I’m surprised that EE Drivers put up with this crap… And for less money than we would get as well! 
OVLOV JAY:
mike68:
Nothing will change, not for the foreseeable anyway.The free movement of people throughout Europe will be central to any Brexit negotiations, anyone who voted out and thought this would change clearly did not do their homework, do you honestly think the people who really run this country would be denied an endless pool of cheap labour, no.
That all depends on whether we remain in the single market or not. Of course those who want to remain in the sm will need to concede free movement, but that’s a total mistake as we still get the negatives of the eu which is what everyone voted against. I have no interest in remaining in the single market, as for me on a personal level I gain very little from it. The government won’t get away with any form of “Brexit lite” deal. Out means out and that’s all of it, single market and all.
please go get a dictionary and look up the word everyone. 52% is not everyone, and not even close
chrisdalott:
OVLOV JAY:
mike68:
Nothing will change, not for the foreseeable anyway.The free movement of people throughout Europe will be central to any Brexit negotiations, anyone who voted out and thought this would change clearly did not do their homework, do you honestly think the people who really run this country would be denied an endless pool of cheap labour, no.
That all depends on whether we remain in the single market or not. Of course those who want to remain in the sm will need to concede free movement, but that’s a total mistake as we still get the negatives of the eu which is what everyone voted against. I have no interest in remaining in the single market, as for me on a personal level I gain very little from it. The government won’t get away with any form of “Brexit lite” deal. Out means out and that’s all of it, single market and all.
please go get a dictionary and look up the word everyone. 52% is not everyone, and not even close
I suggest that 52% representing people worse off under former EU conditions counts for a lot more than 48% of people that merely “fear the change” opportunity we’re really faced with here.
If Cleggy’s 3-4m estimate had any bearing (jobs reliant upon the EU) then we’re talking about 10% of the British workforce tops. So if we assume that all 4m (higher end of that estimate) voted for Remain - who were the others making up the 48%? People who were in fact neutral, but feared change? (The Truly neutral would be the 28% who didn’t vote at all…) People who didn’t understand the issues, but voted remain because their kith and kin were doing so? People disappointed that the Tories won the election last year? People that believe Cameron’s “big bringback” actually amounted to anything over and above “hot air and broken promises”?
I wonder what the result would have been if NO campaigning at all had been allowed… Quite frankly I was gobsmacked the “Remain” poll was over 16m like it was…
I don’t think the EU are going to let us have what WE would define as “Brexit Lite” - that is, full access to the single market with full control of our borders being returned to the UK. Not gonna happen. It’s all or nothing. Hard Brexit or No Brexit.
Next, we need to define how “hard” that actually means… If we can do without ANY access to the single market - eg. let all current trade routes lapse as they come up for contract renewal - then we can have all the hardness against the EU - with us already having paid the full downside as far as WE are concerned - which is the weaker pound. The ONLY manifestation of our post-referendum Britain we seem to be saddled with so far, 3 months on…
[/quote]
That all depends on whether we remain in the single market or not. Of course those who want to remain in the sm will need to concede free movement, but that’s a total mistake as we still get the negatives of the eu which is what everyone voted against. I have no interest in remaining in the single market, as for me on a personal level I gain very little from it. The government won’t get away with any form of “Brexit lite” deal. Out means out and that’s all of it, single market and all.
[/quote]
OUT MEANS OUT!! Warts and All!!
I am OUT, and the quicker this happens the better.
[/quote]
This week alone: Land-Rover /Jaguar are reporting sales resistance in the Eu due to Brexit; Renault/Nissan are holding back UK investment. Hard Brexit will mean 10% or maybe more tax on all automotive components.
[/quote]
What do Renault produce in the UK thats causing them an issue? What do they invest in over here? I am unsure - if it is just the renault vans that come off the production line at IBC in Luton, then thats not an issue at all - just badge the ex-renault vans as Vauxhall or Nissan and sell in the UK only - we wouldnt need to import crappy Fiat vans then!
[/quote]
I read that JLR are negotiating to build a plant in Slovakia, which is currently the country of choice for new car factories in Europe, and that Nissan are looking at Spain for the next Gashqai 
Hey but at least we have taken back control, oh sorry in the process of getting back control, on that note 
I’ve noticed that the commons is being reduced to 600 elected representatives, whilst the non elected Lords is heading towards 1000 members, I feel so much more in control of my dwindling electoral representation
[/quote]
Roll on higher taxes (import/export duties) I say!
We buy more imported motors from Eu countries than we export, so who will be the loser here?
- The French? Non! (you dont see the french buying non-french vehicles as a rule, and god forbid their public services (emergency services, public servants, etc.) buying foreign motors.
- The Germans? Nein! (ditto the french position above)
- The Italians? No! (those that can afford Italian supercars will still be able to afford Italian supercars, so no change there. The UK would be well rid of general Italian crap cars like Fiat/Alfa/Lancia with all their previous rusting issues and well-publicised electrical problems!)
- The Spanish? no! (do they make any of their own cars anymore, now that SEAT are owned by VW?)
This country should not be detrimentally affected if we no longer imported cars from Europe - we have the mass-produced motors on offer from the likes of Honda (Swindon), Toyota (Derby) Nissan (Sunderland), and niche marques like JLR, Aston Martin, etc.
Indeed, if anything, we would be better off by not importing and supporting the manufacture of the constituent parts in this country rather than Europe (if much actually comes from Europe any more? (isnt it all produced in China nowadays anyway?)
If Europe hits us with a 10% export duty for sending goods over there, then we hit them back with 20% import duty on their crap - that makes OUR product as competitive, even with the potential higher cost of production over here! A Win-Win in my book 
chrisdalott:
please go get a dictionary and look up the word everyone. 52% is not everyone, and not even close
Just like the in vote in 1975 wasn’t ‘everyone’.On that note the remainers seemed to be happy enough to rely on 67% of a 64% turnout then and since so what’s wrong with relying on a 52% of a 72% turnout now.Oh wait Federalists don’t do democracy.
dsbu:
If Europe hits us with a 10% export duty for sending goods over there, then we hit them back with 20% import duty on their crap - that makes OUR product as competitive, even with the potential higher cost of production over here! A Win-Win in my book
+1
This country actually needs and would benefit from a trade war with the EU.Unfortunately we’ll nee someone like Kate Hoey to do it not Europhile EU puppet May.
Carryfast:
dsbu:
If Europe hits us with a 10% export duty for sending goods over there, then we hit them back with 20% import duty on their crap - that makes OUR product as competitive, even with the potential higher cost of production over here! A Win-Win in my book+1
This country actually needs and would benefit from a trade war with the EU.Unfortunately we’ll nee someone like Kate Hoey to do it not Europhile EU puppet May.
How much do we ACTUALLY buy from Europe anyway nowadays (that we actually need, and not just to satisfy the needs of the economic migrants that have come to the UK)? I genuinely dont know the answer to this, I am not just being facitious!
(I can only think of things like Wine, Cars, foodsuffs - there must be more, but I cant think of much else)
Do we need to import these goods from Europe, or can they be sourced elsewhere in the world? We import a shed load of stuff from other parts of the world anyway, so improved trade agreements with the rest of the world should not be too difficult to obtain.
This Government needs to be strong with Europe, as they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them. If they (Germany/France primarily) dont want to do a deal that this country can live with, without the free movement of labour condition, then we should walk away. I re-iterate my point that they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them!
All the negative talk pre-brexit was a load of guff - as anyone with half a brain could see.
If only the two sides had actually given the country a sensible breakdown of the pro’s and con’s of being in or out of the EU, hard facts - rather than the vile campaign of rubbishing each other, then the result might have been more credible and the remainers wouldnt have been able to moan on about the result!
I do notice, however, that the calls for a re-run of the referendum seem to have subsided, so perhaps all the scaremongerers of the UK’s demise post-brexit have come to realise that we wont be falling apart at the seams out of the Eu.
Maybe the decision to be less hasty to invoke article 50 was the correct one - let the dust settle and the politians calm down before negotiations begin on the exit strategy. We have a decent chance of getting a good deal when everyone is calm and rational!
dsbu:
Maybe the decision to be less hasty to invoke article 50 was the correct one - let the dust settle and the politians calm down before negotiations begin on the exit strategy. We have a decent chance of getting a good deal when everyone is calm and rational!
I think there are other massive outside political pressures which will make that an over optimistic view of where things will probably go.Firstly ironically both the US and China will see anything that can be viewed as successful Secession and Nationalism as a threat to their own domestic agendas.That combined with the Federalist agenda within.Both in the form of Socialism varying from LibDems to Labour and also including Conservative so called ‘Unionism’ which is what took us into the thing.The crowning of remainers May as PM and Hammond as second in command and the continuing remain campaign ■■■■■■■■ and whining just adds to that view.
While if we were really going to leave how difficult could it be,to just rejoin EFTA and give the EU an offer it couldn’t refuse in the form of unconditional open trade between EFTA and the EU take it or leave it.But we are no longer prepared to bow down to EU economic blackmail of sovereignty for trade.IE that could have been done with more or less immediate effect after the referendum and just screw up article 50 on the basis that further UK EU membership is pointless and counterproductive for all concerned.That provision existing within the treaties.
As it stands everything points to a damage limitation exercise by the remain agenda to at worse play for time and keep us in with the least leave vote backlash possible.Or at best swap EU for EU in all but name EEA membership.My bet is that the former is the more likely scenario with the latter being May’s plan B if she thinks that backlash will be too much.
Franglais:
OVLOV JAY:
mike68:
Nothing will change, not for the foreseeable anyway.The free movement of people throughout Europe will be central to any Brexit negotiations, anyone who voted out and thought this would change clearly did not do their homework, do you honestly think the people who really run this country would be denied an endless pool of cheap labour, no.
That all depends on whether we remain in the single market or not. Of course those who want to remain in the sm will need to concede free movement, but that’s a total mistake as we still get the negatives of the eu which is what everyone voted against. I have no interest in remaining in the single market, as for me on a personal level I gain very little from it. The government won’t get away with any form of “Brexit lite” deal. Out means out and that’s all of it, single market and all.
This week alone: Land-Rover /Jaguar are reporting sales resistance in the Eu due to Brexit; Renault/Nissan are holding back UK investment. Hard Brexit will mean 10% or maybe more tax on all automotive components. Even if you keep YOUR job, the increasing pool of unemployed will give YOU worse pay and conditions in the future. You may wish to leave the Eu community, but you`re still in the UK community, “no man is an island” etc.
With all the dosh we with save once out of the EU, we can invest some into projects to help provide jobs, We are paying billions into the EU and getting next to sweet F.A in return, we need control of our borders our laws our country back
Carryfast:
dsbu:
Maybe the decision to be less hasty to invoke article 50 was the correct one - let the dust settle and the politians calm down before negotiations begin on the exit strategy. We have a decent chance of getting a good deal when everyone is calm and rational!I think there are other massive outside political pressures which will make that an over optimistic view of where things will probably go.Firstly ironically both the US and China will see anything that can be viewed as successful Secession and Nationalism as a threat to their own domestic agendas.That combined with the Federalist agenda within.Both in the form of Socialism varying from LibDems to Labour and also including Conservative so called ‘Unionism’ which is what took us into the thing.The crowning of remainers May as PM and Hammond as second in command and the continuing remain campaign ■■■■■■■■ and whining just adds to that view.
While if we were really going to leave how difficult could it be,to just rejoin EFTA and give the EU an offer it couldn’t refuse in the form of unconditional open trade between EFTA and the EU take it or leave it.But we are no longer prepared to bow down to EU economic blackmail of sovereignty for trade.IE that could have been done with more or less immediate effect after the referendum and just screw up article 50 on the basis that further UK EU membership is pointless and counterproductive for all concerned.That provision existing within the treaties.
As it stands everything points to a damage limitation exercise by the remain agenda to at worse play for time and keep us in with the least leave vote backlash possible.Or at best swap EU for EU in all but name EEA membership.My bet is that the former is the more likely scenario with the latter being May’s plan B if she thinks that backlash will be too much.
By doing either traitor sharia may will be ending her political career because she will be ousted as will the tories, the sad old control freak needs a size 10 up her jacksie the dithering delaying has gone on long enough already
Implementing Brexit is going to be the key issue for the next election - regardless of who and when.
I think even Corbyn is getting wise to this, as he’s gone rather quiet of late with regards to “any talk of overturning the referendum result”. This is unlike Owen Smith of course.
If the next government is to be a coalition AND not involving the only-8-seats-left Libdems - then the fight for the “3rd position” kingmaker is going to be key between now and the next election.
At present, that spot is occupied by the SNP. Trouble is for them - they can’t really increase their number of seats beyond what they already have. It’s going to be a tall order to get any other party - even UKIP or the Greens past what the SNP are still likely to hold onto at the next election.
OVLOV JAY:
Suits me franglais. I’m happy to struggle short term so my kids and grandkids can have a more prosperous future than the one I suffered at the expense of my elders selling us into this crap. And anyway, there’s every possibility a shortage in labour will lead to a return of the high wages that were enjoyed pre 2004
Dream on.
mike68:
I would like to see a witdrawl from the SM with a negotiated trade deal, remember the Import duty to non EU countries is 4% nothing really, we support 1 million jobs in Germany alone they need us as much as we need them, I believe Theresa May will get us a fair deal its going to take a good few years and cost many millions to achieve, we will benefit as nation but its going to take considerably longer than most think.
“4% nothing really” From Bloomberg: "While Renault has gained market share in Europe thanks to new cars like the Kadjar sport utility vehicle, profitability hasn’t improved as much as expected. The operating margin at its auto division stood at 3.1 percent in the first half, below JPMorgan’s 3.4 percent forecast and trailing Peugeot’s 5 percent!
So although it`s an over simplification, any company making 4 or 5 % profit could go from being profitable to being loss-making by Eu tariffs. Eu tariffs are currently 4.3% for transport goods, but a whooping 17.7% for animal products (think premium beef and lamb), 42% for dairy products (milk for cheese makers), 12% for fish products (shellfish etc).
Will any Japanese or other foreign investor company give itself a 4.3% handicap for automotive products? Or pay the extra 11.4% tariff on clothing? Why build a factory here with extra land prices and now, possibly, extra tariffs?
(above figures from World Trade Organisation. wto.org/english/res_e/books … df#page=77 )
dsbu:
That all depends on whether we remain in the single market or not. Of course those who want to remain in the sm will need to concede free movement, but that’s a total mistake as we still get the negatives of the eu which is what everyone voted against. I have no interest in remaining in the single market, as for me on a personal level I gain very little from it. The government won’t get away with any form of “Brexit lite” deal. Out means out and that’s all of it, single market and all.
[/quote]
OUT MEANS OUT!! Warts and All!!
I am OUT, and the quicker this happens the better.
[/quote]
This week alone: Land-Rover /Jaguar are reporting sales resistance in the Eu due to Brexit; Renault/Nissan are holding back UK investment. Hard Brexit will mean 10% or maybe more tax on all automotive components.
[/quote]
What do Renault produce in the UK thats causing them an issue? What do they invest in over here? I am unsure - if it is just the renault vans that come off the production line at IBC in Luton, then thats not an issue at all - just badge the ex-renault vans as Vauxhall or Nissan and sell in the UK only - we wouldnt need to import crappy Fiat vans then!
[/quote]
I read that JLR are negotiating to build a plant in Slovakia, which is currently the country of choice for new car factories in Europe, and that Nissan are looking at Spain for the next Gashqai Hey but at least we have taken back control, oh sorry in the process of getting back control, on that note I’ve noticed that the commons is being reduced to 600 elected representatives, whilst the non elected Lords is heading towards 1000 members, I feel so much more in control of my dwindling electoral representation
[/quote]
Roll on higher taxes (import/export duties) I say!
We buy more imported motors from Eu countries than we export, so who will be the loser here?
- The French? Non! (you dont see the french buying non-french vehicles as a rule, and god forbid their public services (emergency services, public servants, etc.) buying foreign motors.
- The Germans? Nein! (ditto the french position above)
- The Italians? No! (those that can afford Italian supercars will still be able to afford Italian supercars, so no change there. The UK would be well rid of general Italian crap cars like Fiat/Alfa/Lancia with all their previous rusting issues and well-publicised electrical problems!)
- The Spanish? no! (do they make any of their own cars anymore, now that SEAT are owned by VW?)
This country should not be detrimentally affected if we no longer imported cars from Europe - we have the mass-produced motors on offer from the likes of Honda (Swindon), Toyota (Derby) Nissan (Sunderland), and niche marques like JLR, Aston Martin, etc.
Indeed, if anything, we would be better off by not importing and supporting the manufacture of the constituent parts in this country rather than Europe (if much actually comes from Europe any more? (isnt it all produced in China nowadays anyway?)
If Europe hits us with a 10% export duty for sending goods over there, then we hit them back with 20% import duty on their crap - that makes OUR product as competitive, even with the potential higher cost of production over here! A Win-Win in my book
[/quote]
Franglais:
For any major manufacturer to succeed they need economies of scale, hence large factories rather than small ones and tie ins such as Renault/Nissan. Motor manufacturers need an international market for each factory not summat as small as a single country. So cross border sales are necessary to survival. Tariffs can kill this trade because of the competitive market and low margins mass producers operate at. A trade war will result in lowered consumption of non essentials (a new car after 4 years instead of 2 years)(t-shirts worn 2 seasons instead of 2weeks). Less goods means less employment and a downward spiral. Show me when anyone (outside of an emerging economy) benefitted from tariffs?
Also our main exports are from the service sector. No expensive factories invested in, no problem relocating the raw material, people elsewhere; over the Channel maybe? Financial institutions dont have much/any national fidelity do they? If their bottom line is threatened theyll not be hanging around too long methinks.
Hopefully they bring in a visa system .Then it could all even out .As for the single market .we do not need it .
dsbu:
This Government needs to be strong with Europe, as they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them. If they (Germany/France primarily) dont want to do a deal that this country can live with, without the free movement of labour condition, then we should walk away. I re-iterate my point that they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them!
UK exports to the EU represent 13% of UK GDP, EU exports to the UK represent 3% of their GDP, now who needs who more.
del trotter:
dsbu:
This Government needs to be strong with Europe, as they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them. If they (Germany/France primarily) dont want to do a deal that this country can live with, without the free movement of labour condition, then we should walk away. I re-iterate my point that they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them!UK exports to the EU represent 13% of UK GDP, EU exports to the UK represent 3% of their GDP, now who needs who more.
Spoken like a true remoaner. The 13% to the eu is spread across the other 27 countries, and the 3% coming in is using those same 27 countries combined. Break the 3% down individually into countries gdp percentage, and you’ll get a truer reflection. You can’t compare apples and oranges and expect a fair fight
del trotter:
dsbu:
This Government needs to be strong with Europe, as they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them. If they (Germany/France primarily) dont want to do a deal that this country can live with, without the free movement of labour condition, then we should walk away. I re-iterate my point that they need us as much as (if not more than) we need them!UK exports to the EU represent 13% of UK GDP, EU exports to the UK represent 3% of their GDP, now who needs who more.
Good point. Also note that UK exports to the Eu are about 50% of total exports. So the Eu is our largest market. Can we afford to increase the prices of our goods to our biggest market? Rosy tinted wishful thinking don`t cut it in the real world.
(UK exports 3months July 2016 – Eu-35.7 Non.Eu-36.9. (£m))(ons.gov.uk/economy/national … cordssheet) Office of Nat Stats.
Who said that EE drivers need a driving job, we a versatile, we can and do a whole bunch of jobs 
Meanwhile in the real world:
Three-quarters of British company bosses are considering moving operations abroad following the vote to leave the European Union, according to a survey published on Monday.
The KPMG survey of 100 UK chief executives, from companies with revenues between 100 million pounds and 1 billion pounds ($130 million-$1.30 billion), found 86 percent were confident about their company’s growth prospects and 69 percent were confident about the British economy’s growth prospects over the next three years.
However, 76 percent said they were considering moving either their headquarters or their operations outside Britain because of the June 23 “Brexit” vote.
uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN11W003
Four central European countries are prepared to veto any Brexit deal agreed between the UK and the European Union that restricts their citizens’ rights to live and work in Britain, the prime minister of Slovakia has said.
In a stark reminder of the challenge Britain faces at the negotiating table, Robert Fico said Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia – known as the Visegrad, or V4, group – would not hesitate to block any future trade accord that threatened the key EU principle of free movement of workers.
theguardian.com/politics/20 … live-in-uk
Brexit lite…thats the best deal UK will get, EEA membership, free movement of EU citizens and keeping the access to the single market. With some form of registration of EU citizens, like in Norway, where if you cant find job in 6 months you have to go home.
I think EE drivers are really the least of our worries, with the pound so low the rest of Europe will be looking for cheap British drivers (like a couple of years ago)
We must realise we import a hell lot of stuff, with very important things like electricity, gas, food (Britain cannot produce food itself).
We buy a hell lot of knowledge on medical, information technology and goods for the heavy industry from countries in the EU.
Italy is a big supplier of production machines for the food and aluminium industries.
All the guys who use to run Europe and some who still do, know how much comes out the EU.
Regarding car manufacturers here; Nissan, Honda, and Toyota are only here, because we have acces to the single market, if the single market disappears, there is no point for them to produce here, as the GB market is to small.
Similair thing for JLR, if we don’t have acces to a single market, it may be more interesting for them to produce in India.
Ford already reducing their investment in the engine plants in the UK, while there is more investment in the Spanish and even the Saarbrucken plant.
I don’t think the EE immigrants will be of our slightest worry in the future.
I see on a daily bases, very good job offers cannot be filled with British (un-employed) workers, because they rather be on the dole.
My next guess will be that salaries will be again frozen for a long time to come (with the excuse to support our economy)
I have dual Nationality, and won’t give it up in a whim, keep the door open.