Eu referendum whats your vote

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
3701

Carryfast:

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Gerrymandering yes you know like the higher electorate of California being able to out vote the electorate of Texas to decide what happens in Texas.

No I’m not a fan of Trump which part of ‘the real deal’ didn’t you understand.As I said if he was the real deal the individual State legislatures would obviously have supremacy over him and congress having provided them with that right and signed himself out of office.While we’d be out of the EU because by now he would also have derecognised UK EU member status and the stinking EU’s right to exist anyway on the same basis.

As for BMW and Merc v Jag you’re the one saying that it’s better to go on importing the former in massive numbers to the point of trashing our own economy

Firstly I apologise for thinking you were a Trump fan.

Gerrymandering concerns boundaries and elections, not the votes of 39m people counting for more than the votes of 28m people. That is the way our democracies work, far from perfect, but there we go.

No where have I said Im happy about our declining manufacturing and industrial base. Years of under investment by industry and flawed gov policy by all parties has been bad for us, of course. Putting taxes on EU cars in a trade war with our biggest trade partners, as you have often suggested, will not fix anything. Youre right we have a problem with our balance of payments, getting what we do export heavily taxed by our customers, and getting our financial services industries disadvantaged by refusing to use our customers legal systems will not benefit us at all.
You`re pointing out problems that exist, yes, but your solutions would only exacerbate the issues, not solve them.

Yes boundaries being used to rig elections.You know like the electorate of California ignoring the California state line/boundary thereby imposing an invalid foreign mandate to decide what happens in Texas.Just like the electorate of France and Germany ignoring Europe’s national borders to decide what happens in Italy or UK or Greece and vice versa.

As for the single market.Which part of we ‘are’ in a massive trade deficit situation within it which can only be helped by us leaving it to the advantage of UK manufacturers,don’t you ( want ) to understand.IE they hit our fewer exports to them while we hit their greater exports to us thereby creating a net advantage to UK manufacturers to take over the higher amount of import sales in the domestic market.

I’ll happily admit, CF, i’m not the sharpest tool in the box, but every time I try to decipher one of your posts, I think to myself . . . that’s 20 min of my life that I’ll never get back.

3702

dexxy57:

Carryfast:
Yes boundaries being used to rig elections.You know like the electorate of California ignoring the California state line/boundary thereby imposing an invalid foreign mandate to decide what happens in Texas.Just like the electorate of France and Germany ignoring Europe’s national borders to decide what happens in Italy or UK or Greece and vice versa.

As for the single market.Which part of we ‘are’ in a massive trade deficit situation within it which can only be helped by us leaving it to the advantage of UK manufacturers,don’t you ( want ) to understand.IE they hit our fewer exports to them while we hit their greater exports to us thereby creating a net advantage to UK manufacturers to take over the higher amount of import sales in the domestic market.

I’ll happily admit, CF, i’m not the sharpest tool in the box, but every time I try to decipher one of your posts, I think to myself . . . that’s 20 min of my life that I’ll never get back.

Only an indoctrinated Federalist fanatic would want to deny the simple fact that dissolving state borders,in order to impose a cross border foreign electoral mandate,ain’t a form of gerrymandering.

Or the fact that 1 we can only win a trade war with Germany if Germany is stupid enough to kick one off and 2 we can’t go on borrowing and printing cash and imposing austerity at home,in a futile attempt to try to fill the black hole,created by that trade deficit,anyway.

3703

Carryfast:
As for the single market.Which part of we ‘are’ in a massive trade deficit situation within it which can only be helped by us leaving it to the advantage of UK manufacturers,don’t you ( want ) to understand.IE they hit our fewer exports to them while we hit their greater exports to us thereby creating a net advantage to UK manufacturers to take over the higher amount of import sales in the domestic market.

Business and manufacturing is a multinational business.
It doesnt scale down to single country size anymore. You may well wish it was otherwise, but it simply isnt so.

Who are the UK manufacturers we can expect to stay, long term, after Brexit?

CF: “we hit their greater exports to us”
So, we impose import duties, and therefore we consumers pay more for goods.

CF: “they hit our fewer exports to them”
So, with tariffs, our exports will cost our EU customers more. That looks like we will sell less then, and earn less.

That isnt shooting ourselves in the foot, its shooting ourselves in both feet!
We earn less and pay more.

The only way that I`ve seen proposed to make that work, is to have the import duties charged by our Gov used to subsidize our own manufacturers. Which would end up with inefficient factories propped up by hand-outs, and managed by politicians, a downward spiral.

If our factories can`t compete in a large, zero-tariff free trade zone, how can they survive in a small area, with fiscal fences all around?

The factories in the UK that are doing well are who? Which ones earn us export euros?
They are the ones who use the UK as a base within Europe. Take us outside Europe and there is no reason for them to remain, and no reason for others to be built here. No business with any brains would build here in a market of 66million, when they could build in a market of 550million?
As I asked “who will stay here, long term?”

You say:
“Which part of we ‘are’ in a massive trade deficit situation within it which can only be helped by us leaving it to the advantage of UK manufacturers,don’t you ( want ) to understand”.

We have a trade deficit, yes, true.
Leaving the EU and imposing tariffs in a trade war will only make it worse.

3704

[As for broiler production the old ckook houses in the UK are pretty crowded here in this country as well, all in the name of cheap super market prices, Buzzer.
[/quote]
Second point first, if I can: if you feel that chickens are badly treated here, or at least should be better treated, then would you not agree that any lowering of standards must be bad?
So, importing ever cheaper chicken meat is bad. After all, high standards with less overcrowding carries a cost.
Import cheap food and what will happen to our own farmers? Can they produce high welfare, high quality, meat if they compete against cheap imports?

Your first point, I agree that many people, although they do have a choice, dont eat well. Giving them the choice of even worse quality food wont do them or anyone any favours will it? I appreciate that you dont like too much government interference, but unfortunately we need regs to stop people buying crap food from unscrupulous producers. Education is a big help, but it seems some still havent got the message about healthy eating.
Many talk about liking higher welfare product with less fertiliser inputs, but end up buying on price alone. Cheaper food isnt an "open and shut" good thing, wouldnt you agree?
[/quote]
If we are so worried about amimal welfare, why do we allow animals to have there throat slit while fully conscious, just a thought. Harvey,or are we not allowed to talk about it.

3705

Franglais:
Business and manufacturing is a multinational business.
It doesnt scale down to single country size anymore. You may well wish it was otherwise, but it simply isnt so.

Who are the UK manufacturers we can expect to stay, long term, after Brexit?

CF: “we hit their greater exports to us”
So, we impose import duties, and therefore we consumers pay more for goods.

CF: “they hit our fewer exports to them”
So, with tariffs, our exports will cost our EU customers more. That looks like we will sell less then, and earn less.

That isnt shooting ourselves in the foot, its shooting ourselves in both feet!
We earn less and pay more.

The only way that I`ve seen proposed to make that work, is to have the import duties charged by our Gov used to subsidize our own manufacturers. Which would end up with inefficient factories propped up by hand-outs, and managed by politicians, a downward spiral.

If our factories can`t compete in a large, zero-tariff free trade zone, how can they survive in a small area, with fiscal fences all around?

The factories in the UK that are doing well are who? Which ones earn us export euros?
They are the ones who use the UK as a base within Europe. Take us outside Europe and there is no reason for them to remain, and no reason for others to be built here. No business with any brains would build here in a market of 66million, when they could build in a market of 550million?
As I asked “who will stay here, long term?”

You say:
“Which part of we ‘are’ in a massive trade deficit situation within it which can only be helped by us leaving it to the advantage of UK manufacturers,don’t you ( want ) to understand”.

We have a trade deficit, yes, true.
Leaving the EU and imposing tariffs in a trade war will only make it worse.

If it’s supposedly ‘multi national’ then why are we talking abut a rich Germany v a poor UK and Greece with Greek and Brit debt and German prosperity.With resulting austerity v prosperity allocated accordingly ?.While it’s bleedin obvious that there is nothing ‘multi national’ about the manufacturing content contained in a BMW or a Merc v British content.So jobs and income for the krauts all paid for by Brit debt.

So we hit their greater exports to us they hit our fewer exports to them.How does that affect British consumers assuming that domestically manufactured products don’t face any tariffs at all.That can only be a win win for the Brit economy in the form of a net increase in production and with it jobs here and a net cut in production for our German competitors.

As for imposing tariff barriers won’t fix a trade deficit.It seems strange how you conveniently said exactly the opposite in the case of the EU imposing trade barriers/tariffs on US imports to maintain Germany’s healthy trade surplus.

Your EU Federalist bs really is getting beyond desperate and tiresome.As I said if you and your stinking illegal proto quasi Superstate want to create trouble with us,for the crime of secession and not wanting to be ruled by ■■■■ Juncker and co,then bring it on.While any sensible government acting in the national interest would by now have called this agenda what it is a case of foreign takeover and treason against the state and bring the full force of the military down on it.Starting with the summary imprisonment of all pro EU MP’s.

3706

HRS:
If we are so worried about amimal welfare, why do we allow animals to have there throat slit while fully conscious, just a thought. Harvey,or are we not allowed to talk about it.

We are Harvey, and it is wrong. Leaving the EU is not going to change that, but staying in might one day do so. However EU law requires stunning but allows countries a derogation on religious grounds. Some countries, mainly Nordic but also Slovenia, insist on it.

The UK has strict rules that nevertheless do allow religious slaughter without stunning. So leaving the EU is less likely to change that, whereas staying in the EU may, just may, under pressure from the Nordics, do so.

Some of the same religions that you are nervous to talk about, Jewish and Moslem, also allow/insist on, mutilation of little boys. Presumably without stunning :open_mouth: , (Pause to dab watering eyes), and only Iceland (not in EU) proposes to ban it for non medical reasons. This has given encouragement to similar efforts to ban it in the UK. Hotly resisted from the usual quarters.

3707

Spardo:

HRS:
If we are so worried about amimal welfare, why do we allow animals to have there throat slit while fully conscious, just a thought. Harvey,or are we not allowed to talk about it.

We are Harvey, and it is wrong. Leaving the EU is not going to change that, but staying in might one day do so. However EU law requires stunning but allows countries a derogation on religious grounds. Some countries, mainly Nordic but also Slovenia, insist on it.

The UK has strict rules that nevertheless do allow religious slaughter without stunning. So leaving the EU is less likely to change that, whereas staying in the EU may, just may, under pressure from the Nordics, do so.

Yeah right.Let me guess there’s also EU rules which state that non Halal can’t be described as Halal.

tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant … kholm.html

3708

Franglais:
When we vote for a political party in the General Elections we vote on a published manifesto. We vote on what those parties promise to deliver. If they dont deliver on those promises we get the opportunity to vote them out again. At the referendum the official leave campaign promised: easily negotiable trade deals, £350m cash, sunshine and happiness for all, etc etc. Well , we voted leave, and have not seen the slightest trace of any of those promises. We can now see just how hollow and imaginary most of them were. We know Cameron better now, and wouldnt trust him again, but why trust the likes of Davies, Johnston and Gove?
There isnt a right/wrong option here, there isnt a simple fix to our current problems, but seems to me that leaving the EU, is even worse than staying.
Sticking by a mistaken choice is not being determined, brave and hardy.
It`s cutting off your nose to spite your face, and looks like being unable to accept being human, and admit to making errors.

It’s a strange one Franglais. There was a free and fair democratic vote. The People spoke. The People decided and Cameron ended up as a frightened rabbit caught in the headlights.

Theresa says she’s committed to that vote. And so she should be. It was a fair and free referendum. We were sold so much BS at the time, although, to be fair, they nearly swayed me with the ‘sunshine and happiness’.

We very rarely have referendums in the UK, and I think that’s good. Binary questions like IN/OUT are never as simple as they seem. Nobody seems to think through the long term consequences. The Brexit referendum caught a snapshot of the mood of the people. Brexit was an obvious scapegoat for all that was wrong with the country at the time. Farage, Gove and Boris played a blinder with their scare stories about Turkey and the NHS.

But, a vote’s a vote. 17m got off their arses and said Leave.

Politicians can’t really ignore that. They most certainly can’t admit to being human and making errors, it would be political suicide. (Clegg? Student Fees?)

While Brexit may or may not happen, the Government has a moral obligation to see it through. Brexit will hurt, certainly in the short term, and it will be regretted. But what’s the alternative for the Government? Admit they were wrong and face annihilation at the next election? Call me cynical, but with MP’s of any party, there’s only one priority, and it isn’t the good of the country, it’s their survival on the gravy train.

Incidentally, by all reports and surveys, the areas that will be hardest hit after Brexit will be the areas that voted most heavily for Brexit.

The Tory’s have ■■■■■■ up on an unimaginable scale, and yet they’re still ahead in the polls. No, I don’t understand it either.

3709

dexxy57:
The Tory’s have [zb] up on an unimaginable scale, and yet they’re still ahead in the polls. No, I don’t understand it either.

Ok, I get that Corbyn isn’t exactly a viable alternative, but with the most incompetent and inept Government in history getting worse by the day, Labour seem to be doing everything in their power to back away and avoid stepping up. How were things allowed to get this bad?

3710

dexxy57:
The Brexit referendum caught a snapshot of the mood of the people. Brexit was an obvious scapegoat for all that was wrong with the country at the time. Farage, Gove and Boris played a blinder with their scare stories about Turkey and the NHS.

But, a vote’s a vote. 17m got off their arses and said Leave.

Most of your post makes sense to me, but let`s examine the bit quoted?

What if an insurance salesman comes into the house of your aged parents and sells them a policy?
He plays a blinder and gets them to sign up for a policy that doesnt suit their needs, but gets him a nice bonus. Do you say "well they signed, theyre stuck with it"? Or do you look at the lies he told to get the deal done and get them to cancel it?
Is a signature based on lies and half truths valid? Would that be a valid contract if tested in court, or would the salesman be locked up for fraud?
Should democracy be based on who is the best group of liars? What lies down that path?

3711

youtube.com/watch?v=yGL-XJPu … e=youtu.be

3712

Franglais:

dexxy57:
The Brexit referendum caught a snapshot of the mood of the people. Brexit was an obvious scapegoat for all that was wrong with the country at the time. Farage, Gove and Boris played a blinder with their scare stories about Turkey and the NHS.

But, a vote’s a vote. 17m got off their arses and said Leave.

Most of your post makes sense to me, but let`s examine the bit quoted?

What if an insurance salesman comes into the house of your aged parents and sells them a policy?
He plays a blinder and gets them to sign up for a policy that doesnt suit their needs, but gets him a nice bonus. Do you say "well they signed, theyre stuck with it"? Or do you look at the lies he told to get the deal done and get them to cancel it?
Is a signature based on lies and half truths valid? Would that be a valid contract if tested in court, or would the salesman be locked up for fraud?
Should democracy be based on who is the best group of liars? What lies down that path?

The answers are no, and, years, if not generations, of under performance globally and an even greater loss of home grown entrepreneurial activity.

If the Tories are going to be anihilated, they may as well annihilate themselves honourably and revoque the hastliy thought out and inappropriate decision to leave the EU. They will reap the benefits in the future.

3713

Franglais:

dexxy57:
The Brexit referendum caught a snapshot of the mood of the people. Brexit was an obvious scapegoat for all that was wrong with the country at the time. Farage, Gove and Boris played a blinder with their scare stories about Turkey and the NHS.

But, a vote’s a vote. 17m got off their arses and said Leave.

Most of your post makes sense to me, but let`s examine the bit quoted?

What if an insurance salesman comes into the house of your aged parents and sells them a policy?
He plays a blinder and gets them to sign up for a policy that doesnt suit their needs, but gets him a nice bonus. Do you say "well they signed, theyre stuck with it"? Or do you look at the lies he told to get the deal done and get them to cancel it?
Is a signature based on lies and half truths valid? Would that be a valid contract if tested in court, or would the salesman be locked up for fraud?
Should democracy be based on who is the best group of liars? What lies down that path?

Leave it out.Imagine if a local councillor convinced your aged parents to sign over the ownership of their house to one of his mates.That’s what your mate Heath did except he handed over a whole country.Yes he should have been locked up for treason in this case.

3714

Franglais:

dexxy57:
The Brexit referendum caught a snapshot of the mood of the people. Brexit was an obvious scapegoat for all that was wrong with the country at the time. Farage, Gove and Boris played a blinder with their scare stories about Turkey and the NHS.

But, a vote’s a vote. 17m got off their arses and said Leave.

Most of your post makes sense to me, but let`s examine the bit quoted?

What if an insurance salesman comes into the house of your aged parents and sells them a policy?
He plays a blinder and gets them to sign up for a policy that doesnt suit their needs, but gets him a nice bonus. Do you say "well they signed, theyre stuck with it"? Or do you look at the lies he told to get the deal done and get them to cancel it?
Is a signature based on lies and half truths valid? Would that be a valid contract if tested in court, or would the salesman be locked up for fraud?
Should democracy be based on who is the best group of liars? What lies down that path?

A national referendum involving an electorate of 45m isn’t exactly on the same scale as a shyster insurance salesman stitching up your parents. I get your point though.

As for ‘Should democracy be based on who is the best group of liars?’ I think you answered your own question there.

3715

Spardo:
If the Tories are going to be anihilated, they may as well annihilate themselves honourably and revoque the hastliy thought out and inappropriate decision to leave the EU. They will reap the benefits in the future.

Aye, of course they should. The fly in the ointment is ‘honour’.

3716

Look ■■■■57 before you go slinging the manure in my direction and you being so well up on monetary matters concerning immigrants coming to the Ramsgate shoreline why don’t you enlighten me and Ramone what total handouts these no hopers do get including the cost of all housing, as far as I am concerned I would not give them not a penny piece just dump them on an island off Scotland with no facilities because that is what they are used to and let them get on with it. Coming here must be like winning the lottery, buy an inflatable boat ride in Calais or stow away on the back of a truck and land here on our shores and they are a surefire winners of the jackpot, now stick that up your kilt and furnish us with what you think the real cost is to the UK TAX payer before you criticize my figures. And while you are at it have a word with the leader of the SNP over dinner tonight to see what uninhabited islands are available for these unwanted intruders to this country, Buzzer.

3717

Buzzer:
Look ■■■■57 before you go slinging the manure in my direction and you being so well up on monetary matters concerning immigrants coming to the Ramsgate shoreline why don’t you enlighten me and Ramone what total handouts these no hopers do get including the cost of all housing, as far as I am concerned I would not give them not a penny piece just dump them on an island off Scotland with no facilities because that is what they are used to and let them get on with it. Coming here must be like winning the lottery, buy an inflatable boat ride in Calais or stow away on the back of a truck and land here on our shores and they are a surefire winners of the jackpot, now stick that up your kilt and furnish us with what you think the real cost is to the UK TAX payer before you criticize my figures. And while you are at it have a word with the leader of the SNP over dinner tonight to see what uninhabited islands are available for these unwanted intruders to this country, Buzzer.

The immigrants are very different from each other, there are those who have come here legally over the years, willing and able to work and have worked and contributed (more than they have taken out) to the economy of the country. They will still come after Brexit, only difference is most of them may not be European but Asian and African. Somebody’s got to help you with this great upsurge in manufacturing and farming that Brexiteers so fondly predict for the glorious new paradise of ‘independent’ Britain…

Then there are those who are fleeing from death and destruction and vicious regimes to find help. The asylum seekers. They are not allowed to work and, until, assuming that Britain is a decent society which does not want to turn them back to die, or worse, the country must be given time to assess the validities of their claims. These are the people you speak of presumably, that have to be given assistance while their cases are decided. Your figures, previously given for their keep are wrong and I have given you the correct ones, pages ago, but you persist in your propaganda. Why is that? Are you really such an unfeeling and evil person that you make yourself out to be, that you would want to send them to their deaths?

But again, whether Brexit happens or not, it isn’t going to affect the flow of refugees, illegal or otherwise, they will continue to come. So who will you blame for them then?

3718

Spardo:

Buzzer:
Look ■■■■57 before you go slinging the manure in my direction and you being so well up on monetary matters concerning immigrants coming to the Ramsgate shoreline why don’t you enlighten me and Ramone what total handouts these no hopers do get including the cost of all housing, as far as I am concerned I would not give them not a penny piece just dump them on an island off Scotland with no facilities because that is what they are used to and let them get on with it. Coming here must be like winning the lottery, buy an inflatable boat ride in Calais or stow away on the back of a truck and land here on our shores and they are a surefire winners of the jackpot, now stick that up your kilt and furnish us with what you think the real cost is to the UK TAX payer before you criticize my figures. And while you are at it have a word with the leader of the SNP over dinner tonight to see what uninhabited islands are available for these unwanted intruders to this country, Buzzer.

The immigrants are very different from each other, there are those who have come here legally over the years, willing and able to work and have worked and contributed (more than they have taken out) to the economy of the country. They will still come after Brexit, only difference is most of them may not be European but Asian and African. Somebody’s got to help you with this great upsurge in manufacturing and farming that Brexiteers so fondly predict for the glorious new paradise of ‘independent’ Britain…

Then there are those who are fleeing from death and destruction and vicious regimes to find help. The asylum seekers. They are not allowed to work and, until, assuming that Britain is a decent society which does not want to turn them back to die, or worse, the country must be given time to assess the validities of their claims. These are the people you speak of presumably, that have to be given assistance while their cases are decided. Your figures, previously given for their keep are wrong and I have given you the correct ones, pages ago, but you persist in your propaganda. Why is that? Are you really such an unfeeling and evil person that you make yourself out to be, that you would want to send them to their deaths?

But again, whether Brexit happens or not, it isn’t going to affect the flow of refugees, illegal or otherwise, they will continue to come. So who will you blame for them then?

So tell me oh wise man why are they not settled in your adopted home country France or albeit any of the other countries they have travelled through to get to our shores, they would have avoided death as you put it had they settled as soon as they were away from there homelands but I think the majority of these immigrants are purely economic persons and unfortunately for us we must be giving them far more than any other host country else they would have settled there without the risk or extra cost of getting over the channel to Blighty, Buzzer

3719

Buzzer:
So tell me oh wise man why are they not settled in your adopted home country France or albeit any of the other countries they have travelled through to get to our shores, they would have avoided death as you put it had they settled as soon as they were away from there homelands but I think the majority of these immigrants are purely economic persons and unfortunately for us we must be giving them far more than any other host country else they would have settled there without the risk or extra cost of getting over the channel to Blighty, Buzzer

Well I will, oh unwise man, even though you have been told before (you’re good at ignoring answers and then asking the same questions again), for the vast majority who travel through France, France was not their first port of entry and, as France is part of Schengen, they have free travel across all of France’s land borders.

The reason most of those that land up on British shores land there because most of them have English as a 2nd language, not French. Pretty obvious really and more or less a result of the glorious empire you Brexiteers hanker for.

The ones who are from the previous glorious, and equally unjustifiable French empire, speak French, and France is where they stay.

As for those who don’t stop in Italy, Greece or Turkey, I don’t know. But I wonder if it could be that they don’t speak Italian, Greek or Turkish. Hmm?

Clear?

3720

Spardo:

Buzzer:
So tell me oh wise man why are they not settled in your adopted home country France or albeit any of the other countries they have travelled through to get to our shores, they would have avoided death as you put it had they settled as soon as they were away from there homelands but I think the majority of these immigrants are purely economic persons and unfortunately for us we must be giving them far more than any other host country else they would have settled there without the risk or extra cost of getting over the channel to Blighty, Buzzer

Well I will, oh unwise man, even though you have been told before (you’re good at ignoring answers and then asking the same questions again), for the vast majority who travel through France, France was not their first port of entry and, as France is part of Schengen, they have free travel across all of France’s land borders.

The reason most of those that land up on British shores land there because most of them have English as a 2nd language, not French. Pretty obvious really and more or less a result of the glorious empire you Brexiteers hanker for.

The ones who are from the previous glorious, and equally unjustifiable French empire, speak French, and France is where they stay.

As for those who don’t stop in Italy, Greece or Turkey, I don’t know. But I wonder if it could be that they don’t speak Italian, Greek or Turkish. Hmm?

Clear?

:smiley: :smiley: