why is it the East Europeans get the flack all the time for undercutting.
sometimes it is rates, sometimes it is wages.
in every job i have done, the east europeans have been on the same rate/wage as me. “and i won’t work for [zb] money”.
then there is cabotage. whenever it gets mentioned, you hear people go on about being undercut by the east europeans. How?
cheap diesel dosn’t last forever. they have to pay tolls to get here. then there are ferry costs.
It is mostly because wages of drivers and office staff, and other operating costs are far lower for a haulier based in eastern Europe. An eastern European driver will typically spend several weeks in western Europe at a time, running loads, say, from the UK to Spain.
A couple of years ago they were quoting rates of around half of what my boss was quoting for any given job and although they have become slightly more costly an eastern European haulier will do a trip to Italy or Spain for about a third less than a British haulier.
Whilst we object to anyone undertaking work at a lower price than we consider sufficient, it’s a symptom of the free-market economy. Any haulier,
providing he considers he can still make profit, would offer a lower rate than his competitors if it secured him the work. The ability to do so is based on a variety of factors, and the East Europeans have an advantage with their wage costs. I do think this will eventually level out as their wage demands increase inline with their general cost of living as the East develops towards Western social standards. In the meantime, East European hauliers will continue to exploit the need for the low haulage costs that we demand in order to keep our own manufacturing industry competitive.
You can’t really blame them! Likewise, you can’t blame the manufacturers/forwarders for trying to get their haulage costs as low as possible.
On a different note, I know several East Europeans, along with a couple of Portugese who work for UK firms, and they’re all on the same money as the
UK based staff.
Not only undercutting, a few on here are too quick to blame both East and West Europeans under the title of " foreign drivers" for every thing thats wrong in the industry, I know that there are a few dubious types among them, but to other nationalities we are foreigners, but some UK drivers I have met are complete (zb )ers also, so you can,t put a complete nationality in one category, we,re all doing the same job up against the same old cack and the driver has no control over what his firm does, (on a similar point. most hate Stobarts on here but the drivers are mostly ok) I,ve driven lhd foreign regd motors before on previous jobs, and have witnessed minor hostile attitudes from some UK drivers, as I,m sure some of you have
For example o.night parking in lay bys in my area has been banned because "Foreign drivers"have been leaving litter, last time I was in same lay bys, it was all burger boxes and cups mostly left by boy racers, and I,ve never seen a convoy of Betz ,Nedexco, and Koops in the drive - thru at Maccy Ds.
Saw some east european drivers who had been parked at an industrial estate all weekend recently.Before they moved off they went around and picked up all the litter some of which was probably not theirs. Was impressed really as cannot see a lot of others doing this.
gb1:
Whilst we object to anyone undertaking work at a lower price than we consider sufficient, it’s a symptom of the free-market economy. Any haulier,
providing he considers he can still make profit, would offer a lower rate than his competitors if it secured him the work. The ability to do so is based on a variety of factors, and the East Europeans have an advantage with their wage costs. I do think this will eventually level out as their wage demands increase inline with their general cost of living as the East develops towards Western social standards. In the meantime, East European hauliers will continue to exploit the need for the low haulage costs that we demand in order to keep our own manufacturing industry competitive.
You can’t really blame them! Likewise, you can’t blame the manufacturers/forwarders for trying to get their haulage costs as low as possible.
No, you can’t blame anybody for legally taking advantage of the most favourable trading conditions, but the problem is that we have spent the last twenty years systematically dismantling our manufacturing industry, not because it was unprofitable but because it is more profitable to take advantage of the opportunity of arbitrage- essentially when Communism fell manufacturers discovered an army of third-world workers on the doorstep willing to work for a third of our wages.
A typical, and recent example is Cadbury’s plant at Keynsham. It was efficient and profitable, but it was simply more profitable to move the entire operation to Poland and lay off the 500 Keynsham workers, the majority of whom will now be on State Benefits. This is happening everywhere. The difference between the last recession and this one is that this time there will be no jobs to go back to this time.
If I had my way, third-party haulage would not be allowed. A load travelling from the UK to Spain would only be allowed to be carried by a British or Spanish haulier. What is the point of exporting our jobs and wealth to eastern Europe?
Harry Monk:
What is the point of exporting our jobs and wealth to eastern Europe?
The point is it makes money for those who own the company, it’s all do to with maximizing profits.
They don’t care about 500 workers in some part of the UK anymore than they care about 500 workers in Poland. Cadburys is now part of the giant Kraft food empire so why should they care provided we keep eating thier products.
Apparently we all wanted a free market, so we could have cheap goods and buy them using uncontrolled borrowing as the market would look after it and it was better for all of us.
We now find ourselves in a mess, because the bankers lent more money than thier companies could stand, governments didn’t regulate because they were told, by the bankers, that it stiffled business.
And the bankers are still getting bonuses and we are suffering, but of course it will happen again, as people have short memories and are stupid and greedy.
bristolron:
Saw some east european drivers who had been parked at an industrial estate all weekend recently.Before they moved off they went around and picked up all the litter some of which was probably not theirs. Was impressed really as cannot see a lot of others doing this.
Wouldn’t see ANY Brit drivers doing this!
The Brits are the worst litterers I have ever seen.
Now that the snow has melted up our way, I can see plastic bottles, beer bottles, pop cans, beer cans, seet wrappers, crisp wrappers etc all over the verges on the estates, NOT DONE BY FOREIGN DRIVERS.
A young lad on the TV news this week went to place a wreath at a roadside where some kids had died and he pulled the cellophane off the flowers and threw it straight in the grass.
As for ‘Eastern Europeans undercutting?’
It’s business, and the business owners in any country will try to make a profit at any expense.
"Harry Monk:
A typical, and recent example is Cadbury’s plant at Keynsham. It was efficient and profitable, but it was simply more profitable to move the entire operation to Poland and lay off the 500 Keynsham workers, the majority of whom will now be on State Benefits. This is happening everywhere. The difference between the last recession and this one is that this time there will be no jobs to go back to this time.
Harry I most times don’t disagree with you, but here the information is not correct to say the least, everybody who has been in Cadbury Somerdale plant in Keynsham knew that Cadbury didn’t put any money in there for at least the last 20 years, the boilerhouse is complete worn out, out of date by 40 years, the production lines are approx 60-70year old, and the factory didn’t produce any chocolate since 2007.
The factory is full of asbestos and would take 10th of millions at least to bring up to standard
They made finished goods but the chocolate was supplied from other factories.
Before the Kraft take-over, Cadfbury Somerdale was already planned to close and Cadbury was planning to use the factories they had bought in Poland (Wroclaw and Warswaza) in the earlier years of 2000.
The ground under the factory was effectivly sold before Kraft was even on the picture.
To avoid missunderstanding Cadbury was not a Brittish factory since it was noticed on the International stock market, and while a part of the Shweppes/Dr Pepper Snapple group, the was a lot of American money in it.
The director of Cadbury Plc (after the split of Schweppes, and bringing Bassets and the “Old Lion” Group under one umbrella called Cadbury Plc) was also American.
The company was ready to sell.
So as you can see, Kraft was not to blame, and could have been missleaded that there was a possibility that the Keynsham factory could stay open, but the damage was already done by “Buy Brittish, Buy Cadbury”
I believe that Kraft is a move forward and can see with my own eyes that they are investing a lot of money to bring Bournville factory into the 21 centuary. and with that a good future for a good and loyal workforce
muckles:
Harry Monk:
What is the point of exporting our jobs and wealth to eastern Europe?The point is it makes money for those who own the company, it’s all do to with maximizing profits.
They don’t care about 500 workers in some part of the UK anymore than they care about 500 workers in Poland. Cadburys is now part of the giant Kraft food empire so why should they care provided we keep eating thier products.
Exactly, but is this good for the UK economy? If nobody here is earning money, than how is anybody going to be able to buy Cadbury product?
Henry Ford’s philosophy was known as “Fordism” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordism and involved his workers being paid enough to stimulate the wider economy. This is the economic model we need now.
Harry Monk:
muckles:
Harry Monk:
What is the point of exporting our jobs and wealth to eastern Europe?The point is it makes money for those who own the company, it’s all do to with maximizing profits.
They don’t care about 500 workers in some part of the UK anymore than they care about 500 workers in Poland. Cadburys is now part of the giant Kraft food empire so why should they care provided we keep eating thier products.Exactly, but is this good for the UK economy? If nobody here is earning money, than how is anybody going to be able to buy Cadbury product?
Henry Ford’s philosophy was known as “Fordism” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordism and involved his workers being paid enough to stimulate the wider economy. This is the economic model we need now.
Reminds me of a story about a car plant boss showing a Union leader the new robots in the factory.
boss “These robots work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, don’t need breaks and don’t ask for pay rises”
Union leader “That’s great, but how many cars will they buy?”
Harry Monk:
A typical, and recent example is Cadbury’s plant at Keynsham. It was efficient and profitable, but it was simply more profitable to move the entire operation to Poland and lay off the 500 Keynsham workers, the majority of whom will now be on State Benefits. This is happening everywhere. The difference between the last recession and this one is that this time there will be no jobs to go back to this time.If I had my way, third-party haulage would not be allowed. A load travelling from the UK to Spain would only be allowed to be carried by a British or Spanish haulier. What is the point of exporting our jobs and wealth to eastern Europe?
Roger Carr received a knighthood today for engineering the sale of Cadbury to Kraft foods, but Cadbury in Poland is nothing new, I was taking fat and butter out there when I worked for Norman Lewis in the early 90’s
Since being a kid, many of my toys had exotic places stamped into the plastic, computers and transistors are built in Taiwan. Toys from Hong Kong and China, Korea and India.
I also remember delivering polythene granules into several toy manufacturers sites, Palitoy in Coalville, Denys Fisher in Wetherby and Triang Hornby.
If we want cheap items and food, it is us who are fuelling the move to cheaper haulage and manufacturing.
Wheel Nut:
Harry Monk:
A typical, and recent example is Cadbury’s plant at Keynsham. It was efficient and profitable, but it was simply more profitable to move the entire operation to Poland and lay off the 500 Keynsham workers, the majority of whom will now be on State Benefits. This is happening everywhere. The difference between the last recession and this one is that this time there will be no jobs to go back to this time.If I had my way, third-party haulage would not be allowed. A load travelling from the UK to Spain would only be allowed to be carried by a British or Spanish haulier. What is the point of exporting our jobs and wealth to eastern Europe?
Roger Carr received a knighthood today for engineering the sale of Cadbury to Kraft foods, but Cadbury in Poland is nothing new, I was taking fat and butter out there when I worked for Norman Lewis in the early 90’s
Since being a kid, many of my toys had exotic places stamped into the plastic, computers and transistors are built in Taiwan. Toys from Hong Kong and China, Korea and India.
I also remember delivering polythene granules into several toy manufacturers sites, Palitoy in Coalville, Denys Fisher in Wetherby and Triang Hornby.
If we want cheap items and food, it is us who are fuelling the move to cheaper haulage and manufacturing.
Yes, my experience too. I guess we are of a similar age (I’m 51)
But is it not time to realise that this policy may have been a mistake? For the last 20 years we have been peddling the illusion that you can create wealth simply by using wealth- that you can go on holiday to Las Vegas simply by virtue that your house earned more than you did last year, and that increased value is money of yours to spend?
Harry Monk:
It is mostly because wages of drivers and office staff, and other operating costs are far lower for a haulier based in eastern Europe. An eastern European driver will typically spend several weeks in western Europe at a time, running loads, say, from the UK to Spain.
not unlike brits doing internals in saudi a while back 
Its not the East Europeans fault,its buisness sense. Before I started driving I worked for 10 years at Coutaulds Textiles and within 3 years all the factories in the uk had gone and production moved to Sri Lanka, reason, average wage at Courtaulds in uk £250 a week, Sri Lanka £3 a week. All companies have directors and/or shareholders to keep happy. Not saying its right or that I agree with it,but theres buggerall that can really be done about it.
dowahdiddyman:
All companies have directors and/or shareholders to keep happy. Not saying its right or that I agree with it,but theres buggerall that can really be done about it.
We could cut their heads off! 
If you look at the statistics from vosa when there has been checks it is the foreign operators doing the most wrong,everything from hours to overloading and yes magnents so take your rose tinted glasses off,when you live in this country it takes untill may or somthing to pay the tax man then there is your rates, water rates ,transport to work and thank god I DONT USE THE TRAIN
British hauliers invented undercutting and have perfected the art. Back in the early 70’s it was the middle east and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Trucks were abandoned all the way there because drivers ran out of funds to finance the trip. When they eventually got back to the UK they discovered that their employer had disappeared.
I was working for Hertz Truck Rental at the time and we had to get permission before renting units to any new customers.
We are only moaning because someone has copied our idea.
caledoniandream:
Harry I most times don’t disagree with you, but here the information is not correct to say the least, everybody who has been in Cadbury Somerdale plant in Keynsham knew that Cadbury didn’t put any money in there for at least the last 20 years, the boilerhouse is complete worn out, out of date by 40 years, the production lines are approx 60-70year old, and the factory didn’t produce any chocolate since 2007.
The factory is full of asbestos and would take 10th of millions at least to bring up to standard
They made finished goods but the chocolate was supplied from other factories.
I can confirm all of the above. The dairy I pulled out of supplied condensed milk to Keynsham and the discharge point was next to the one for the choccy tankers directly opposite the main entrance under a canopy at the side of the building. I’d regularly be sat behind one. Some of the chocolate tankers were loaded at OCG Cacao in Worksop (I delivered choc crumb there for said dairy). In addition to that, they had choc tankers and crumb delivered from Barry Callebauts at Banbury.
It was a nice tip. Used to get unloaded by a guy called Steve who lost both his lower legs and had falsies fitted. We had to discharge 20 tonnes into grundys which was just mad as they didn’t have a silo. Biggest regret wasn’t blagging one of the bags of chocolate left from when they disconnected the hoses. The bags were put in plastic boxes and you’d end up with a solid block of chocolate 1ftx2ftx6". MMMmmm
Conor:
It was a nice tip. Used to get unloaded by a guy called Steve who lost both his lower legs and had falsies fitted. We had to discharge 20 tonnes into grundys which was just mad as they didn’t have a silo. Biggest regret wasn’t blagging one of the bags of chocolate left from when they disconnected the hoses. The bags were put in plastic boxes and you’d end up with a solid block of chocolate 1ftx2ftx6". MMMmmm
Exactly the reason why I have occasionally been likened to a small African country or a beached whale 