ERF 'European' (1975)

[erf-ngc-european]

Theoretical question here, that witnesses like Jerry Cooke, Ron Hawkins or Ken Broster might just be able to answer so I’m popping this request on both the ERF 1975 thread and the Trans Arabia thread.

I’ve been trying to fathom out whatever became of KDM 460N. It was an ERF demo NGC and famously took part in the 1975 Euro Test that Pat Kennett conducted for TRUCK magazine. After that all trace it seems to disappear.

Now, we know that ERF supplied six new NGCs with ■■■■■■■ NTC 290s and 13-sp Fuller boxes to Trans Arabia. They were fleet numbered TA 105 to 110. They were the only new NGCs they had, all the rest being second-hand.

However, we also know that one of them – TA 107 – had been an ERF demo unit that had been accident damaged on its way to a show.

Can anyone remember if Trans Arabia 107 had a 9-speed ‘box rather than a 13-sp ‘box; and a 335 ■■■■■■■ rather than a 290? If so, it just may be that it was KDM 460N that crashed on its way to the show. Of course, it’s possible that when it was rebuilt it was given a 13-sp ‘box. And in any case a 9-sp box wouldn’t prove it was KDM itself! However, it might set in chain some memories among the NGC army of contributors.

[kenb]

ERF-NGC-European:
I found this observation by John ‘Saviem’ on an early page of this thread, which I completely overlooked when writing the books. It’s an interesting take on the relationship twixt dealerships and operators with regard to ERF at the time the NGC was produced:

The point about attaching dealerships to operators was one of the fundamental reasons for ERFs demise in the UK. You have your new ERF, and you take it into the local dealer…but the workshop is full of “his” vehicles…next thing he is after “your” traffic! The “big” UK dealers, Richard Read, S Jones, Beeches, haulage based companies, did as much to loose custom as create it! At first it is an attractive option they will buy your product, parts, vehicles for sub contractors etc, but later it turns sour, as they are limited in attracting customers to their premises and business. A pattern clearly shown across many marques of vehicle across all of Europe.

Quite thought-provoking!

Your observations over dealers being hauliers spot on. The big argument being engines!! The hauliers wanting Gardner, the dealers keeping them for their own fleets and forcing ■■■■■■■ onto customers.
Jones built a full dealership with state of the art workshops but the cost, borrowings etc drowned them.
Ken

[erf-ngc-european]

Thanks Ken!

With regard to the KDM question here’s dear old Cookie’s email response to my question:

Hi Rowena I hope that you are keeping well we are all ok here about 107 she was the same spec as the other 5 ■■■■■■■ 290 and 13 speed she could not have been KDM460N because the one that was damaged was not registered at the time it was on its way from S Jones Aldridge yard to the Post House hotel just off junction 7 M6 at Great Barr and collided with a other vehicle on Bosty lane Aldridge it was recovered to S Jones Garages and later on trailored back to Sandbach the show that it was going to was in mid to late 1975 fleet number 107 sold have been delivered to S Jones in early 1976 and the whole fleet were operational in October that year I hope this helps you cheers Jerry

[deanb]

ERF-NGC-European:
Thanks Ken!

With regard to the KDM question here’s dear old Cookie’s email response to my question:

Hi Rowena I hope that you are keeping well we are all ok here about 107 she was the same spec as the other 5 ■■■■■■■ 290 and 13 speed she could not have been KDM460N because the one that was damaged was not registered at the time it was on its way from S Jones Aldridge yard to the Post House hotel just off junction 7 M6 at Great Barr and collided with a other vehicle on Bosty lane Aldridge it was recovered to S Jones Garages and later on trailored back to Sandbach the show that it was going to was in mid to late 1975 fleet number 107 sold have been delivered to S Jones in early 1976 and the whole fleet were operational in October that year I hope this helps you cheers Jerry

Re KDM460N.

I wonder if that was the one that one of Beresford’s drivers was delivering to Southampton docks for export when it was
written off in a accident at Southampton. If you remember the driver that mentioned that to me was a kid at the time
travelling with his dad who drove for Beresford’s. He told me that Ken Beresford was very friendly with the owner of ERF
and they would supply drivers to deliver new trucks to the docks when requested. At the time he told me his dad had taken
photos but he never found them unfortunately.

I dont know much about the registration system so if it had been sold to an overseas customer would it have been
de registered ■■

[erf-ngc-european]

DEANB:

ERF-NGC-European:
Thanks Ken!

With regard to the KDM question here’s dear old Cookie’s email response to my question:

Hi Rowena I hope that you are keeping well we are all ok here about 107 she was the same spec as the other 5 ■■■■■■■ 290 and 13 speed she could not have been KDM460N because the one that was damaged was not registered at the time it was on its way from S Jones Aldridge yard to the Post House hotel just off junction 7 M6 at Great Barr and collided with a other vehicle on Bosty lane Aldridge it was recovered to S Jones Garages and later on trailored back to Sandbach the show that it was going to was in mid to late 1975 fleet number 107 sold have been delivered to S Jones in early 1976 and the whole fleet were operational in October that year I hope this helps you cheers Jerry

Re KDM460N.

I wonder if that was the one that one of Beresford’s drivers was delivering to Southampton docks for export when it was
written off in a accident at Southampton. If you remember the driver that mentioned that to me was a kid at the time
travelling with his dad who drove for Beresford’s. He told me that Ken Beresford was very friendly with the owner of ERF
and they would supply drivers to deliver new trucks to the docks when requested. At the time he told me his dad had taken
photos but he never found them unfortunately.

I dont know much about the registration system so if it had been sold to an overseas customer would it have been
de registered ■■

I think that’s a different accident Dean. The one Cookie mentions is the same one that became TA 107.

[erf-ngc-european]

Someone ages ago suggested that more than 91 NGCs were built. The ERF archives only show 91 however.

We have to remember that although my register shows 95 NGCs, there is still potentially an awful lot of slack in the findings. Consider the following:

No. 38. The French unit 2758W92 was a demonstrator with Laiteries Preval of Vire, so it probably doubles with another one we’ve already logged.

No. 56. Likewise: another French demonstrator (red and white) which haven’t yet matched to a subsequent operator.

No. 77. This was a French drawbar outfit sighted by a pretty reliable transport historian / photographer, but there are no pictures to confirm this.

No. 78. Ditto. My reliance on pictorial evidence cannot be over-emphasised, because so many ‘reliable’ sightings have turned out to be 5MWs.

No. 80. The Wagner, Jemet Gossiliers of Belgium is again only rumoured.

No. 81. This remains a mystery, though a concrete one! The Dutch advert showing considerable detail about this unit, including its olive green livery, still doesn’t tell us who operated it. We thought it might be Prooi but both Rene Postma and Wobbe Reitsma spoke to Prooi and they are adamant that Prooi only ever operated a B-series ERF.

No. 82. We know about the Willemstein / Damco G+G unit but this 2nd one remains unconfirmed.

No. 85. The picture we have of this shows a drawbar outfit still in primer at the factory. It may well be one of the drawbar outfits we already know about.

No. 86. The Bahrain unit remains another very tenuous and inconclusive sighting. As we’ve discussed before, it may have been one of the ‘internals’ vehicles we know about or another 5MW (we know about one there!).

No. 88. The 2nd GL Baker NGC in Van Ommeran livery still lacks solid evidence. We still only have the sighting.

No. 89. The Earls Court demo unit is only cited separately because we don’t know which operator it went to. I subsumed other demonstrators into the register under their operators’ names.

No. 90. The third CAMEL unit still remains only a possibility because the report in Motor Transport suggested that there were more than the two we have pictures of.

No. 91. Again, the prototype or pre-production unit we have plenty of pictures of, almost certainly went to an operator we already know about (probably Van Steenbergen).

No. 92. Roland Dussaillant of Voiron is reported to have had this one but we have no further evidence than a reasonably reliable witness (which is why I included it of course).

No. 93. Ditto Transport Roland of Garbez, 62 Bourbon.

That’s fourteen units! So potentially a lot of slack like I say! There may well be quite a few more out there yet before we reach the real 91 mark.

So keep rummaging chaps!

[erf-continental]

First of all…compliments for your ongoing dedication Rowena…refresh me on #91 and perhaps I can bring up more…

A-J

[erf-ngc-european]

ERF-Continental:
First of all…compliments for your ongoing dedication Rowena…refresh me on #91 and perhaps I can bring up more…

A-J

Thank you. Here’s No. 91:

[erf-continental]

Unsure of the exact path this ERF-demo went…was it the first NGC for Van Steenbergen with the missing third wiper?

I’ll keep digging…the old generation of Van Steenbergen can be asked unfortunately

[erf-continental]

On #91 I only have some hold with Van Steenbergen’ first NGC, same Lucas-indicators, mind what was in the shelves
then with thes bulby ones, but the bumper has a lower part which I can’t rediscover in the fleet. Perhaps easy to
replace but why the bumper had that special lower detail?

Attached also a ‘mystery’ that rings some bells with a Vermeulen’ NGC…different colours of “E-R-F” in the grille.

[erf-ngc-european]

No. 91 would almost certainly have received a production front grille shortly after entering service. This would have had the standardised indicators, an access flap for the water and later on the grab handles. The roof vent was added on. In other words, 91 was very likely disguised as it entered service.

[erf-ngc-european]

Also (@ A-J ^^^), your picture of 373KJ59 is another example of a vehicle that may double up somewhere. It is believed to have finished up on a fairground, which may account for its gaily painted ERF letters. As you say, Vermeulen did this with their ERFs but it ought to be remembered that it was very commonplace in Holland in the '70s / '80s to paint ERF, MAN, DAF, BMC, GMC, AEC letters in the red, white and blue of the Dutch flag. Other countries did the same to a lesser extent, I think.

The thick plottens!

[vwvanman0]

Reading the 1974 earls court show edition cm and came across this, guess you have seen it. But if nothing else it lift the thread up.

Happy hunting

Steve

[erf-ngc-european]

vwvanman0:
01

Reading the 1974 earls court show edition cm and came across this, guess you have seen it. But if nothing else it lift the thread up.

Happy hunting

Steve

Good find vanman ; but yes, it’s on here . Don’t give up!

[erf-ngc-european]

I’ve just found this little folder of pics I meant to put on here a long time ago. They show the French Colin NGC being recovered to UK for preservation / restoration.

[vwvanman0]

The way the steps appear to be breaking company with the cab suggests that needs a lot more work than first appears.

Have you any idea how its progressing? will be such a rare machine when its done.

Steve

[erf-ngc-european]

vwvanman0:
The way the steps appear to be breaking company with the cab suggests that needs a lot more work than first appears.

Have you any idea how its progressing? will be such a rare machine when its done.

Steve

We’ve had no news for a long time. I would imagine some progress would have been made during the lockdowns.

[erf-ngc-european]

Meanwhile, I’ve found some more pics of PKC kits on the internet. I wonder if the 2nd one is destined to become the Slappendel unit, which is the only yellow one with a white roof I know of. It was 12-97-FB (No. 30 on the register), new to Groenenboom then to Slappendel and finally to Trans Arabia as fleet #139. Either that or the picture is showing an orange one slightly over-exposed and it’s destined to become a Vermeulen unit like the top one !

[erf-continental]

Good details, even on the demo with the lower (bridged) bumper…and as said all there was on the shelves was used
even on the continent where CDB used West-coast-mirrors on some Van Steenbergen’ NGC.

[deanb]

ERF-Continental:
First of all…compliments for your ongoing dedication Rowena…refresh me on #91 and perhaps I can bring up more…

A-J

Be nice to see the pic of the Thibaut draw-bar you said you had ?