vernonbish777:
Haha. I know nothing about government transport policy - and I’ve no idea what rates were in the early 20th century.
I really can’t add anything to the debate unless you give me an idea of how much you think that shippers are going to be looking to pay for a delivery within 10 miles of the railhead - then I can give you a sensible answer.
Blimey I must be the only one who’s noticed that government transport policy is to switch as much freight as possible from road to rail using punitive road fuel taxation and truck operation regs such as not allowing the use of LHV’s if any operator chooses to use them.Which not surprisingly is hitting the long distance sector hardest while,so far,allowing the local intermodal sector to operate,relatively,more economically viably.
I thought that the statement why,in the real world,would any customer want to pay more ( per mile ) for the last 10 miles of a freight journey than they would ( per mile ) for the whole 200 mile+ journey.
In other words the customer,eventually,won’t want to pay even enough to make the job worth bothering with for the average haulage company or owner driver operation.Based on that if the customer wants the freight delivered/collected from/to the rail head to/from the delivery/collection address then it’ll be the customer,or an in house rail company road transport operation,that will,eventually,probably be more likely to shift it in that trading environment.Which is why there is/was such a thing as a large scale long haul sector of the road transport industry.Unlike the days of the early 20th century. 
The customer does not pay for individual legs of a job, they either pay through to door or to Quay where it gets converted to Carrier (or MOH) either way the Line has to cover the delivery within the rate the customer pays, if its not enough they quote more and the customer either pays or goes MOH with a haulier who wants to work for less to gain volume
Local rates start around £150 and that won’t change, it’s not in the Lines interest to put hauliers out of business by paying low rates all that does is reduce competition and rates will rise with supply & demand
stringy:
The customer does not pay for individual legs of a job, they either pay through to door or to Quay where it gets converted to Carrier (or MOH) either way the Line has to cover the delivery within the rate the customer pays, if its not enough they quote more and the customer either pays or goes MOH with a haulier who wants to work for less to gain volume
Local rates start around £150 and that won’t change, it’s not in the Lines interest to put hauliers out of business by paying low rates all that does is reduce competition and rates will rise with supply & demand
I think you’ll find that through to door or quay rate is based the sum of all the individual legs put together and it’s only a matter of time until the customers twig that they’re paying over £10 per mile for the short haul road leg/s of intermodal journeys and start asking why when they only pay a lot less for a long haul all road freight journey.
Customers want the cheapest freight rates and they come in 2 flavours, to door or pier, that is a fact. How the Line covers their inland legs is of no concern to the customers as long as it arrives on time and it doesn’t cost them anymore
Remember most customers are forwarders who swap Lines for as little as $10
My information is based on intimate knowledge, not assumption
stringy:
Customers want the cheapest freight rates and they come in 2 flavours, to door or pier, that is a fact. How the Line covers their inland legs is of no concern to the customers as long as it arrives on time and it doesn’t cost them anymore
Remember most customers are forwarders who swap Lines for as little as $10
My information is based on intimate knowledge, not assumption
I think that would actually reinforce my case that they won’t accept the situation of £10 per mile road legs of intermodal freight journeys being factored into that overall freight journey price in the long term just as soon as they realise what they are actually paying and how the rates are made up.As it stands intermodal freight transport is an unrealistically priced ( and taxed ) operation based on smoke and mirrors in order to create a shift in the transport market to benefit the rail freight interests.The true costs to both customers followed by the road transport industry will become clearer in the longer term.The issue can only set the road transport industry back almost 100 years.
I admit defeat, reality doesn’t stand a hope in this conversation!!
The art is to not use fact, knowledge, knowhow or experience . . . then you’ll fit in with ease.
Stan
Haha yes that’s apparent - make it up as you go along with no grounds for your argument and you can go on forever.
I’ll vote with Stringy here and STFU now as pointless typing is pointless.
Mr Carryfast I’ll concede defeat at this point - I’d happily explain it in person to you as, like Stringy, I have intimate knowledge and understanding of how the box business works when it comes to haulage tariffs versus door to door freight rates. To be fair, it’s pretty unfathomable to those of us that do it every day so it’s certainly un-explainable trying to do it on here !
vernonbish777:
Haha yes that’s apparent - make it up as you go along with no grounds for your argument and you can go on forever.
I’ll vote with Stringy here and STFU now as pointless typing is pointless.
Mr Carryfast I’ll concede defeat at this point - I’d happily explain it in person to you as, like Stringy, I have intimate knowledge and understanding of how the box business works when it comes to haulage tariffs versus door to door freight rates. To be fair, it’s pretty unfathomable to those of us that do it every day so it’s certainly un-explainable trying to do it on here !
The fact remains that no surprise,in this case at least,one container haulage firm seems to have given up on long haul container haulage,at least out of Southampton,based on inability to compete with rail and just decided to concentrate on local work 
.Which would fit my idea of what’s going on.
In addition to which even your own view seemed to confirm at least some/most of that here . 
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96022&start=90#p1404820
Which just leaves a disagreement about what will happen to the short haul intermodal road transport sector in the long term.Which is probably all that will remain at least in the case of container haulage.
Carryfast:
I thought that the statement why,in the real world,would any customer want to pay more ( per mile ) for the last 10 miles of a freight journey than they would ( per mile ) for the whole 200 mile+ journey.
Try flying from New York to Heathrow, you will pay about £280, then another 95 quid to get into Central or East London.
Oh and tell the train driver he has to be on site at 6am, and you don’t know what time you will start unloading him 
Lorries are flexible, trains are not, that is how haulage will survive, as it has done for many many years.
Wheel Nut:
Carryfast:
I thought that the statement why,in the real world,would any customer want to pay more ( per mile ) for the last 10 miles of a freight journey than they would ( per mile ) for the whole 200 mile+ journey.
Try flying from New York to Heathrow, you will pay about £280, then another 95 quid to get into Central or East London.
Oh and tell the train driver he has to be on site at 6am, and you don’t know what time you will start unloading him
Lorries are flexible, trains are not, that is how haulage will survive, as it has done for many many years.
In this case it’s all about the flexibility of road transport only being allowed to be used to the advantage of the railfreight industry not the road transport industry.Although having said that rail freight terminals aren’t going to want to have boxes stacked up because they’ve arrived to early.Or trains held up because they’ve arrived too late if the customer didn’t know what time to start loading. 
Which just leaves the question as to wether those customers will then be prepared to pay that rip off mileage rate at the end of their journey from NY to London or just arrange for someone they know to collect them from the airport assuming we’re talking about a homeward run.
Which in this case would be a bit like the own account operation which my old grandad worked for hauling ‘intermodal’ loads,the last time that the road transport industry was in a similar type of position,of not having large scale access to the long haul transport market and in which mileage rates for short haul work just reflected that fact making many jobs unviable and not worth doing for most haulage firms with any sense.Hence the fight by the road transport industry for it’s share of the long haul transport market which is when the road transport industry turned from being mugs,just there to be taken advantage of by the rail freight industry,into an enemy needing to be kept in check by the big business rail freight interests and their cronies in government.
How do you know if it is a rip off rate? What are you refering to, trains, or trucks?
The trouble with arguing with idiots is that they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
In a nutshell then, there is over capacity in the market and it would follow that there will be more closures of transport operations/businesses until such times that there are too few to cope with the current demand.
It would then follow that as demand overtakes supply again it will create new business opportunities for those wishing to try start up or growth for those that rode out the last downturn!
And so the cycle continues. Rates are what the market will stand.
mickyblue:
How do you know if it is a rip off rate? What are you refering to, trains, or trucks?
The whole intermodal journey rate,which obviously has to reflect the under utilisation of the truck/s,used for the short haul road leg/s of the intermodal freight journey.Compared to the price which could/would/should be charged in the case of a free transport market in which trains and trucks both have access to the long distance sector of the freight market on a level playing field.Which in this case would mean trucks being allowed to use red diesel and LHV’s being allowed for any operator who chooses to use them.
In which case are you saying that an intermodal freight journey between Southampton and Manchester for example could be done more cheaply by intermodal than it could just by road .While if not ( very likely ) why not .As I’ve said it’s my bet that the over priced short haul mileage rate required for the road leg at the end of the freight journey would make intermodal unviable in that case and the rail freight operators know it.
fredthered:
In a nutshell then, there is over capacity in the market and it would follow that there will be more closures of transport operations/businesses until such times that there are too few to cope with the current demand.
It would then follow that as demand overtakes supply again it will create new business opportunities for those wishing to try start up or growth for those that rode out the last downturn!
And so the cycle continues. Rates are what the market will stand.
How can demand ever overtake supply in a trading environment whereby government policy is to remove thousands of tonne/miles of road freight journeys by switching them to rail.At least without an equivalent cut in the uk road transport fleet.At which point the situation will remain static at best while most of those remaining ‘business opportunities’ will involve work ( and rates ) which not many,with any sense,would want to work with. 
Might as well lock this topic. I think Curryfart has ruined it and is on one with blah blah blah post’s
