E petition to reduce working day

I only do driving days a few times per week - this is through my choice. Given that I only do these few days per week, the companies who I work for, quite rightly, take advantage of my available hours and give me 15 hour days and ten hour drives and reduced rest etc. So in other words, really pushing things to the limit. Whilst I do not mind this as it enables me to do 40+ hours in a few days, I am also aware there are full time drivers who are doing the maximum hours they can week in and week out.

I personally think working like this is extremely bad for ones health and I am also not convinced that it is safe especially when you get the scenario of a driver who has worked a 15 and then has an hours drive to his home only to start nine hours later…it just does not seem right.

I haven’t signed it because at the moment it suits me…but in the unlikely event of me doing it full time, then yes, I would sign it.

‘‘This industry will never change as long as there are members of the Wooden Lorry Club banging on and on about how in their day they were expected to drive for four days without a break and all in a Scammell with metal seats’’
.
.
. We real lorry drivers never ever had metal seats … wooden ones yea but … :wink:

damoq:
Instead of signing a petition because you don’t like long hours, why not choose a job where you aren’t maxing your hours week after week. There are jobs out there like builders merchants or pallet network stuff where you only do 9 or 10hrs a day Max. I chose pallet network because I wasn’t interested in long hours. Plenty of others don’t mind the long hours, so who am I to disagree with them.

This is true i do 6-30 to 4-30 monday to friday and every othrr saturday morning. It suits me down to the ground.
Look at stobart they tried to do away with trampers but the fact is the flexibility of trampers is needed in the industury.
Theres jobs to suit most people in the greater schemr of haulage but tramping on distance work will never be 9-5 monday to friday.
Look at other low skill jobs which is what lorry driving is in reality. The much lauded shelf stacker will more than likely do unsociable hours as the hours and busy times in suprrmarkets dictate this and go make wages up they will often do overtime.

bazstan009:

Carryfast:
If any form of road transport couldn’t make more use of an increase in the driving time limit together with offsetting that with a cut in the total day to 12 hours then that seems to point to a productivety issue in the industry assuming productivety is based on the usual tonne/mile of freight shifted figure.

There may well be productivity issues but these are not going to be rectified by shortening the duty hours, i seldom max drive time but most days max duty.

The regulations are a compromise and apply euro wide to a diverse industry, reaching a consensus on here would be a challenge.

That’s the point I’m making.The regs are ‘actually’ a compromise that limit driving time while at the same time over extending the total day hours to compensate for what is a productivety issue in that trucks are spending too long parked up waiting,loading,or tipping etc.It’s wrong to then reach the erroneous conclusion that fatigue isn’t a result of the length of time someone has been awake for as opposed to how long they’ve driven for and that such a system adds to the risks of that.

Duty time should replace driving time with no opt out

Carryfast:

bazstan009:

Carryfast:
If any form of road transport couldn’t make more use of an increase in the driving time limit together with offsetting that with a cut in the total day to 12 hours then that seems to point to a productivety issue in the industry assuming productivety is based on the usual tonne/mile of freight shifted figure.

There may well be productivity issues but these are not going to be rectified by shortening the duty hours, i seldom max drive time but most days max duty.

The regulations are a compromise and apply euro wide to a diverse industry, reaching a consensus on here would be a challenge.

That’s the point I’m making.The regs are ‘actually’ a compromise that limit driving time while at the same time over extending the total day hours to compensate for what is a

productivety issue in that trucks are spending too long parked up waiting,loading,or tipping etc.It’s wrong to then reach the erroneous conclusion that fatigue isn’t a result of the length of time someone has been awake for as opposed to how long they’ve driven for and that such a system adds to the risks of that.

All well and good but to many logistics and warehouses use trucks as cheap storage.

ThrustMaster:
It’s easy to see the drivers who are up to their eyes in debt. :unamused: :unamused:

can you explain how?
why should I have the the choice to work 15 hrs removed by anyone with a week will that is unable to stand up for themselves
If you don’t want to work 15 or are not up to it then don’t, I don’t need the law changing as I have a mind of my own!

15 hours? In one day? Er no thanks!

Moose:

ThrustMaster:
It’s easy to see the drivers who are up to their eyes in debt. :unamused: :unamused:

can you explain how?
why should I have the the choice to work 15 hrs removed by anyone with a week will that is unable to stand up for themselves
If you don’t want to work 15 or are not up to it then don’t, I don’t need the law changing as I have a mind of my own!

But are you better of working those hours or do you just think you are

it’s having the flexibility to use the full 15 when needed, ie tonight doing a load for another haulier in their vehicle then tomorrow doing a load on my own truck, how fast I tip and get done tonight gives me a start time for Tuesday, if I am late finishing I can use a 15 hour shift and work straight through, so not having the choice and having to drop a load could take £170/200 out of my pocket!
you don’t need a calculator to work that out!

Hi.
Just work your minimum hrs,earn just enough to put a crust on the table,you have my word on this,you will have your “Pension” made up with Pension Credits to a level not far below what the chap who has worked long hours and been away from home. What you will NOT have,are some of lifes little luxuries,holidays abroad,c/van,m/home,things that require just that bit of extra effort.
It is easy for me to want things to stay as they are,i loved climbing into the cab,tramping,every day an adventure,where will i be tonight. So i was never trapped in the cab against my will,but off,exploring,most people with half a brain knows lorry driving is long hours,poor social life,so why come into it ?. I would like the firePERSONS!/police PERSONS! wages and conditions,but the idea of running towards a burning building,or taking on a crowd of drunks without a sub machine gun,is a non starter for me,so i didn’t go for those jobs.
Back to the 35/40 hr week,the wife was allways on about this one, that one,home at 17.30-18.00 hrs,quote,“They are only a couple of bob behind you,and you doing nearly two weeks work”.She wasn’t there when you would pull up at a wharehouse on a sunny day,strip your sheets off,sun bathe on them till it was your turn to tip,and the w/house chap say,"It’s all right for you,good job your,easy life,i am STUCK IN HERE, with just four brick walls to look at each day.
But two things,i was a round peg in a round hole,and i am posting this from our place in Portugal,been nice today,the Satsumas are nearly ripe and the Kiwi fruit will be ready for Christmas/New year.
Work your 35 hr week,but don’t EVER think you are going to get 50-60 hrs money,what you haven’t made by the time you are 50,will be harder to get,GET it now!
hulltramper… Retired.(At 70!,now 74+bit)

PS If you could get the wife to let me back out there again,on the Frog n’Toad,there is a GOOD drink in it for you.!

kr79:

Carryfast:

bazstan009:

Carryfast:
If any form of road transport couldn’t make more use of an increase in the driving time limit together with offsetting that with a cut in the total day to 12 hours then that seems to point to a productivety issue in the industry assuming productivety is based on the usual tonne/mile of freight shifted figure.

There may well be productivity issues but these are not going to be rectified by shortening the duty hours, i seldom max drive time but most days max duty.

The regulations are a compromise and apply euro wide to a diverse industry, reaching a consensus on here would be a challenge.

That’s the point I’m making.The regs are ‘actually’ a compromise that limit driving time while at the same time over extending the total day hours to compensate for what is a

productivety issue in that trucks are spending too long parked up waiting,loading,or tipping etc.It’s wrong to then reach the erroneous conclusion that fatigue isn’t a result of the length of time someone has been awake for as opposed to how long they’ve driven for and that such a system adds to the risks of that.

All well and good but to many logistics and warehouses use trucks as cheap storage.

Which then means that drivers are used as a standby workforce or even warehouse personnel over the course of,what should be,the limits of a total day and then expected to drive in addition to that by extending that total day.All based on the bs idea that it’s only actual driving time that matters in contributing to the fatigue risk on the road.With the lose lose situation that the lost productivety in miles run affects the operators profit margins.While also resulting in a relatively low hourly rate for the driver to keep the job economically viable.

There’s a difference of opinion here that only goes to show how big the gulf between a steering wheel attendant and a lorry driver is.

Steering wheel attendants don’t have any romantic ideas about the job, it is simply the way they earn a living and most of them seem to be unhappy.

Lorry drivers understand the job and despite all its shortcomings, they still enjoy what they do.

My opinion is that a lot of what I class as the shortcomings are only there because of the steering wheel attendants, things like not being able to do the job without risk assessments, excessive H&S, the WTD, etc etc etc…

newmercman:
There’s a difference of opinion here that only goes to show how big the gulf between a steering wheel attendant and a lorry driver is.

Steering wheel attendants don’t have any romantic ideas about the job, it is simply the way they earn a living and most of them seem to be unhappy.

Lorry drivers understand the job and despite all its shortcomings, they still enjoy what they do.

My opinion is that a lot of what I class as the shortcomings are only there because of the steering wheel attendants, things like not being able to do the job without risk assessments, excessive H&S, the WTD, etc etc etc…

I’m not sure that’s true, or at least as simple as you make it out to be.
I’ve wanted to drive lorries for as long as I can remember, maybe from when I was four or five. There’s no history of it in my family, trucks just grabbed me from when I was in my pushchair. I did all the things I was expected to do … went to a good school, went to university and did a degree and a postgrad degree, then at the end of all that I can still remember thinking “right. Now to get my HGV licence”. Which I did.
I’ve now been driving full time for 15 years. In that time I’ve done fridges, curtainsiders, flats, trombones, long loads and wide loads, tankers, box vans and low loaders. I’ve been tramping, done multidrop on days and nights, done ADR work, been trunking, done home deliveries and deliveries to high street shops. I still see trucks parked up at night with the curtains shut and get carried away with the romance of it, and I still get a sense of mystery when I see a long line of amber marker lights on a distant motorway, all heading for who knows where. (Even though I know most of them are night trunkers just like me, all going to the same old place they go every night!) I still love driving trucks. In short, I’m a driver and I have diesel in my veins.
But, I don’t like working silly hours and I’m afraid I can’t see why it’s necessary in this day and age for anyone to be working more than about twelve hours a day, at most. I’ll do it if I have to and I won’t complain about it, but if an opportunity arises to put a stop to the long hours culture, I’ll grab it with both hands. I don’t think any of us would mind working long hours if the financial rewards were there, but increasingly the long hours culture is used as an excuse to keep wages low and exploit our labour as much as possible. How many of us are salaried and still putting in days which would see us earning a fortune if we were hourly paid with a proper rate of overtime after eight hours? I was in my last job: £26000 a year for 60+ hours every week. I once worked out I was on about six quid an hour, if that.
That’s why the long hours culture needs to change: because the hours have remained much as they always were, while the wages have diminished considerably. If we’re to be paid less, fine: just let us work less as well! It’s got nothing to do with whether you’re a “proper” driver or not, just whether you’re switched on enough to realise that your pride in the job is being exploited.

Rhythm Thief:

newmercman:
There’s a difference of opinion here that only goes to show how big the gulf between a steering wheel attendant and a lorry driver is.

Steering wheel attendants don’t have any romantic ideas about the job, it is simply the way they earn a living and most of them seem to be unhappy.

Lorry drivers understand the job and despite all its shortcomings, they still enjoy what they do.

My opinion is that a lot of what I class as the shortcomings are only there because of the steering wheel attendants, things like not being able to do the job without risk assessments, excessive H&S, the WTD, etc etc etc…

I’m not sure that’s true, or at least as simple as you make it out to be.
I’ve wanted to drive lorries for as long as I can remember, maybe from when I was four or five. There’s no history of it in my family, trucks just grabbed me from when I was in my pushchair. I did all the things I was expected to do … went to a good school, went to university and did a degree and a postgrad degree, then at the end of all that I can still remember thinking “right. Now to get my HGV licence”. Which I did.
I’ve now been driving full time for 15 years. In that time I’ve done fridges, curtainsiders, flats, trombones, long loads and wide loads, tankers, box vans and low loaders. I’ve been tramping, done multidrop on days and nights, done ADR work, been trunking, done home deliveries and deliveries to high street shops. I still see trucks parked up at night with the curtains shut and get carried away with the romance of it, and I still get a sense of mystery when I see a long line of amber marker lights on a distant motorway, all heading for who knows where. (Even though I know most of them are night trunkers just like me, all going to the same old place they go every night!) I still love driving trucks. In short, I’m a driver and I have diesel in my veins.
But, I don’t like working silly hours and I’m afraid I can’t see why it’s necessary in this day and age for anyone to be working more than about twelve hours a day, at most. I’ll do it if I have to and I won’t complain about it, but if an opportunity arises to put a stop to the long hours culture, I’ll grab it with both hands. I don’t think any of us would mind working long hours if the financial rewards were there, but increasingly the long hours culture is used as an excuse to keep wages low and exploit our labour as much as possible. How many of us are salaried and still putting in days which would see us earning a fortune if we were hourly paid with a proper rate of overtime after eight hours? I was in my last job: £26000 a year for 60+ hours every week. I once worked out I was on about six quid an hour, if that.
That’s why the long hours culture needs to change: because the hours have remained much as they always were, while the wages have diminished considerably. If we’re to be paid less, fine: just let us work less as well! It’s got nothing to do with whether you’re a “proper” driver or not, just whether you’re switched on enough to realise that your pride in the job is being exploited.

The best comment I have seen anywhere on the forums to date

Another thread full of comments by whiney girls. Getting a very pathetic place in here.

That is a well rounded answer Rhythm Thief, however economics are the answer to your question.

I referred to it earlier as madness, but it is what it is, we go to work for money in return for services provided. We spend some of that money on services and goods that we and others like us provide. It’s a circle of sorts, we are given something (money) which we swap for something (goods and services) in the old days before money we were given, say three bags of carrots and a bag of apples, which we swapped for other things, so this concept has been around for some time.

Now nobody wanted a monopoly on carrots and apples, but money is a different story. 99% of the world’s money is ‘owned’ by 1% of the world’s population. People like Beckham or Schumacher are not in that 1%, they may have millions, but it only puts them at the top of the 99% with SFA, so to speak.

The 1% do not want to share their fortunes, so they pay us just enough to buy the products and services they provide, they also allow a Beckham or Schumacher to ‘succeed’ to drive us 99% to work harder.

So what has this got to do with drivers hours I hear you ask.

Simple, if we work less, we earn less, so we buy less. Hold on I hear you say, extra drivers will be required, so the balance is restored and to a point it would be, except it would require devaluation of things as current prices would be too high. The volumes would compensate though.

Now you’re saying I’m talking out of my arse, a few thousand lorry drivers won’t make a difference to the world economy and you would be correct, except for one thing. Government!

Government has no money, except from taxes, lower wages mean less tax, ok so more drivers means more tax, so it balances, but it doesn’t because of tax thresholds, we all earn a certain amount before being taxed, so more money will be untaxed.

Do you think the government will spend any less? They won’t, so they’ll increase taxes on those that are higher paid, this has a double effect, one it reduces their spending power and two it removes the incentive for them to work, what starts with lorry drivers will spread into other industries and the economy will crash.

This will ■■■■ off the 1% and they’ll instruct their puppet governments to do something to rectify the situation so that their pots of gold continue to be filled from the fruit’s of our labour.

Long story, but the short answer is…get used to 60hrs a week as it won’t be changing until robots replace lorry drivers!

No chance :open_mouth: I rarely do more than 10 hours but I want the option to should I choose. Mostly to cover rare delays or road closures. I’d rather use 15 to get home than get stuck on a night out :unamused:

If your running yourself ragged the solution isn’t lack of regulation more lack of testicles :wink:

newmercman:
That is a well rounded answer Rhythm Thief, however economics are the answer to your question.

I referred to it earlier as madness, but it is what it is, we go to work for money in return for services provided. We spend some of that money on services and goods that we and others like us provide. It’s a circle of sorts, we are given something (money) which we swap for something (goods and services) in the old days before money we were given, say three bags of carrots and a bag of apples, which we swapped for other things, so this concept has been around for some time.

Now nobody wanted a monopoly on carrots and apples, but money is a different story. 99% of the world’s money is ‘owned’ by 1% of the world’s population. People like Beckham or Schumacher are not in that 1%, they may have millions, but it only puts them at the top of the 99% with SFA, so to speak.

The 1% do not want to share their fortunes, so they pay us just enough to buy the products and services they provide, they also allow a Beckham or Schumacher to ‘succeed’ to drive us 99% to work harder.

So what has this got to do with drivers hours I hear you ask.

Simple, if we work less, we earn less, so we buy less. Hold on I hear you say, extra drivers will be required, so the balance is restored and to a point it would be, except it would require devaluation of things as current prices would be too high. The volumes would compensate though.

Now you’re saying I’m talking out of my arse, a few thousand lorry drivers won’t make a difference to the world economy and you would be correct, except for one thing. Government!

Government has no money, except from taxes, lower wages mean less tax, ok so more drivers means more tax, so it balances, but it doesn’t because of tax thresholds, we all earn a certain amount before being taxed, so more money will be untaxed.

Do you think the government will spend any less? They won’t, so they’ll increase taxes on those that are higher paid, this has a double effect, one it reduces their spending power and two it removes the incentive for them to work, what starts with lorry drivers will spread into other industries and the economy will crash.

This will ■■■■ off the 1% and they’ll instruct their puppet governments to do something to rectify the situation so that their pots of gold continue to be filled from the fruit’s of our labour.

Long story, but the short answer is…get used to 60hrs a week as it won’t be changing until robots replace lorry drivers!

Ironically for that argument 60 hours a week total including all the waiting bs is a 12 hour day 5 days per week. :bulb: :wink: :laughing:

As for steering wheel attendants the idea of a 9/10 hours per day limit on driving time with a 15 hour limit on total shift time seems to me to be more suited to the ‘steering wheel attendants’ than the ‘drivers’.While ironically the longer a truck is sitting going nowhere with it’s ‘diver’ being paid the less everyone is earning from it including it’s operator. :unamused: :laughing:

dozy:
Signed,wouldn’t of in the past,but I just think these days I want to go home,8 hrs would be enough for me.
Think there should be option to continue if you want,I don’t want to do 13/14/15 hrs anymore,but wouldn’t want to stops the lads who do,that’s there choice

+++1 my opinion exactly dozy I don’t want 15 hr days but I would never stop the chaps that do the problem is there is no get out clause and most employers want that extra from there drivers its something that will be getting talked about for many years to come and I cant see any sensible way out but saying your a truck driver so put up with it or get another job isn’t the answer either I could say if you want to work silly hrs get a job were the hrs arnt regulated .