can do it■■?
google.com/search?q=martin+ … ZPJOB4HIqM:

Slightly out of context there mate, a man who gave orders to kill British troops as well as members of the RUC and bombings across the U.K. which killed and injured innocent civilians, who never faced criminal proceedings against his actions but helped instigate the witch hunt of soldiers involved in military action during the troubles, there’s a difference between yesterday’s events and political obligations.

GD,accept what you`re saying,just meant it as a polar opposite,if opposite sides in both our countries history can shake hands,why not after all these years,Germany and Britain.

4257

Grumpy Dad:

Spardo:

Carryfast:
Oh wait Notts area not Yorks,Kent,or Wales.So they got what they wanted a divided working class based on wholesale scabbing and total loss of the solidarity ethic.Remind us how many Notts pits weren’t closed down like all the rest. :unamused:

Yes, the Democratic Notts coalfield, denied a vote by Scargill which was all they asked for, and never got. There were no scabs in Nottinghamshire. And it was Scargill who divided the miners against each other because he daren’t let them vote.

CF not all Notts pits closed several remained for some years after the strike ended, Olleton closed in ‘94, Thoresby in 2014, but these remained open because they were saved by a private venture that took over from the National Coal Board, they were seen as workable viable pits Ollerton was already cross mining the Welbeck and Bevercotes seams.
Bevercotes was always going to close it was the newest mine sunk by the NCB and was a white elephant from day one, the first few tonnes of coal brought up the shaft had been mined at Ollerton and taken across by road lowered into the pit and when Prince Charles pushed the button to open the mine up came the coal, Bevercotes became both a working mine and the training centre for York’s and Notts, having all state of the art equipment, it also remained working during the strike although only running on about 50 - 75% of staff.
If you do your research Carryfast instead of trying to prove a point, you’ll find the strike was illegal, Cortonwood was the first to close in ‘84 which sparked the strike, but the ballot result wasn’t taken from ‘84 but from a ballot taken in ‘81.
Sadly Spardo there were scabs in both York’s and Notts, Welbeck, Shirebrook, Clipstone, Manvers, Thoresby, and Ollerton hence the flying pickets stopping working miners going through the gates, Ollerton saw the first death as a young miner from York’s was killed which only increased the anger of the striking miners, Hood tried to calm the situation but it was Scargill who spoke to them and got them to calm down.
As typical tearaway teens, me and my mates would attend the picket lines with our dads, but after the miner was killed we were no longer allowed to go, which was only a good thing as the police had began using new tactics and at Selby brought in horses along with heavily manning the choke points, I remember my dad stating there must be a grass within the meetings for something like that to happen.
Towards the end of the strike miners were losing hope with Scargill, a year on the picket lines and they had made no progress, each NUM area began to take control and miners were beginning to slowly return to work.

The only thing that Scargill can be blamed for in all this was his relative ignoring of the solidarity shown by the Kent miners.No losing of hope there.Only a justified feeling of having been let down by their I’m all right jack Notts counterparts.Note the difference.

kentonline.co.uk/deal/news/e … er-a54063/

youtube.com/watch?v=uD9wwAAd37w 0.48 - 0.53

‘‘If they close one pit they’d close them all’’.On that note it’s ironic that it was the so called ‘militant’ Yorkshire area which contained the last Pit ( Big K ). Not Notts. :unamused:

The fact is there’s no way that those like Buzzer etc can hide the fact that Thatcher was a remainer who destroyed the country’s strategic industries as part of an agenda of working for foreign interests.While Scargill was only ever working in the interests of the country and its workers.The rest is history with Thatcherites pretending that Thatcher didn’t know what she was doing in the case of her support for EEC membership.Let alone their laughable support of her selling out the country’s industries to the foreign competition because that’s where the bankers had invested our cash and then blaming and scapegoating the workers for it.

The rest is history of a country which has been industrially asset stripped.To the point where it can no longer productively employ its workforce or as a result pay its way and thereby drowning in a sea of debt created by the resulting unsustainable import bill.They couldn’t make it up.

4258

Carryfast:

Franglais:
The Schuman Declaration of 1950.
"A peaceful Europe – the beginnings of cooperation
The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace. The six founding countries are Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. The 1950s are dominated by a cold war between east and west. Protests in Hungary against the Communist regime are put down by Soviet tanks in 1956. In 1957, the Treaty of Rome creates the European Economic Community (EEC), or ‘Common Market’.

The historical roots of the European Union lie in the Second World War. Europeans are determined to prevent such killing and destruction from ever happening again. Soon after the war, Europe is split into East and West as the 40-year-long Cold War begins. West European nations create the Council of Europe in 1949. It is a first step towards cooperation between them, but six countries want to go further.

9 May 1950
French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman presents a plan for deeper cooperation. Later, every 9 May is celebrated as ’ Europe Day’.

18 April 1951
Based on the Schuman plan, six countries sign a treaty to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. In this way, none can on its own make the weapons of war to turn against the other, as in the past. The six are Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg."

Oh wait a German by descent says let’s impose more German led Federalism on Europe to fix the problems of wars caused by …Federal aggression.In large part German Federal aggression.

So tell us how much heavy industry did Germany give up and transfer to France/Lux/Italy/Belgium and ‘us’ as part of this stitch up ?.Meanwhile yes we’ve seen the result in a Britain no longer capable of making its own weapons while Germany holds all the cards in that regard.In everything from military aviation to tank design and manufacture.On that note remind us how much of Germany’s engineering manufacturing,steel and coal production capability remains,as opposed to ours. :unamused:

Schuman was born of a German father and Luxembourg mother, so yes, of half German parentage. He served in the wartime French Government of Paul Reynaud. Doubtless he would not have been looked on with favour. if the Germans were victorious, after siding against them. Why would he have any mission post war to support those he CHOSE to fight against. Nonsense.
“German Federal aggression”■■ So the Nazis were really federalists??
Post WW2 the Germans had surrendered. They had literally given up…everything…
The victors could well have reduced Germany to a starving state. The 75 years of peace in western Europe may partly be due to them not doing that.
It`s often said that the seeds of WW2 were sown in the Treaty of Versailles. Maybe that was one lesson that was learnt?

4259

albion:
That was quite funny actually! But yes, worried!

Hope I dont upset Buzzer by going off piste here, but Im guessing he loves these critters as much as he loves foxes, so…
youtube.com/watch?v=yhuMLpdnOjY
Or an Albion special request? In view of Von Braun…
youtube.com/watch?v=frAEmhqdLFs

That`s me done for tonight.

4260

albion:

Carryfast:
Meanwhile yes we’ve seen the result in a Britain no longer capable of making its own weapons while Germany holds all the cards in that regard.In everything from military aviation to tank design and manufacture.:

I think BAe at Warton and Samlesbury might have something to say about plane manufacture, and anyway, neither are much good without armaments. Whilst I don’t know much about tank armaments, the leaders in missile technology are an Anglo French company with a lot of build in the UK.

The Eurofighter isn’t going to get far with only 34% local content in its engines and 33% of the rest.As for tanks we know that Challenger production has stopped while the Germans happily go on with the Leopard 2.While the Schuman plan obviously doesn’t seem to stop the French from developing and producing its own Raphael fighter and having a proper catapult equipped carrier force.It seems clear that the whole stitch up is all about making us a weakened vassal state which could never fight its way out of the EU if/when the argument of UK secession v EU ( German ) Federal aggression ever comes to push rather than shove.Even if the Brits wanted to.