stringy:
What your are referring to is MOH (merchant own haulage) that tends to only be on imports because exports are heavily subsidised by the Lines and very few would go MOH for exportsBoth Kellogg’s and Guinness are Carrier not MOH and the haulier connection is usually via the Forwarder (I.e. DHL)
Your dead rite in what your saying mate, but I know it happened at these two particular company’s (I’ll leave it to you imagination what went on behind closed doors!)
Thereal-john:
Also in addition to the above no one shipping line service guiness Kellogg’s etc, so they wernt upsetting the shipping line too much.
They use different shipping lines for different destinations, nothing to do with upsetting anyone.
Thereal-john:
As for me talking bollox I’ve forgoton more about this job than you’ll ever know both as a driver and an owener.
You may well have forgotten more but it doesn’t make what you said right.
Thereal-john:
It wasn’t to long ago when you run a window cleaning business into the ground, I suggest you stick to things you know instead of coming across as all knowledgable about a subject you know very little about mike.
I think you’re confusing me with Kevin, or maybe Andy (ex JMD) ? Check your source again, my names Mike.
If you know so much, how come Elite (who are still trading) are looking to increase the amount of vehicles kept at the Barton dock operating centre ?
Mike-C:
Thereal-john:
Also in addition to the above no one shipping line service guiness Kellogg’s etc, so they wernt upsetting the shipping line too much.They use different shipping lines for different destinations, nothing to do with upsetting anyone.
Thereal-john:
As for me talking bollox I’ve forgoton more about this job than you’ll ever know both as a driver and an owener.You may well have forgotten more but it doesn’t make what you said right.
Thereal-john:
It wasn’t to long ago when you run a window cleaning business into the ground, I suggest you stick to things you know instead of coming across as all knowledgable about a subject you know very little about mike.Mike banjo you are, elite will survive this but they will come out of this a lot smaller
I think you’re confusing me with Kevin, or maybe Andy (ex JMD) ? Check your source again, my names Mike.If you know so much, how come Elite (who are still trading) are looking to increase the amount of vehicles kept at the Barton dock operating centre ?
Well mike, or if you prefere “banjo mick” I know exactly who you are, and as for elite they will survive this albeit on a smaller scale, and as for increasing their fleet at Manchester, they still have a strong customer base, but you will find them concentrating on the more lucritave jobs eg ACL, OOCL, at the same time cutting back on their overheads less office staff, outsourcing certain office based services, but at no point did I say they will cease trading, just change or die, a bit like JMD had too a few years back.
So stick to the facts, and don’t pass comments on things you know absolutely nothing about.
Since the gauge clearance went through the number of rail services from the ports down south have increased, they also have more capacity to move HC containers now they’re not restricted by the number of low-slung carriages. A good share of import containers are HC’s which mostly went by road as they were too big for the train.
Shipping lines contract for allocated space to get better rail rates, therefore they will always now move boxes by rail as opposed to road from the southern ports. Any Southampton or Felixstowe based haulier will tell you that compared to 18 months or so ago they rarely go as far up north as they used to. Because the shipping lines have to fulfill their commitment of boxes per train they will even rail empty boxes north to cover exports from the north as they will otherwise have to pay for unused rail slots. So that’s another job that southern hauliers will be losing out on.
What’s happened with Elite is nothing that other hauliers with port based trucks aren’t experiencing in that the volume of work has slacked considerably over the past 12 months or so because of the improved rail capacity. What’s happened at Elite is that their hand has been forced for whatever reason into reducing their fleets at the ports. It’s nothing that other port based operators aren’t looking at but Elite have had to do it in a more drastic way and a lot sooner than they had probably planned to do.
Anyone with an understanding of operating costs will know that it’s better doing 3 local jobs out of a railhead than a round trip Manchester out of Felixstowe dock.
Container volumes as a whole are down at the moment and have been erratic over the past 4 months or so.
There’s other container hauliers who are going down the restructuring route themselves at present.
vernonbish777:
Since the gauge clearance went through the number of rail services from the ports down south have increased, they also have more capacity to move HC containers now they’re not restricted by the number of low-slung carriages. A good share of import containers are HC’s which mostly went by road as they were too big for the train.Shipping lines contract for allocated space to get better rail rates, therefore they will always now move boxes by rail as opposed to road from the southern ports. Any Southampton or Felixstowe based haulier will tell you that compared to 18 months or so ago they rarely go as far up north as they used to. Because the shipping lines have to fulfill their commitment of boxes per train they will even rail empty boxes north to cover exports from the north as they will otherwise have to pay for unused rail slots. So that’s another job that southern hauliers will be losing out on.
What’s happened with Elite is nothing that other hauliers with port based trucks aren’t experiencing in that the volume of work has slacked considerably over the past 12 months or so because of the improved rail capacity. What’s happened at Elite is that their hand has been forced for whatever reason into reducing their fleets at the ports. It’s nothing that other port based operators aren’t looking at but Elite have had to do it in a more drastic way and a lot sooner than they had probably planned to do.
Anyone with an understanding of operating costs will know that it’s better doing 3 local jobs out of a railhead than a round trip Manchester out of Felixstowe dock.
Container volumes as a whole are down at the moment and have been erratic over the past 4 months or so.
There’s other container hauliers who are going down the restructuring route themselves at present.
All of which seems to confirm what I’ve been saying.Which just leaves the issue of the sustainability of those local job rates as rail increases it’s stranglehold on the distance work.The fact is no one is going to keep paying an unrealistic rate to shift freight over short distances between railhead and customer and it’s only a matter of time until short haul rates are based on exactly the same mileage based rate as the longer distance work.
Which leaves the road transport industry with the choice of distance work which is unviable because of government transport policy and short haul work without enough miles in the job to make it worthwhile.Especially if/when rates in that short haul sector eventually end up being based on miles run,not some bs job rate to make local intermodal zb look more attractive than it really is.Obviously so that the road transport industry keeps in head in the sand,while the rail freight industry get on with the job of slaughtering to road transport industry and put the two modes back to the situation that they both were in the early 20th century.Probably with the difference that the rail freight industry will be even relatively stronger,by comparison with road,than it was then. 
Carryfast - I don’t think local rates will ever go to a miles run basis - I appreciate your concerns but even the most ruthless freight forwarders and shipping lines realise that there has to be something in it for the haulier - local railhead work is costed more on a “time” basis than distance, although distance does play some part in determining the rate. Having said that, our worst enemies are our own competitors - I know of one container haulier who has quoted local delivery ex railhead at less than £100 per box “because it’s close to their yard”. Don’t worry too much about the lines and the forwarders - be more afraid of our own “brother” hauliers !!!
There’s not just the cost issue though CF. It’s a big environmental ■■■■■ as well 
Some customers insist it’s used to boost green credentials. Regardless of whether or not it’s reliable or cost effective
vernonbish777:
Carryfast - I don’t think local rates will ever go to a miles run basis - I appreciate your concerns but even the most ruthless freight forwarders and shipping lines realise that there has to be something in it for the haulier - local railhead work is costed more on a “time” basis than distance, although distance does play some part in determining the rate. Having said that, our worst enemies are our own competitors - I know of one container haulier who has quoted local delivery ex railhead at less than £100 per box “because it’s close to their yard”. Don’t worry too much about the lines and the forwarders - be more afraid of our own “brother” hauliers !!!
Sorry but as someone who grew up with stories of the road v rail intermodal transport fight of the early 20th century and having a grandftaher who was on the road transport side in that trust me there’s no way that anyone is going to keep paying over the odds just to run stuff up the road from the rail head after the railfreight industry has taken it’s cut out of the job.You can bet that sooner or later the job and rates will be based on just the miles actually run because without that realism there’s no way that intermodal can be made to pay from the point of view of the customer.
As for ‘brother’ hauliers that’s always been the case.But the common link is that cut throat competition between road transport operators is inevitable but that came ‘after’ having to sort out the problems of road transport being denied access to the long haul sector of the transport industry and in that it’s the rail freight industry that is the real enemy of the road transport industry and always will be.
billybigrig:
There’s not just the cost issue though CF. It’s a big environmental ■■■■■ as wellSome customers insist it’s used to boost green credentials.
A bit like Prescott’s support of Chinese industry based on coal fired energy while the fat zb tells ours that it has to run on wind power. 
Away from the highly entertaining overview of the strategy(or lack of it) of road/rail container transport…
a bit of news about Elite - if seems for now they will be around, 99% of creditors have accepted the terms of the CVA (37p in the £ )
commercialmotor.com/latest-n … t-services
Mr Carryfast - you need to substantiate what you mean by being paid by distance - how much are you suggesting that a job within 10 miles of the railhead would pay ?
vernonbish777:
Mr Carryfast - you need to substantiate what you mean by being paid by distance - how much are you suggesting that a job within 10 miles of the railhead would pay ?
Probably about as much,in real terms,per tonne mile,as the job paid in the early 20th century.As I heard it no haulier with any sense would touch the work which is why my Grandad worked for an own account operation.While the road transport industry got on with the hard won fight,which it eventually started winning,against the rail freight interests for a decent slice of the long haul freight market. 
So why do you think that a customer would want to pay any different ( per mile ),in the real world,to haul a load the last 10 miles of a freight journey,by road,than the full 200 + just to compensate the haulier for the lost utilisation of the wagon v it’s operating costs.Don’t forget in a transport market that’s going to obviously be increasingly saturated by local running wagons because the long haul market is increasingly effectively denied to them by government transport policy.
Haha. I know nothing about government transport policy - and I’ve no idea what rates were in the early 20th century.
I really can’t add anything to the debate unless you give me an idea of how much you think that shippers are going to be looking to pay for a delivery within 10 miles of the railhead - then I can give you a sensible answer.
vernonbish777:
Mr Carryfast - you need to substantiate what you mean by being paid by distance - how much are you suggesting that a job within 10 miles of the railhead would pay ?
£10, obviously. 
And a Mars bar… 
Thereal-john:
Well mike, or if you prefere “banjo mick” I know exactly who you are, and as for elite they will survive this albeit on a smaller scale, and as for increasing their fleet at Manchester, they still have a strong customer base, but you will find them concentrating on the more lucritave jobs eg ACL, OOCL, at the same time cutting back on their overheads less office staff, outsourcing certain office based services, but at no point did I say they will cease trading, just change or die, a bit like JMD had too a few years back.
So stick to the facts, and don’t pass comments on things you know absolutely nothing about.
It might have escaped your notice, but i’m the only one who doesn’t know the reason for their current situation.
You said their undercutting strategy at Kellogs/Guiness is responsible for it, when infact they closed two southern port depots and have kept servicing the northern based stuff. Now that makes no sense.
Not only that you know their strategy for going ahead !!! If i didn’t know better i’d think you where on their board of directors knowing that much info. If you are, tell them carryfast has unearthed a government plan to reduce the haulage industry and use rail !!!
vernonbish777:
Mr Carryfast - you need to substantiate what you mean by being paid by distance - how much are you saying that a job within 10 miles of the railhead would pay ?
£130
Stan
Mike c- the Guinness and Kellogg’s thing were just two examples of their business practice, if they were to survive they needed to down size and regroup, which they have done, and being a Manchester based company I guess it makes sence to cull the southern depots. Now mike you can read into this what you want, and I could tell a lot more but an Internet forum isn’t the time or place. So in future if someone posts somthing that you have no knowledge of or don’t understand please don’t insult the o.p. by describing their post as bollox, this is not just distrispectfull from you as a adjudicator of this site, but it shows you up for what you are.
Rant over
Rikki-UK:
Away from the highly entertaining overview of the strategy(or lack of it) of road/rail container transport…a bit of news about Elite - if seems for now they will be around, 99% of creditors have accepted the terms of the CVA (37p in the £ )
commercialmotor.com/latest-n … t-services
It is understood that the largest creditor is HMRC, which is owed some £1.5m.
Glad i still got my wage slips from when i worked for them, to prove tax and ni was taken.
Yes its happened to me before with another company, tax and ni was taken at source and was not paid, and i was being chased for it, until i showed proof it had been taken.