You’re right about any extension being counter-productive. The feeling I’ve picked up from various industry leaders during TV and radio interviews is that they could cope with Brexit if only they knew what form it will take. The uncertainty is costing billions and our PM is not helping by keeping her ‘plans’ to herself. I don’t believe she’ll get anything worthwhile from Brussels, they’ve made their position clear many times - “no more negotiations”. So for me, she should present them with a set of “clean break” requirements, no strings attached, and make it very clear that we are out at the end of March.
Buzzer:
Just supposing that in the end the wish of the 17.4 million in this country get there way and we do actually leave the EU with no deal on the 29th of May and this brings down the corrupt EU and its remaining members just how will it pan out. For sure if we do get out at the given time you can forget all this ■■■■■■■■ about miles of trucks waiting for customs I don’t think this would happen as I believe all the countries we do trade with now in Europe will want to continue, if in business you just cant stop the trade and the financial flow because the money is the life blood of any business, stop that and every thing comes to a grinding halt.
Will be interesting to see what does happen in the end when TM comes back from Brussels with just a few tweaks on the backstop and she gets rejected in Whitehall again, thinking about it I am hoping this is the case in the end and we get free providing there is absolutely no extension to the deadline to leave. Any longer period would just exacerbate the situation and if we have had nearly 3 years and not come up with an answer what point would there be in elongating the discussions, cheers Buzzer.
Firstly if the EU is brought down it might well evolve into what it should have been from the start a Confederation of Sovereign Nation States not a Federal Superstate.
youtube.com/watch?v=CNh3312dTtA 4.15 - 4.30
As for May’s charade it’s obvious that parliament is just playing along to make it look good from the point of view of the Leave vote then they’ll show their true colours by voting it through.IE still tied to EU rule but no more UKIP MEP’s what’s not to like from the point of view of the EU Federalists on both sides of the Channel.
The current (4th) series of
“Brexit: A Guide For The Perplexed” is on BBC R4 again. Excellent.
Being in 15min bites it shouldn’t tax the teenagers with trouble maintaining attention spans.
Obviously being on the BBC it won’t be available to those who operate censorship of this source.
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gingerfold:
Franglais:
gingerfold:
^^^^Knowledge of the Food Industry. Since 1968, two very major producers of a wide portfolio of products, where my job took me to several EU and non-EU countries and one very major UK haulage company, where I’m still employed. My current job gives me daily contact with customers ranging from millers, growers, and food processers. Yes, three employers but a multitude of companies within the food industry. So I know a bit about the industry. Perhaps you might care to outline your own experience of it and if it’s superior to mine then I’ll give way to your knowledge, but never ever accuse me of subjectivity.I fully concede that you may have a daily interaction with the food industries much deeper and wider than mine.
But I doubt it is wider and deeper than that of the ONS, FullFact or any other legitimate number crunchers.
I’m not setting up a particular set of numbers, I’m agreeing with your previous post that we should look deeper at properly sourced stats.Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
I agree that is the problem Franglais, so much of what is out there from various sources is open to different interpretation. What happens from time to time in the food industry still surprises me. A few years ago I was astounded when containers of onions from New Zealand started to arrive at the consolidation hub. Surely an instance of the transport costs being far greater than the value of the product, especially as then we were doing seasonal bulk haulage of onions from field to storage, a distance of 12 miles from our consolidation hub. And the locally grown onions were every bit as strong as those from NZ.
Of the 40% imported it’s worth noting that is calculated on net value, not tonnage, or food/nutritional value etc.
No one is saying that 40% of all separate groups are imported. (n.b. Carryfast).
Clearly 100% of oranges are imported and it’s no shock that most grass fed meats are home produced.
Can we produce more in the UK?
Should we?
For all sorts of reasons I would say “Yes” to both.
But I don’t think that using that to justify a bad decision (Brexit) is a valid argument. Making a bad choice and then seeking reasons to live with it isn’t honest.
That last bit isn’t particularity directed at GingerFold.
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Franglais:
gingerfold:
Franglais:
gingerfold:
^^^^Knowledge of the Food Industry. Since 1968, two very major producers of a wide portfolio of products, where my job took me to several EU and non-EU countries and one very major UK haulage company, where I’m still employed. My current job gives me daily contact with customers ranging from millers, growers, and food processers. Yes, three employers but a multitude of companies within the food industry. So I know a bit about the industry. Perhaps you might care to outline your own experience of it and if it’s superior to mine then I’ll give way to your knowledge, but never ever accuse me of subjectivity.I fully concede that you may have a daily interaction with the food industries much deeper and wider than mine.
But I doubt it is wider and deeper than that of the ONS, FullFact or any other legitimate number crunchers.
I’m not setting up a particular set of numbers, I’m agreeing with your previous post that we should look deeper at properly sourced stats.Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
I agree that is the problem Franglais, so much of what is out there from various sources is open to different interpretation. What happens from time to time in the food industry still surprises me. A few years ago I was astounded when containers of onions from New Zealand started to arrive at the consolidation hub. Surely an instance of the transport costs being far greater than the value of the product, especially as then we were doing seasonal bulk haulage of onions from field to storage, a distance of 12 miles from our consolidation hub. And the locally grown onions were every bit as strong as those from NZ.
Of the 40% imported it’s worth noting that is calculated on net value, not tonnage, or food/nutritional value etc.
No one is saying that 40% of all separate groups are imported. (n.b. Carryfast).
Clearly 100% of oranges are imported and it’s no shock that most grass fed meats are home produced.Can we produce more in the UK?
Should we?
For all sorts of reasons I would say “Yes” to both.
But I don’t think that using that to justify a bad decision (Brexit) is a valid argument. Making a bad choice and then seeking reasons to live with it isn’t honest.That last bit isn’t particularity directed at GingerFold.
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Yes, I knew that the 40% figure was net value, but again not all from the EU.
Obviously oranges and other citrus fruits are imported, and we pack all the citrus fruit, and grapes, for a very major supermarket chain. Depending on the time of year and where the fruit is sourced from - Spain, or Greece, or Israel, or South Africa, or California, or Florida, and how it arrives at our hub, then the pack house can employ any number between 300 and 600 people in a 24 hour period. The Spain and Greece sourced produce comes by road, and virtually all the trucks delivering are from the country of origin. Likewise, salad produce from Spain and Portugal that is the main source at this time of the year. It goes to the parent company a few miles from our hub.
Much of the beef we deliver is Irish sourced but packaged over here , obviously the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar doesn’t realise this or he wouldn’t be so confrontational in his language. His farmers will lose a lot of income in a no deal Brexit scenario. Eire has more to lose, proportionally, than any other EU food supplier to the UK. Eire exports of food and drink to the UK in 2017 was a value of 3.7 billion Euros. Total value of Irish exports to the UK in the same year 16 billion Euros, pharmaceuticals being a very important sector. The UK is Eire’s second largest export market after the USA. Source: The BBC, so it must be correct and unbiased.
For the record I voted Leave, after a lot of due consideration. My decision, in the final analysis, was based on the conclusion I reached that the EU in its present format is unsustainable and that it will implode one day, for too many reasons to list here. Since the referendum in 2016 my view has strengthened and if another referendum were to take place I would vote Leave again.
Juddian:
About time Pat Condell had a say
I expect better from you, young sir!
There he is saying:
“ALL remainers think ALL we leavers are thick”.
Complaining about sweeping generalisations, in the full throws of… a sweeping generalisation…
Brexiteers come in all sorts of shapes, sizes and ‘leanings’.
Same with Rema(o)iners.
Whilst pointing out the folly of one set of prejudices, isn’t he re-doubling them in the opposite direction?
Said Franglais, ticking his copy of the Graudian under his arm and climbing up the spiral stair to his ivory tower…
Whoops, or was that him climbing up the steps to his cab with a copy of Jazz Weekly?
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"Much of the beef we deliver is Irish sourced but packaged over here , obviously the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar doesn’t realise this or he wouldn’t be so confrontational in his language. His farmers will lose a lot of income in a no deal Brexit scenario. Eire has more to lose, proportionally, than any other EU food supplier to the UK. Eire exports of food and drink to the UK in 2017 was a value of 3.7 billion Euros. Total value of Irish exports to the UK in the same year 16 billion Euros, pharmaceuticals being a very important sector… .
[/quote]
"
Gingerfold.
Just to address that point for the moment, if I can.
How, given we agree that Eire is probably about to be greatly impacted by Brexit, should the Taoisceach react?
You say “confrontationally”?
There they are about to be affected by events they have no effective control over. (Jeez, our own Prime Minister doesn’t have much control over what’s happening!) So being a wee bit upset, and sitting on his hands wouldn’t really be an appropriate response IMHO.
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I heard the best and most workable solution to the “Irish” Border problem from a very practical German politician yesterday ! He more-or-less said that the easiest way to solve this balls aching problem was to pull back the EU Border to Mainland Europe and cut Eire out of equation completely then it would be easy for the EU to control their territory. Southern Ireland could still remain part of the EU but outside of the Customs Union ! Great idea I say so what’s the problem ? No hard Border, No problem ! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
I heard the best and most workable solution to the “Irish” Border problem from a very practical German politician yesterday ! He more-or-less said that the easiest way to solve this balls aching problem was to pull back the EU Border to Mainland Europe and cut Eire out of equation completely then it would be easy for the EU to control their territory. Southern Ireland could still remain part of the EU but outside of the Customs Union ! Great idea I say so what’s the problem ? No hard Border, No problem ! Cheers Bewick.
Probably getting worried about pushing the legality of a so called EU ‘border’ between Eire an NI when the EU isn’t even a declared de Jure state let alone a de Facto one.With any such declaration obviously being the final straw for European Nationalists like AfD,Fidez and FN.While when that legality is shown to be invalid it then obviously becomes invalid at all so called EU ‘border’ crossings.The reailty is that there is absolutely no need for any so called hard border between EU member state Eire and non EU member UK.Because 1 the EU isn’t a country and therefore has no right to define any border as part of that regardless of any trade agreements and 2 therefore the established border protocols,between Eire and UK,apply just as they did before we both joined the EU.At least until the point when the EU officially declares de Jure Federal nation state status which would be interesting.
The result being a panic fudge in the form of the laughable idea that being an EU member state can be mutually exclusive with the EU customs union which is an oxymoron.
Bewick:
I heard the best and most workable solution to the “Irish” Border problem from a very practical German politician yesterday ! He more-or-less said that the easiest way to solve this balls aching problem was to pull back the EU Border to Mainland Europe and cut Eire out of equation completely then it would be easy for the EU to control their territory. Southern Ireland could still remain part of the EU but outside of the Customs Union ! Great idea I say so what’s the problem ? No hard Border, No problem ! Cheers Bewick.
Have Eire in the EU but not the Custom’s Union?
Was this German politician’s name Henning Wehn?
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Franglais:
"Much of the beef we deliver is Irish sourced but packaged over here , obviously the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar doesn’t realise this or he wouldn’t be so confrontational in his language. His farmers will lose a lot of income in a no deal Brexit scenario. Eire has more to lose, proportionally, than any other EU food supplier to the UK. Eire exports of food and drink to the UK in 2017 was a value of 3.7 billion Euros. Total value of Irish exports to the UK in the same year 16 billion Euros, pharmaceuticals being a very important sector… .
"
Gingerfold.
Just to address that point for the moment, if I can.
How, given we agree that Eire is probably about to be greatly impacted by Brexit, should the Taoisceach react?
You say “confrontationally”?
There they are about to be affected by events they have no effective control over. (Jeez, our own Prime Minister doesn’t have much control over what’s happening!) So being a wee bit upset, and sitting on his hands wouldn’t really be an appropriate response IMHO.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
[/quote]
I would counter your response by saying that it is a collective responsibility, going back years, of all the politicians of ALL the EU member states, and its unelected officials, that because of their intransigence and the political project that is the EU, that has brought about the current situation. If, and it’s a big if, the EU had been governed better then the situation where one of its biggest members measured by GDP voted to leave would never have arisen. So for you to infer that the situation is not of his own making is not how I view it. We have Macron and Varadkar, both of them political newcomers spouting off about matters that shows them to be out of their depth, as is Theresa May I hasten to add.
gingerfold:
I would counter your response by saying that it is a collective responsibility, going back years, of all the politicians of ALL the EU member states, and its unelected officials, that because of their intransigence and the political project that is the EU, that has brought about the current situation. If, and it’s a big if, the EU had been governed better then the situation where one of its biggest members measured by GDP voted to leave would never have arisen. So for you to infer that the situation is not of his own making is not how I view it. We have Macron and Varadkar, both of them political newcomers spouting off about matters that shows them to be out of their depth, as is Theresa May I hasten to add.
The arguments between those wanting a Federal Europe v those wanting to maintain a Europe of sovereign Nation States seem no different now than they were when we joined.Macron and May just being two of the latest former lot and Batten among others taking the place of Powell/Shore/Benn etc here.While ironically Europe itself has actually become more prepared to think along those lines now than it was in 1973.As shown by the comments made by the leader of the AfD calling for reform along Confederation of Sovereign States lines and away from the Federal superstate model.
As for Eire a nation founded on Secession from the UK Federation at the cost of loads of lives now wanting to be ruled by the EU Federation instead they couldn’t make it up.
Carryfast:
gingerfold:
I would counter your response by saying that it is a collective responsibility, going back years, of all the politicians of ALL the EU member states, and its unelected officials, that because of their intransigence and the political project that is the EU, that has brought about the current situation. If, and it’s a big if, the EU had been governed better then the situation where one of its biggest members measured by GDP voted to leave would never have arisen. So for you to infer that the situation is not of his own making is not how I view it. We have Macron and Varadkar, both of them political newcomers spouting off about matters that shows them to be out of their depth, as is Theresa May I hasten to add.The arguments between those wanting a Federal Europe v those wanting to maintain a Europe of sovereign Nation States seem no different now than they were when we joined.Macron and May just being two of the latest former lot and Batten among others taking the place of Powell/Shore/Benn etc here.While ironically Europe itself has actually become more prepared to think along those lines now than it was in 1973.As shown by the comments made by the leader of the AfD calling for reform along Confederation of Sovereign States lines and away from the Federal superstate model.
As for Eire a nation founded on Secession from the UK Federation at the cost of loads of lives now wanting to be ruled by the EU Federation instead they couldn’t make it up.
So whats the difference in being ruled by one state (UK) or another (EU), Carryfast?
We also were ruled by the British for years,not by consent,and rightly or wrongly took back control of our own affairs.As you alluded to, we all see where that went at the start of the 20th century,and then the 70s/80s.
As was mentioned by me earlier in this thread,history coming back to bite ones bum.
You seem to suggest that an EU that a country (Ireland),has opted to partake in,has less rights to do that,than a country which decides to secede (Ireland) from a UK Federation.
Gingerfold.
Not a fan of Varadkar myself personally,but hardly think newcomer would describe him.Hes a TD (Irish MP) 12/14 years now. Disagree in your statement of his confrontational language.Dont even know of the language youre referring to,but,if some of the clowns on the London side were able to come up with some coherent arguments and agreements,this whole sorry saga could have been signed,sealed and delivered by now.Instead of to-ing and fro-ing to Brussels,we agree on this.No,sorry,we dont,yes we do etc.etc. ad nauseum.
All the while agreeing with your point of the loss to the Irish economy,it will be MASSIVE.
For a start Varadkar is no more than a puppet, if you look closely during interviews you can see the EU’s arm up his back operating him.
This mornings news stated that the ferry company Café Crossings has had its contract to run ferries ripped up, as they had no ferries to start with they never should have been awarded a contract, come to think about it there was no need for any more ships across the channel as that’s not going to be the problem if it does arise, the holdups would be caused by unnecessary customs formalities not shortage of ferry space.
Also I see the that the new Brexit party has been given the all clear so if TM starts buggering about with the leave date and we get involved with the EU elections look out the Conservatives as there are about 100 of there MP’s about to leave and join the new Brexit party.
Waiting for your reactions, Buzzer.
Farage’s new baby will, (by design or even deliberately?), split the leave vote, effectively making removal of anti democratic fake tories more unlikely, leaving the status quo more likely to continue.
The time is not right to have petty arguments between oversized egos, who supposedly have the best interests of the UK at heart, there is an enemy within this country who wish the Kingdom to be handed over lock stock and barrel to the German led reich that is the EU, we need a bit of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy thinking and cooperation now.
edit, thinking about this more, the tories, both fake and genuine, must be ■■■■■■ themselves laughing at Farage and this self inflicted splitting of the alternative vote
whiplash:
Carryfast:
As for Eire a nation founded on Secession from the UK Federation at the cost of loads of lives now wanting to be ruled by the EU Federation instead they couldn’t make it up.So whats the difference in being ruled by one state (UK) or another (EU), Carryfast?
We also were ruled by the British for years,not by consent,and rightly or wrongly took back control of our own affairs.As you alluded to, we all see where that went at the start of the 20th century,and then the 70s/80s.
As was mentioned by me earlier in this thread,history coming back to bite ones bum.
You seem to suggest that an EU that a country (Ireland),has opted to partake in,has less rights to do that,than a country which decides to secede (Ireland) from a UK Federation.
There is no bleedin difference which was my point and yes I agree the idea of pro Federal UK and anti Federalist EU is an oxymoron.Which,like the EU,could be sorted out along sovereign Confederal lines.
As for the Irish being stupid enough to to free the country from foreign rule at the cost of loads of lives including my Great Uncle’s,no the non country of the EU doesn’t have the right to usurp the established border protocols and treaties existing between the countries of Eire and UK.Just as the stupid Continuation factions led by the idiot Develara didn’t have the right to force the Brit enclave in the North into the Republic and which isn’t what Collins agreed to and he paid the price for it.Which actually defeats your own argument in that Nationalism is also all about respecting the right of self determination of others.
While as we know remainers aren’t all about being a ‘part’ of Europe in a club of independent sovereign states they are all about big dictatorial centralised government along the lines of an EUSSR.That’s the real issue here and it won’t be sorted out by going along with the pointless idea of Brexit because it can only be fixed by dealing with the cause by helping the AfD etc to smash the illegal invalid proto EU Federation.Not trying to isolate ourselves from it.Which is as illogical as thinking that we could have isolated ourselves from Hitler’s plans for the German Federation to go one better in the form of the 3rd Reich.
Although ironically to be fair Ireland certainly made a good job of doing just that for its own survival.Unlike its stupid actions of throwing its lot in with the EU 4th Reich now.
Juddian:
Farage’s new baby will, (by design or even deliberately?), split the leave vote, effectively making removal of anti democratic fake tories more unlikely, leaving the status quo more likely to continue.The time is not right to have petty arguments between oversized egos, who supposedly have the best interests of the UK at heart, there is an enemy within this country who wish the Kingdom to be handed over lock stock and barrel to the German led reich that is the EU, we need a bit of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy thinking and cooperation now.
edit, thinking about this more, the tories, both fake and genuine, must be ■■■■■■ themselves laughing at Farage and this self inflicted splitting of the alternative vote
It really is time to forget the dead duck of the battle for britain and now move on to smashing the EU from within.Which I guess now makes me a remainer and the controlled opposition led by people like Farage moot and irrelevant seeing far better leadership in the AfD and FN with people like Weidel and Le Pen than the pathetic attempts of no hoper Brit politicians like Farage.In which Brexiteers will soon be calling on the help of those leaders to not only help free the country but also Europe as a whole from the plans which May and her quisling Federalist rabble,including Farage’s followers,have planned for us.
The confrontational language, statement really, by Leo Varadkar I was referring to was when he was heard to whisper that he agreed with Tusk’s statement about Brexit politicians going to hell. I accept that he may be an “experienced” politician in Eire, but he isn’t experienced on the EU or world stage.