Elite went skint due to the fact rates in container haulage are crap and a quiet Christmas period probably was the icing on the cake. Nothing to do with trains.
What’s a subbie on boxes getting now per mile £1.50 or so? Bet even the big boys on for shipping lines ain’t on more than a couple of quid a mile.
It’s all a numbers game no real profit.
kr79:
Elite went skint due to the fact rates in container haulage are crap and a quiet Christmas period probably was the icing on the cake. Nothing to do with trains.
What’s a subbie on boxes getting now per mile £1.50 or so? Bet even the big boys on for shipping lines ain’t on more than a couple of quid a mile.
It’s all a numbers game no real profit.
The ‘actual’ reason as reported was not enough work to keep the fleet employed.However it’s obvious that it’s not an issue of low rates it’s all about government policy of high road fuel taxes which make road transport economically less attractive from both the customer’s point of view in regards to cost and the haulier’s in regards to profit margins.Which explains why there doesn’t seem to be any issues concerning rail freight investment and capacity needing to be reduced ( it’s actually the total opposite ) regardless of any so called ‘quiet christmas’.
kr79:
Elite went skint due to the fact rates in container haulage are crap and a quiet Christmas period probably was the icing on the cake. Nothing to do with trains.
What’s a subbie on boxes getting now per mile £1.50 or so? Bet even the big boys on for shipping lines ain’t on more than a couple of quid a mile.
It’s all a numbers game no real profit.
If the rates out of Felixstowe went up to £1.50 a mile, Spanky would do away with his lollipop cabs and buy proper trucks for his drivers. 
been reading about various rates on recent posts and been sat here with my abacus and at £1.80 per loaded mile it’s still a backload rate!, just worked out that to go to felixtowe from our yard (IRO) 200 miles =£360 @ 8 to the gallon =£127.28
now that means if i have to come home as i dont have/cant get a backload i am left with £105.33 for 9 hrs driving on a good run and thats before any finance, tax, ins,repairs,wear and tear, parking,trailer hire!
the last time i went with a jcb956 forktruck i charged £650 and came straight back empty and was parked up at 2.30 pm, mind i cant get them loads every day!lol
i know a lad with a sprinter van that was charging £1.50 per loaded mile 2 years ago, no taco and sod all diesel when you compare to a 44 ton unit, never mind no trailer hire/parking charges
If the government announced they was scrapping fuel duty from the 1st Jan 2013 by the 6th rates would be cut acordingly.
Good Luck to the Elite lads in Southampton! Their are other hauliers working out of Southampton! 
Container haulage in the UK is very different to most other countries, apart from a little dabble with Freightliner not much goes on the choo choo, whereas everywhere else the train takes the strain.
In the US and Canada, probably Australia too, the train does the bulk of the work and the local deliveries are undertaken by drayage outfits, the only exception being reefer boxes (in Canada) these run from the meat plants in Manitoba all the way to Vancouver (1500miles) on the back of a lorry (or truck, they don’t have lorries 
) I think this is to get the chopped up piggies to their destination in Asia asap and there the train cannot beat a couple of drivers in a lorry that each do a 750mile shift in 24hrs.
The trucks they use on containers over here are a mess, they have to be seen to be believed, in the US they’re even worse as the shipping lines supply the skellies and most of these are still running around on cross ply tyres ffs
Carryfast:
Bewick:
In all but a few,isolated,seams of intense heavy movements of containers,fuel oils,coal and aggregates the UK isn’t large enough for the economic movement of goods by rail,period! Never mind all the “Bollox” spouted by the “enviromentalists” the distances are not viable,unlike the USA for instance,3000 miles from coast to coast! London to Glasgow (small population in Scotland!) 400 miles,what a joke,rail will never be viable in the UK especially with a truck journey at each end of the operation.Mass movement of passengers by rail YES,but to move freight------ build some decent connecting motorways between the large conerbations,now that would really create some impetus to the lagging economy ! Cheers Bewick.The fact is transport of freight ( not bulk aggregates etc ) by road beats rail wherever it is even over those North American distances.The history of the road transport industry shows that.What we’re seeing now is a deliberate government anti competitive policy of targeted fuel taxation and unrealistic regulation of the road transport industry in order to make rail transport more attractive than it would posibly otherwise be.The whole thing is dressed up as some bs ‘environmental’ issue when the reality is it’s all about the big business rail freight sector wanting to take over the freight/logistics industry,by reversing the growth of the long distance sector of the road transport industry,which took place by road taking market share from rail during the mid-late 20th century.
The surprising thing is the way in which the road transport industry seems to be willing to let it happen without at least putting up a fight by taking court action against an obvious government policy which favours the rail freight industry at the expense of the road transport industry.
but do you think that the general public think that it’s a good thing?
kr79:
If the government announced they was scrapping fuel duty from the 1st Jan 2013 by the 6th rates would be cut acordingly.
Exactly.Which would then mean more demand by customers to send the boxes by road instead of by train.Although it’s my bet that with road fuel duty and VAT on that duty removed there would be sufficient scope in that type of a fuel price cut to allow allow both the customer to benefit from a rate cut ‘and’ for the haulier to keep some too thereby adding to the margin on the job.Then we add on the ability to couple up a 40 ft skele to a rigid instead of a tractor unit,which would allow both a 20 ft and 40-45 ft box to go on the same wagon,and things would look a lot different from the point of view of opportunities for owner drivers.The only thing standing in the way of that are the big business rail freight interests and their cronies in the government.
Keep dreaming Geoffrey rates would be nailed to the floor in the shipping lines favour. Containers and ferry trailers have always been bottom of the heap in the rate scale. The only way rates will rise in the haulier a favour if is there’s more work than trucks and that’s not going to happen as the maratimes pentalevers etc will just expand and more and more owner drivers will fall for the buy an over priced truck from maratime and scrape a living with it.
The big boys can live on small margins through economy of scale and in maratimed case the added sidle of trucks that they get a great bulk price on. And owner drivers can scrape a living by keeping there costs low.
Train or no train that will be the case all the time that the only barrier to entering the haulage industry is meeting the O license requirements.
As for six wheel rigidd pulling a 40 foot box have you seen some of the places container lorrys end up.
newmercman:
Container haulage in the UK is very different to most other countries, apart from a little dabble with Freightliner not much goes on the choo choo, whereas everywhere else the train takes the strain.In the US and Canada, probably Australia too, the train does the bulk of the work and the local deliveries are undertaken by drayage outfits, the only exception being reefer boxes (in Canada) these run from the meat plants in Manitoba all the way to Vancouver (1500miles) on the back of
The fact is containers and trailers are both used for intermodal freight operations and if intermodal rail/road transport was more efficient,( given a level playing field in regards to fuel taxation ),than just sending freight by road,there would have been no such thing as a large scale long distance sector of the road transport industry,which grew throughout North America etc etc by actually taking market share from rail.The only reason why that situation is now being reversed is because of a deliberate government policy of switching freight from road to rail by using punitive taxation and truck regulation policies targeted at road transport,in order to make the choice,of sending freight by road,over long distances, less economically attractive if not totally economically unviable thereby effectively removing that choice.
It’s no surprise that it’s the Canadian road transport industry that seems to be the last one left with any scope for growth and opportunities being that the Canadian government hasn’t totally sold out to the big business rail freight sector ( yet ).
It’s also no surprise that there doesn’t seem to be enough of a strong long distance sector of the US road transport industry left to compete with the Canadian one to take adavantage of what remains of the long distance North/South Canadian/US freight transport market which isn’t subject to the same amount of over capacity as the US domestic East/West freight transport market is now ( cause by growth in the rail freight industry and a reversal of the situation in which road transport took market share from rail ) which was the life blood of the US road transport industry before US politicians sold out to the big business rail freight interests in a similar way to which the British government has done.
Ironically if you and kr are right,about rail being better for long distance freight transport,then it’s only a matter of time before the Canadian road transport industry is subject to similar pressures forcing it into just local work as rail takes an ever larger market share of both East/West domestic long distance traffic and Canada/US North/South traffic.
The fact is allowing rail to reverse the situation,in which the long distance sector of the road tranport industry grew at the expense of rail,will put the road transport industry back to where it was in the early 20th century.
stringy:
You can get freight rates that are paid to door and include the inland leg or you can pay to Port and go Merchant Own Haulage or convert to Carrier, both additional cost to the freight rate
^ This.
Cracks me up when the resident experts continually bump their gums about container haulage rates.
Merchant haulage= direct from customer. As in get off your arse and talk to uk importers.
Line haulage= shipping lines own trucks/contracted hauliers doing the paid through stuff.
“Subby”= pulling for said line haulier at starvation rates. These are the ones generally associated with box work rates.
stevieboy308:
Carryfast:
Bewick:
In all but a few,isolated,seams of intense heavy movements of containers,fuel oils,coal and aggregates the UK isn’t large enough for the economic movement of goods by rail,period! Never mind all the “Bollox” spouted by the “enviromentalists” the distances are not viable,unlike the USA for instance,3000 miles from coast to coast! London to Glasgow (small population in Scotland!) 400 miles,what a joke,rail will never be viable in the UK especially with a truck journey at each end of the operation.Mass movement of passengers by rail YES,but to move freight------ build some decent connecting motorways between the large conerbations,now that would really create some impetus to the lagging economy ! Cheers Bewick.The fact is transport of freight ( not bulk aggregates etc ) by road beats rail wherever it is even over those North American distances.The history of the road transport industry shows that.What we’re seeing now is a deliberate government anti competitive policy of targeted fuel taxation and unrealistic regulation of the road transport industry in order to make rail transport more attractive than it would posibly otherwise be.The whole thing is dressed up as some bs ‘environmental’ issue when the reality is it’s all about the big business rail freight sector wanting to take over the freight/logistics industry,by reversing the growth of the long distance sector of the road transport industry,which took place by road taking market share from rail during the mid-late 20th century.
The surprising thing is the way in which the road transport industry seems to be willing to let it happen without at least putting up a fight by taking court action against an obvious government policy which favours the rail freight industry at the expense of the road transport industry.
but do you think that the general public think that it’s a good thing?
As I remember it the general public was also all for Maggie wiping out the mining industry and look where that got us.Dependent on foreign imported fuel supplies subject to whatever price the Russians etc want for it.The difference is at least the miners tried to fight to save their industry while those in the road transport industry seem to be all about allowing the government to do whatever it wants without even arguing about the situation.
Carryfast:
The fact is transport of freight ( not bulk aggregates etc ) by road beats rail wherever it is even over those North American distances.The history of the road transport industry shows that.
Is this why about 40% of the Freight/miles in the US is by Rail and yet it has received virtually no subsidies or government intervention?
kr79:
Keep dreaming Geoffrey rates would be nailed to the floor in the shipping lines favour. Containers and ferry trailers have always been bottom of the heap in the rate scale. The only way rates will rise in the haulier a favour if is there’s more work than trucks and that’s not going to happen as the maratimes pentalevers etc will just expand and more and more owner drivers will fall for the buy an over priced truck from maratime and scrape a living with it.
The big boys can live on small margins through economy of scale and in maratimed case the added sidle of trucks that they get a great bulk price on. And owner drivers can scrape a living by keeping there costs low.
Train or no train that will be the case all the time that the only barrier to entering the haulage industry is meeting the O license requirements.
As for six wheel rigidd pulling a 40 foot box have you seen some of the places container lorrys end up.
So you’re saying that getting rid of road fuel taxation thereby creating a level playing field in regards to fuel costs compared to rail wouldn’t make the road transport industry more competitive with it’s main competitor rail 
.
You’re also being a bit selective concerning the issue of overcapacity caused by the idea of large truck fleets while totally ignoring the issue of the overcapacity which an ever growing rail freight industry is adding to the situation.The fact is if you think that owner drivers are stitched up under the present system just wait until it’s the rail freight industry that holds all the cards and decides who gets the local zb intermodal deliveries and how much the rail freight industry will be prepared to pay them for the privilege.
Moose:
been reading about various rates on recent posts and been sat here with my abacus and at £1.80 per loaded mile it’s still a backload rate!, just worked out that to go to felixtowe from our yard (IRO) 200 miles =£360 @ 8 to the gallon =£127.28
now that means if i have to come home as i dont have/cant get a backload i am left with £105.33 for 9 hrs driving on a good run and thats before any finance, tax, ins,repairs,wear and tear, parking,trailer hire!
the last time i went with a jcb956 forktruck i charged £650 and came straight back empty and was parked up at 2.30 pm, mind i cant get them loads every day!lol
i know a lad with a sprinter van that was charging £1.50 per loaded mile 2 years ago, no taco and sod all diesel when you compare to a 44 ton unit, never mind no trailer hire/parking charges
Box work is mostly round trip moose.
Oneway stuff does come up, usually only on spot hire though. This leaves you with the option of saying no.
muckles:
Carryfast:
The fact is transport of freight ( not bulk aggregates etc ) by road beats rail wherever it is even over those North American distances.The history of the road transport industry shows that.Is this why about 40% of the Freight/miles in the US is by Rail and yet it has received virtually no subsidies or government intervention?
Road fuel taxation ‘is’ a form of government intervention and road fuel costs and taxes aren’t now what they were there when the US road transport industry was wiping the floor with the rail freight industry given a fair level playing field on fuel costs in addition to which is the continuation of the ridiculous situation of interstate US gross weight limits relative to vehicle lengths.
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
The fact is transport of freight ( not bulk aggregates etc ) by road beats rail wherever it is even over those North American distances.The history of the road transport industry shows that.Is this why about 40% of the Freight/miles in the US is by Rail and yet it has received virtually no subsidies or government intervention?
Road fuel taxation ‘is’ a form of government intervention and road fuel costs and taxes aren’t now what they were there when the US road transport industry was wiping the floor with the rail freight industry given a fair level playing field on fuel costs in addition to which is the continuation of the ridiculous situation of interstate US gross weight limits relative to vehicle lengths.
When was the US road transport sector wiping the floor with the rail industry?
If a container has been in a boat six weeks another week floating round the rail network isn’t going to make much of a difference. Where road haulage will always win Is flexibility. Where we are near Winnipeg we can load today and be anywhere in North America in a maximum of 3 driving shifts obviously less if you are running team and its a door to door service. It’s the same reason there is still a few trucks doing Middle East work yes a container is cheaper and in most cases its ok but by road it can be quicker and if its oversize etc it can be accommodated.
Europe and the uk Is the same and the smaller distances of the uk make it more so that yes a train makes sense pulling two hundred boxes out of felixstowe to the midlands but if there’s a problem and a box gets forgotten the truck will always be the solution.
It’s like that stobart truck v train thing yes they can leave the dock together an race to a terminal but the truck in reality will go straight to the delivery.
Haulage has done such a good job of serving the just in time culture that rail could never hope to beat it.
Even the Royal Mail dropped train use as road was more efficient.
It was the same in the muck away business when I was back home. Cross rail and a few other jobs were sending muck to holland for land reclamation by barge people were saying it will screw the tipper game but not every job is on a canal bank so how does it get to the barge?
As for America same as Canada you see the mile long container trains but that’s about it there’s still thousands of trucks pounding the interstate moving freight wether its 50 miles or 2000 miles.
muckles:
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
The fact is transport of freight ( not bulk aggregates etc ) by road beats rail wherever it is even over those North American distances.The history of the road transport industry shows that.Is this why about 40% of the Freight/miles in the US is by Rail and yet it has received virtually no subsidies or government intervention?
Road fuel taxation ‘is’ a form of government intervention and road fuel costs and taxes aren’t now what they were there when the US road transport industry was wiping the floor with the rail freight industry given a fair level playing field on fuel costs in addition to which is the continuation of the ridiculous situation of interstate US gross weight limits relative to vehicle lengths.
When was the US road transport sector wiping the floor with the rail industry?
It’s unbelievable how so many of those involved in the industry don’t seem to know it’s history and how it got to be where it got.