East Europeans undercutting?

orys:

Wheel Nut:
The standards I mean are the maintenance standards

With all my respect, wheel nut, comparing British maintenance standards to what I was used to back in Poland, I can hardly imagine anyone from the civilized part of the world having them lower than Britain.

Or I am very unlucky to work only in the companies who service their vans with Muppets Engineriing.

Probably immigrant workers from the ex Muppetski Engineering works where they made components for the Trabant,Skoda and the Lada. :laughing:

orys:

Wheel Nut:
The standards I mean are the maintenance standards

With all my respect, wheel nut, comparing British maintenance standards to what I was used to back in Poland, I can hardly imagine anyone from the civilized part of the world having them lower than Britain.

Or I am very unlucky to work only in the companies who service their vans with Muppets Engineriing.

You are probably right Orys, after all our almost compulsory 6 week inspections could be carried out by a 9 year old child and the rest of Europes fleet keep rolling on with a manufacturers scheduled service and an annual MOT

Big Jon’s dad:
Is it not stange that we complain about Eastern Europeans coming here to earn a living and taking that money back to their own countries to raise their families & buy houses for £3000.00 etc. but at the same time we find nothing wrong with us taking the money we earned here and buying a place in Eastern Europe for £3000.00 or whatever?

Surely if one action is bad, so is the other? Not having a go at anyone in particular but in general.

The whole of Europe is topsy turvy,and has been for a while.East Europeans coming here to work,us going over there to live.Let’s face it,UK is very broken for those of us who are being fleeced by govt. and taxes at every turn.Polish Zloty has gone from 8 ish down to 4.4 /£ in the last 3 yrs,so money sent back to PL has effectively halved.A few years ago,my dream was to move to Spain,do a few years work and have a good life.This may still be possible in the likes of BG etc. because most of their crims are now over here .Sorry. Calm again now :smiley: :smiley:

orys:
I dare to tell that what brings the costs down for them is a workers attitude and that makes significant difference for them. Not many British drivers I know would agree to spend several weeks in the row away from home then come back for only few days - this is still common pattern in Polish companies. Also double manning is very popular.

To take just a couple of points, I doubt that this is due to a positive attitude among the workforce but more due to the fact that this is the requirement of their employer. I have little doubt that Polish drivers are as keen on spending some time with their wives, children etc as we are. I feel sorry for the drivers who have to live this way, I certainly don’t feel animosity towards them for having to do it. Legislation could improve their lives as well as levelling the playing field.

You may as well say that fruit is picked by eastern Europeans because they have a better attitude, in that they will live ten to a caravan and work for the £3.50 an hour the gangmaster pays them. It is not a question of attitude.

orys:
Every time I come back to Poland I am amazed how expensive everything is. Just to give you an example. When I first drove back to Poland, for each liter of petrol in Glasgow (which was about 99 p at the time and the pound was nearly 6 PLN) I was able to buy nearly two litres of Petrol in Poland (as they were costing 3.30 PLN at the time). Today, liter of petrol in Glasgow is 1.20, liter of petrol in Poland is 4.60 and this is more than one pound as for todays rates.

But I think this is a good news for you: the Eastern European countries build their wealth quiclky on that “cutting you” and soon the differences will be no longer so significant. If the British haulage survived allowing 10 new countries 6 years ago, and as you can see from my example they are no longer such a big threat to you, they will survive another few years with Romanians and Bulgarians. And after some time all costs and wages will be about equal, so it will be back to as it should be.

Yes, Poland is far more expensive than it was going back five or ten years and if we had an end goal in sight it would be something to bear for the greater good. But my suspicion is that as Poland and the other 2004 accessionist countries become wealthier, then Bulgaria and Romania which joined three years later,that we will simply rinse and repeat, looking further east towards Ukraine, Turkey etc.

There just seems to be a huge power shift moving eastwards, and not just in Europe, but to China where our wealth is rapidly disappearing to.

orys:
[It’s true that Polish hauliers had much cheaper live, but this is no longer the case (at least in case of Poland). Believe or not, but even Polish hauliers are using now cheaper subcontractors from Romania or Baltic states.

well I have seen romanians pulling polish trailers but I find it difficult to believe that a company from the baltics would be subbing for a polish firm.

Harry Monk:
To take just a couple of points, I doubt that this is due to a positive attitude among the workforce but more due to the fact that this is the requirement of their employer. I have little doubt that Polish drivers are as keen on spending some time with their wives, children etc as we are. I feel sorry for the drivers who have to live this way, I certainly don’t feel animosity towards them for having to do it. Legislation could improve their lives as well as levelling the playing field.

O don’t think that’s positive. But this is just the fact. Companies who uses a lot of Eastern European drivers can do that, because they will agree for that (for one or another reason).

By positive attitude I meant lack of “it’s not my job” attitude amongs the Poles I know, which makes live easier.

Every time there is some problem at the border I have to wait, the guy who does customs in our company is honestly surprised that I am not moaning about it as every other drivers do (I am the only Pole in the company). Well, I can’t see a reason - this is part of the job and after all I am paid per hour, so what’s the problem?

Yes, Poland is far more expensive than it was going back five or ten years and if we had an end goal in sight it would be something to bear for the greater good. But my suspicion is that as Poland and the other 2004 accessionist countries become wealthier, then Bulgaria and Romania which joined three years later,that we will simply rinse and repeat, looking further east towards Ukraine, Turkey etc.

There just seems to be a huge power shift moving eastwards, and not just in Europe, but to China where our wealth is rapidly disappearing to.

That’s the other thing. But it happens already, no matter if we got EU or not…

As factories were moving out to Poland few years ago, they are now moving further east, even if it’s outside EU borders…

milodon:

orys:
[It’s true that Polish hauliers had much cheaper live, but this is no longer the case (at least in case of Poland). Believe or not, but even Polish hauliers are using now cheaper subcontractors from Romania or Baltic states.

well I have seen romanians pulling polish trailers but I find it difficult to believe that a company from the baltics would be subbing for a polish firm.

Last time I was in Wrocław I seen trailers from local haulier being pulled by the Latvians, but it might be not a common thing, you propably know better than me.

Carryfast:

orys:

Wheel Nut:
The standards I mean are the maintenance standards

With all my respect, wheel nut, comparing British maintenance standards to what I was used to back in Poland, I can hardly imagine anyone from the civilized part of the world having them lower than Britain.

Or I am very unlucky to work only in the companies who service their vans with Muppets Engineriing.

Probably immigrant workers from the ex Muppetski Engineering works where they made components for the Trabant,Skoda and the Lada. :laughing:

Actualy, and this is just the fact, the only place I worked when the service was up to the expected standards was the place, who was servicing lorries in place staffed mostly by Polish mechanics.

The supervisor in that place was asking me every time I was there to pick up/collect the lorry if I don’t want any Polish mechanics who want to work for him, as he’s very happy with them…

In my current place there is a van which has too much oil in this. It was in service about 6 times since, and they still did not removed excess oil. Now there is a problem with excessive smoke, and I would dare to guess that it has to be related. For me this is a disqualification of the garage, but my boss don’t understands what I am talking about - he claims this is normal here…

Meantime, when I was leaving my lada-like FSO 125p in Polish garage, they were asking me how much oil it takes and then they were putting the oil level not only “between the marks” but in exact place that with expected oil consumption the oil level will be OK as long as possible…

And I don’t know what you all have to Trabant. It’s a very good car for it’s time (1960’s) and expectation of it’s customers - cheap, simple, reliable and comfortable and quite modern. I would not exchange it for it’s British equivalent of its times. Let me remind you that in Britain at this time, in this class you had Morris Minor, heavlily outdated already, and Reliant Regal, which was just a freak with one wheel missing on the front :slight_smile:

This was the car we had in family for years, and I was taking my first driving lessons on it. I really can’t tell any bad word on it, exept that it was outdated in 1990s… But ours was with our family from 1979 to 1996, the same one, it did over half a milion kms for us and about 80 000 for a previous owner and my father never had any major problems with it…

Wheel Nut:

welshboyinspain:
what a load of crap, since living in spain i have been earning more than i used to when i lived in the uk and drove into europe and from what i keep reading on here i’m earning more than the majority so how can it be lower standatrds in spain?
harry hit the nail on the head about employment, since the EU got bigger spain has imported unemployment from bulgarians and romanians who will work for low pay and displace spanish drivers

The standards I mean are the maintenance standards, the “Spanish way” and the ease of starting a new operation. Just look in any French or Spanish transport companies yards and count how many trucks are parked up. We cannot afford to have them stood like that.

I am pleased you are earning more than you were in Wales, but to give you well deserved credit, you must have a grasp of the local language and social standing to be able to work alongside the natives. But do the natives compare you to the Bulgarians and Romanians? After all, you are taking a Spaniards job!

i find the only difference between spanish and UK running of trucks is that we don’t have the 6 weekly inspection everything else is pretty much the same, roadtax, insurance and the like but i think the way to get an O licence in spain is more expensive about 30,000 not sure what it is in the uk now, isn’t it per truck in the bank?
as for the locals treating me different, there are 18 trucks in our company and 6 are driven by brits but we all earn the same as a spaniard and spend our wages in spain on mortgages and taxes whereas the BG and RO are treated badly because they will work for half the local wages whilst living in their trucks and send it home meaning their family are loaded but many spanish drivers are unemployed

Looking back,before the European Economic Comunity/Union/Empire was 'widened’I don’t remember any discussion about the possible influx we would suffer?I mean how could we be expected to know if we open the sweetie shop door and let all everyone in to help themselves to what was left of Britain more than 30,000,the commonly quoted expected number would land?Yeah standard’s,wages,cost’s,employment opportunities will equalise!Downwards and certainly not to the benefit of everyone whose lived,worked and paid their dues all their lives here!Good move?Yeah we really needed to ‘import’ big issue sellers and all the rest,we’ve only got 2 1/2 million,and the rest,'workless.

orys:

Carryfast:

orys:

Wheel Nut:
The standards I mean are the maintenance standards

With all my respect, wheel nut, comparing British maintenance standards to what I was used to back in Poland, I can hardly imagine anyone from the civilized part of the world having them lower than Britain.

Or I am very unlucky to work only in the companies who service their vans with Muppets Engineriing.

Probably immigrant workers from the ex Muppetski Engineering works where they made components for the Trabant,Skoda and the Lada. :laughing:

Actualy, and this is just the fact, the only place I worked when the service was up to the expected standards was the place, who was servicing lorries in place staffed mostly by Polish mechanics.

The supervisor in that place was asking me every time I was there to pick up/collect the lorry if I don’t want any Polish mechanics who want to work for him, as he’s very happy with them…

In my current place there is a van which has too much oil in this. It was in service about 6 times since, and they still did not removed excess oil. Now there is a problem with excessive smoke, and I would dare to guess that it has to be related. For me this is a disqualification of the garage, but my boss don’t understands what I am talking about - he claims this is normal here…

Meantime, when I was leaving my lada-like FSO 125p in Polish garage, they were asking me how much oil it takes and then they were putting the oil level not only “between the marks” but in exact place that with expected oil consumption the oil level will be OK as long as possible…

And I don’t know what you all have to Trabant. It’s a very good car for it’s time (1960’s) and expectation of it’s customers - cheap, simple, reliable and comfortable and quite modern. I would not exchange it for it’s British equivalent of its times. Let me remind you that in Britain at this time, in this class you had Morris Minor, heavlily outdated already, and Reliant Regal, which was just a freak with one wheel missing on the front :slight_smile:

This was the car we had in family for years, and I was taking my first driving lessons on it. I really can’t tell any bad word on it, exept that it was outdated in 1990s… But ours was with our family from 1979 to 1996, the same one, it did over half a milion kms for us and about 80 000 for a previous owner and my father never had any major problems with it…

But in Britain at that time there were also a lot of cars which were much better than the Morris Minor on the road unlike in Eastern Europe.The problem for us is that the expectations of east europeans have’nt changed much to the point where they want an immediate change in their living standards to match those of Western Europe.That’s why the employers wanted the east european states in the EU to take advantage of those percieved expectations.If,and/or as soon as,those standards are ever brought into line,eastern europe will be dumped and they’ll move on to the next bunch of mugs who don’t mind working for next to nothing.

Carryfast:
But in Britain at that time there were also a lot of cars which were much better than the Morris Minor on the road unlike in Eastern Europe.

Oh, Eastern Europe also had a lot of cars which were much better than the Morris Minor. This is not hard thing to do :smiley:

The problem for us is that the expectations of east europeans have’nt changed much to the point where they want an immediate change in their living standards to match those of Western Europe.

Yeah.

The problem is that first what was brought to the line with Western Europe was prices. Do you know that, for example, when Poland joined EU, the Polish Car Dealers were forced to rise the prices to equal these in Germany in the interest of German dealers who were affraid that they will looose the customers who will go out shopping for cars to Poland…

But unfortunately noone cared about putting the salaries up to German standrds, hence enourmous import of second hand cars to Eastern Europe as noone could afford a new car any more.

Living here I am really impressed by how my friends back in Poland copy. I mentioned that house prices in Poland are about the same than in Scotland, yet the salaries are still much lower…

I got here Daihatsu Sirion on 5 years finance while being a student working part time. My father back in Poland took his Skoda Fabia on 7 years, being university lecturer… And mine is of higher specification.

That’s why the employers wanted the east european states in the EU to take advantage of those percieved expectations.If,and/or as soon as,those standards are ever brought into line,eastern europe will be dumped and they’ll move on to the next bunch of mugs who don’t mind working for next to nothing.

It’s happening already. But you can blame people who work for what’s available for them. Everybody needs to make a leaving so they get the best work is available for them.

You seem to be not happy with people coming here and working for the same than you, yet you in the same time expect them to work back home for the same money you are paid here… It’s not working like that: either you come to UK and work for UK money, or you stay back in Poland, Bulgaria or whatever and work for what they pay there. As someone mentioned already it’s the same here. I bet that Stevensons of Wick pay much less than some fancy companies based in London, but if you leave in Northern Scotland you have not much choice, so you work for whatever is on the market and you are happy that your living costs are lower than in London. It is exactly the same in Europe, only on the bigger scale.

That’s why the employers wanted the east european states in the EU to take advantage of those percieved expectations.If,and/or as soon as,those standards are ever brought into line,eastern europe will be dumped and they’ll move on to the next bunch of mugs who don’t mind working for next to nothing.

It is already happening and with that globalisation it’s unavoidable. This is why Eastern European countries should invest in high tech technology which will not be possible to be moved to Bangladesh…

orys:
It is already happening and with that globalisation it’s unavoidable.

But it’s not unavoidable.

orys:

Carryfast:

That’s why the employers wanted the east european states in the EU to take advantage of those percieved expectations.If,and/or as soon as,those standards are ever brought into line,eastern europe will be dumped and they’ll move on to the next bunch of mugs who don’t mind working for next to nothing.

It is already happening and with that globalisation it’s unavoidable. This is why Eastern European countries should invest in high tech technology which will not be possible to be moved to Bangladesh…

If we take that to it’s logical conclusion the only job opportunities in Europe will be for scientists :question: . :unamused: But why is globalisation unavoidable when all it takes is a government which says enough no more and puts up the required trade and immigration barriers to put our own country and it’s indigenous population back to work.That would include leaving the EU considering that it’s now not the same thing as it was when we joined it.

Carryfast:
.That would include leaving the EU considering that it’s now not the same thing as it was when we joined it.

Completely agree. This is not what we signed up for.

Harry Monk:

Carryfast:
.That would include leaving the EU considering that it’s now not the same thing as it was when we joined it.

Completely agree. This is not what we signed up for.

Steady on Harry agreeing with Carryfast !!!

This country is knackered while in Europe, most of our imports come from China we should become a division of China !! We must have enough of their takeaways to qualify

Some reasoned and pertinent stuff:

Harry Monk:
‘… Cadbury’s plant at Keynsham. It was efficient and profitable, but it was simply ‘more’ profitable to move the entire operation to Poland …’

With a claim for infamy and embarrassment, I am closely related to a guy who was deeply yet highly manipulated within that company’s management chain some two years ago :blush: Yes, to his family’s broad dismay, he played a major role in UK workforce dismissals :frowning:

muckles:
'… Cadburys is now part of the giant Kraft food empire …‘so why should they care provided we keep eating their products…’

Hmm, her brother is now about to move to a promoted position in Zurich, Switzerland - where Kraft HQ is located. Enough said? :wink: It is thus that my savvy and very good, personal and ‘insider’ advice has told me that Cadbury will still thrive, but with billions of profit taken from the UK. But didn’t mainstream MP’s and other pro-EU puppets tell us the utter balloney that conducting business from outside the EU is unthinkable? :smiling_imp: Ha! Nationally we fell for it! We remain a nation having excellent salesmen and excellent consumers of every product imaginable - except anti-EU membership, political truths that few are willing to fund to any significant degree in case they become politically castrated! However, amongst other worthily British causes, I give them what I can manage each month to proudly carry their card.

Incidentally, they dont really know what (your) President Van Rumpuy is positively doing for the UK, do you?

Harry Monk:
‘… You may as well say that fruit is picked by eastern Europeans because they have a better attitude, in that they will live ten to a caravan and work for the £3.50 an hour the gangmaster pays them. It is not a question of attitude…’

Eh? Not even an ‘attitude’ of ‘blow that, I’m not working for monkey-money?’

lynchy:
‘… before the European Economic Comunity/Union/Empire was ‘widened’ I don’t remember any discussion about the possible influx we would suffer? …how could we be expected to know if we open the sweetie shop door and let all everyone in to help themselves to what was left of Britain more than 30,000,the commonly quoted expected number would land?..’

Lynchy, we are part of a well intended, but now aged & distorted post war experiment that is now going hideously wrong. But because all major UK political parties are signed up to it, and above most other considerations, Britons vote tribally or on issues other than the EU, we shall remain lumbered by default unless a party advocating non-EU membership gets a meaningful, national toehold.

There is only one party which is severely underfunded both financially and in rational BBC airtime terms. It has hardworking, pro-Britain, non-sycophant or toady EU civil-servants, who were delightfully and democratically elected there by Britons at the last Euro elections, with their MEP seats in Brussels/Strasbourg or where ever the Gravy Train, which they abhor, stops this week.

They ask such questions such as ‘why havent the accounts been properly audited these last twenty years’ Ask Kinnock, he sacked the woman who first publicly asked that very question and who is now the party’s deputy leader.

If I’m wrong, please point out where or how, etc :wink:

Carryfast:

orys:

Carryfast:

That’s why the employers wanted the east european states in the EU to take advantage of those percieved expectations.If,and/or as soon as,those standards are ever brought into line,eastern europe will be dumped and they’ll move on to the next bunch of mugs who don’t mind working for next to nothing.

It is already happening and with that globalisation it’s unavoidable. This is why Eastern European countries should invest in high tech technology which will not be possible to be moved to Bangladesh…

If we take that to it’s logical conclusion the only job opportunities in Europe will be for scientists :question: . :unamused: But why is globalisation unavoidable when all it takes is a government which says enough no more and puts up the required trade and immigration barriers to put our own country and it’s indigenous population back to work.That would include leaving the EU considering that it’s now not the same thing as it was when we joined it.

I am affraid that the economies of the world are already too ■■■■■■■ to each other to put freely any barriers… That can lead to the some tax wars again…

As for immigration: ok, ban the immigration, but who will work for our pensions then?

orys:
‘… As for immigration: ok, ban the immigration, but who will work for our pensions then?..’

Indeed - as well as the pensions of the extended families of those currently rolling up, often giftless with their too frequent inbred status combining menace with sad-eyes depending (usually) on what works for them after they’ve cleared Dover, etc.

I give in: Is it Allah …or a Moomin?

Happy Keith:

orys:
‘… As for immigration: ok, ban the immigration, but who will work for our pensions then?..’

Indeed - as well as the pensions of the extended families of those currently rolling up, often giftless with their too frequent inbred status combining menace with sad-eyes depending (usually) on what works for them after they’ve cleared Dover, etc.

I give in: Is it Allah …or a Moomin?

Well, yeah, I used to work with Pakistani people and I was observing how they rip out your country. It’s just amazing. But this is fault at the immigration policy, the problem with too slow growth of native British (or European) population still persists.

PS. Another cool thing about Moomin books is that noone really seems to be working there but everyone have everything - fresh paper at the doorstep every day, good meals etc. What a happy world :slight_smile: