Dropped Trailer Whoopsie

Evil8Beezle:

Carryfast:
As I said the problem is that it introduces the variables of running out of unit height adjustment before the legs are clear of the ground and it not being noticed and/or the hit or miss small amount of distance tolerance between the pin fouling the jaws of the fifth wheel or not as it’s lifted leading to exactly the type of scenario described by animal.

The fact is artics aren’t supposed to be coupled in a similar way as demounts are picked up.The coupling process needs to start with the trailer sitting lower than the height of the fifth wheel and it being picked up by the rearward movement of the unit ramps and/or fifth wheel against the trailer.No ifs no buts and certainly not giving a zb about a bit of grease being shifted off the fifth wheel as part of that process.

Well doesn’t that just mean the trailer was dropped high and needs lowering?
So the issue is not whether you run the trailer up the runners, or pick it up with the suspension, as in either case you will have have to lower the trailer. And if you normally rely on just ramming the the truck at the trailer to run it up the bars, you’re putting yourself in a position where you’re more likely to remodel the back of the cab because you took your eye off the ball one time. (I’ve never done or seen this method, but would assume you need to give it a bit of welly?)
But if you always pick the trailer up with the suspension, you will see you have a problem when the trailer doesn’t lift.

Sorry Beaver! :smiley:

Assuming that you’re putting a unit under a trailer that’s intentionally sitting much higher than the fifth wheel you’ve obviously lost much of that height reference point anyway.In the real world it’s then more likely to be a case of at best optimistic,or at worse wishful,thinking that the trailer isn’t actually sitting higher than that of the unit’s height adjustment limit.Especially if the two are very close thereby fooling the driver that the legs are clear of the ground when it’s lifted,when in fact they aren’t.

Added to which is that issue of the fifth wheel being too far under as the the unit is lifted thereby fouling the pin against the jaws creating another mis couple scenario.

As for the amount of force needed to couple a unit and trailer using the usual rule of lower trailer than fifth wheel height,it’s usually just a measure of trailer weight in which even if it’s loaded at max is no big deal given a sympathetic approach.While certainly providing a better guarantee of pin and jaws height alignment than trying to couple an artic in a similar way as picking up a demount box.

Evil8Beezle:
I’ve clearly a lot to learn, as I’d never back on to a trailer without dropping the suspension first. Followed by ensuring I’d lifted the trailer up before completing the pin locking. I wasn’t aware that rough or uneven ground could also be a factor, but that’s not really an issue in our yard…

I’ve been told that the pin depth can vary on some trailers, and this coupled with the ability to move the 5th wheel, makes me always get out and check how much further I’ve got to go before I remodel the back of the truck! :laughing:

I was also a bit surprised that when Ash spent a day with me, that he wasn’t shown/told to lift the trailer when backing in during his trainer. As it turns out, the suspension was knackered on his training vehicle, so the only way he could hitch up during his training was to run the trailer up the running bars (if that’s the right name for them). And talking about running bars, I’ve seen at least one unit without these, which just seems crazy considering the consequences of not having them! :open_mouth:

We have a ■■■■ hole of a yard near hams hall and you could go under the trailer lift it up continue back but the rear end could drop down in a massive crater therefore causing you to miss the pin!! It’s happened!! More so when dark and lashing with rain, as you don’t know how deep some of these craters actually are unless you have seen the place in the dry and daylight!!

Claretmac:
We have a [zb] hole of a yard near hams hall and you could go under the trailer lift it up continue back but the rear end could drop down in a massive crater therefore causing you to miss the pin!! It’s happened!! More so when dark and lashing with rain, as you don’t know how deep some of these craters actually are unless you have seen the place in the dry and daylight!!

I’ve yet to experience a crater filled yard, so hadn’t really considered that…
So thanks, I’ll try and keep that in mind! :smiley:

Carryfast:
The fact is artics aren’t supposed to be coupled in a similar way as demounts are picked up.The coupling process needs to start with the trailer sitting lower than the height of the fifth wheel and it being picked up by the rearward movement of the unit ramps and/or fifth wheel against the trailer.No ifs no buts and certainly not giving a zb about a bit of grease being shifted off the fifth wheel as part of that process.

What utter ■■■■■■■■. We had cart springs when I started and air suspension was an absolute godsend. I was put on a half-day course about it and we were warned about all the pitfalls (dropping a trailer too high or too low etc. and also the problem where the air leaks out of the rear suspension, raising the front). Trailers should be dropped at running height - the legs wound down just short of the ground. When backing under, you lower the unit, reverse halfway, and stop. Get out with the remote control and raise the unit until the legs are clear. Then carry on as normal. There is no other correct way.

Not wishing to cause even more controversey but I never leave 2 inches to spare.
Totally pointless its either all the way in or not at all.

Simply wind the legs down till they touch the ground do the other stuff jump in the unit pull off a bit then lower the suspension to complete the uncouple and jobs a good un…

If the grounds good apart from a slight bowing of the front end if loaded then the trailer will be fine and well within the realms of air suspension adjustment for another driver to pick up.

To start buggering about leaving a few inches off the ground is just daft, support a bit of the weight then uncouple and away you go.

Carryfast

I find your lack of faith disturbing.jpg

Now CF me old mate, i wasn’t going to get involved in this now you’re on another crusade, but i’m afraid the young lads are doing it right and i agree with Santa that you’re just plain wrong on this one mate…with one small proviso** which i’ll get to later on.

So, to groans of oh hell not again here we go.

The grease situation to which you refer in disparaging terms is actually a very valid one, a freshly serviced tractor might as well not have been serviced at all if you’re going to wipe 2lb of grease straight up the font of the rubbing plate; for one thing soon as you take the first tight turn it gets smeared all over and into the suzies and hydraulic hose (if left attached), and i don’t want to get into the rights and wrongs of hydraulic hoses semi permanently attached because its company procedure on ours.
Secondly, the grease isn’t doing it intended job; some places, such as where i work we have a regular trailer (tank in my case) so once coupled mone might stay connected for three weeks before a slight product variation or route/maintenance planning cause a trailer swap, being a tank the rubbing plate (whilst the king pin is as deep as a normal van/curtain sider) is quite narrow, and unless the service grease gets to where it was intended by the time service comes round again the king pin will be running dry and down to metal to metal in a few spaced arcs.
If i connect it myself and do the job as the lads above suggest the grease won’t be wasted or make a mess and will keep the plate/fifth wheel still well lubed for the full 6 weeks.

Back in the days of proper lorries (sorry lads had to get that one in :laughing:) with gearboxes and ■■■■■■■■■■■■■ etc under your bonnet giving you a decent semi much of the time when in full howl, the trailer king pin depths weren’t so far as they are now, that fresh grease that didn’t get wiped up the front of the rubbing plate didn’t get as much loss as it travelled the generally horter distances to the kin pin area.

Rubbing plates, vary a lot, they are not the huge flat plates you find on vans/curtains; on specialist trailers such as tanks and the now rare (apart from Stobarts short lived revival of circumcised semi trailer car transporters) semi trailer car transporters where the rubbing plate can be not much wider than the fifth wheel and i’ve seen many trailers where the rubbing plate is so narrow that a couple of valuable (Dipper Dave, you’re in here… :wink: :wink: ) inches of fifth wheel protrudes either side at all times.
In such cases as these especially but this also applies to all rubbing plate designs they can and do run dry during use so it makes sense to get that nice new grease where the mechanics intended it to go.

How many times have we, i know have experienced that strange sensation of the artic not wanting to tae corners, odd handling indeed even manifesting itself as being difficult to control on a badly worn (grooved) motorway, often enough here we’ve suggested to the complainant to check the fifth wheel cos its probably gone dry, i’ve actually had semi trailer (uncircumcised, with peak) car trasnporters where the fifth wheel has been screeching cos the plate had run bone dry during really wet and salty weather.
That grease needs to get to the rubbing plate.

Then we have the case of rubbing plates with cut outs, some rubbing plates, on tanks again for reasons of chassis build and some weight saving, are not solid from front edge right to the actual main rubbing plate around the king pin, you can find large sections missing if you look underneath (LAG tanks in particular, a very high quality product indeed) if you try to drop a tank with such cut outs without dumping air (so doing it as one would have on steels under full spring pressure) you can find that as the fifth wheel tilts back and the trailer ‘spits you out’ (Dipper Daaaave… :wink: :wink: ) the pick up ramps can get wedged into those cut outs and in extreme cases have punched holes through the the front of the chassis.
Similarly you imagine the scenario of picking one of these up the old (your) way its not as simple as it looked picking a tank up, its OK when its a regular one for you as you learn how to get it lined up via side light marker bars etc, but when its a different make tractor and trailer it can be a hit and miss affair, requiring several reverse it up close get out and have a look call yourself a plank cos you’re a good 6" out either side (DIIIPPPER DAAAAVE… :wink: :wink: ), you go pushing back like that and you can soon be in a right pickle.
Then you have the unenviable times you have to pick up such a trailer on the ■■■■ cos you simply don’t have the space to get the tractor unit in a straight line with the trailer, picking one like this up thats been dropped low can be a perilous affair…now you throw the aforesaid rubbing plate cut outs into the mix both for dropping and picking up procedures.

No i’m sorry mate but air suspension has been a Godsend in so many ways** for the dropping and picking up procedures and i have to concede** i’ve had to change my procedures to make the most of it but i’m glad i have.
We’d be idiots not to take advantage of being able to use such a device to make our coupling procedures cleaner, safer and kinder to the vehicles in all ways.

** just for the sake of argument i’m not entirely convinced that an air sprung tractor makes a more stable handling lorry than an steel sprung unit, but thats an argument for another day and not really one for the main forum, more like fodder for the old timers forum.
I’ve had steel sprung tractors that were more comfortable on the road than air sprung too, but i agree that generally its a better system with its versatility.**

Oh and by the way, its isn’t the height difference or not between a fifth wheel and kin pin which causes the false pick ups where the pin ends up on the jaws, it needs uneven ground where the king pin can trigger the jaws closing at a slight angle, the one and only time its happened to me (which thankfully i realised summat wasn’t right, dragged it down, checked and realised the problem so dropped and re-picked it up) was picking up a fully loaded loaded trailer dropped properly low old school steel spring style with a steel sprung tractor.
If you go in flat at the wrong height the jaws can’t lock on because the wider section of the pin isn’t triggering jaw lock properly.
This doesn’t mean to say that anyone should be anything but vigilant at all times and keep you wits about you, cos once its bounced off and caused whatever mayhem it will you can’t reset and go back to start like on a video game.

It took me some time to come to terms with air, didn’t get Santa’s valuable training, and to work out out how to get the best from air suspension when i came back to artics too, if thats any consolation CF old chap.

Here endeth todays waffle… :smiling_imp:

Evil8Beezle:
As for lifting the trailer before backing onto the pin, that’s what I always do as it’s the way I’ve been taught.
Doesn’t everyone do that?

…And here was me thinking that will be a simple question to answer. :laughing:

Santa:

Carryfast:
The fact is artics aren’t supposed to be coupled in a similar way as demounts are picked up.The coupling process needs to start with the trailer sitting lower than the height of the fifth wheel and it being picked up by the rearward movement of the unit ramps and/or fifth wheel against the trailer.No ifs no buts and certainly not giving a zb about a bit of grease being shifted off the fifth wheel as part of that process.

What utter ■■■■■■■■. We had cart springs when I started and air suspension was an absolute godsend. I was put on a half-day course about it and we were warned about all the pitfalls (dropping a trailer too high or too low etc. and also the problem where the air leaks out of the rear suspension, raising the front). Trailers should be dropped at running height - the legs wound down just short of the ground. When backing under, you lower the unit, reverse halfway, and stop. Get out with the remote control and raise the unit until the legs are clear. Then carry on as normal. There is no other correct way.

You’ve contradicted the idea that there is supposedly ‘no other way’ by reference to steel suspension.In which case let me guess you didn’t wind the trailer up higher than the fifth wheel height then put the unit under ‘half way’ then wind the trailer down onto the turntable and then reverse the thing onto the pin.In the hope that you hadn’t put the unit under far enough to foul the pin against the jaws of the fifth wheel when you lowered the trailer,all to save wiping some grease off the fifth wheel. :unamused:

Juddian:
Now CF me old mate, i wasn’t going to get involved in this now you’re on another crusade, but i’m afraid the young lads are doing it right and i agree with Santa that you’re just plain wrong on this one mate

All of which seems to be based on the catastrophic underestimation,that it’s not possible to mis couple a trailer because of a pin v jaws vertical misalignment on level ground,which trying to couple an artic in a similar way as picking up a demount body is likely to produce.Together with an equal underestimation of the routine frequency ( more or less daily in our case ),nature of fifth wheel greasing and the similar need to wash the stuff off of lines and catwalks as the need to keep the mirrors clean. :unamused: :confused:

Oh dear, and some fell on stony ground.

Why am I feeling this is all my fault? :open_mouth:

Now not wanting to throw another stick of dynamite onto the fire. :wink:
But how likely am I to come a truck that doesn’t have air suspension?

Evil8Beezle:
Why am I feeling this is all my fault? :open_mouth:

Now not wanting to throw another stick of dynamite onto the fire. :wink:
But how likely am I to come a truck that doesn’t have air suspension?

18 tonner maybe

26 tonner doubtful

Every artic I’ve ever sat in has had it, back to the 51 plate CF I trained in

Carryfast:
Firstly you’ve conveniently missed the point as to ‘why’ some space needs to be left under the legs when dropping the trailer.IE it’s there to increase the odds that the trailer will be left at the correct ‘lower’ than fifth wheel height when it’s picked up. And you conveniently miss the point that units can be raised AND lowered.

As for my ‘beef’ I thought I’d made that clear.In the fact that sooner or later one of these clean greaseless unit muppets will inevitably miscouple a trailer as described by animal and for the reasons I’ve provided and drop the thing in lane 2 of a busy running motorway.On that note,putting a unit under a trailer,that’s sitting at a ‘higher’ height that the fifth wheel ‘and then’ trying to couple it using a similar method as using a demount rigid,which is actually what is being described,is anything but safe. :unamused:

Are you one of these “reverse back at 20mph to make sure the pin is engaged” types? Are you the reason I keep getting given units with buckled and bent ramps? Are you one of the people who leave me with suzies covered in grease? Are you one of the people who scrape all the grease off the fifth wheel, causing handling problems?
Due diligence and proper checking of coupling, both aural (not oral Dipper Dave) and visual, should eliminate the risk of losing a trailer in lane two!

PS check Juddians post, its much better put than mine.

Evil8Beezle:
Why am I feeling this is all my fault? :open_mouth:

Because it is!!! :smiling_imp: :imp: :smiling_imp: :imp: :smiling_imp: :imp:

:grimacing:

Captain Caveman 76:

Carryfast:
Firstly you’ve conveniently missed the point as to ‘why’ some space needs to be left under the legs when dropping the trailer.IE it’s there to increase the odds that the trailer will be left at the correct ‘lower’ than fifth wheel height when it’s picked up. And you conveniently miss the point that units can be raised AND lowered.

As for my ‘beef’ I thought I’d made that clear.In the fact that sooner or later one of these clean greaseless unit muppets will inevitably miscouple a trailer as described by animal and for the reasons I’ve provided and drop the thing in lane 2 of a busy running motorway.On that note,putting a unit under a trailer,that’s sitting at a ‘higher’ height that the fifth wheel ‘and then’ trying to couple it using a similar method as using a demount rigid,which is actually what is being described,is anything but safe. :unamused:

Are you one of these “reverse back at 20mph to make sure the pin is engaged” types? Are you the reason I keep getting given units with buckled and bent ramps? Are you one of the people who leave me with suzies covered in grease? Are you one of the people who scrape all the grease off the fifth wheel, causing handling problems?
Due diligence and proper checking of coupling, both aural (not oral Dipper Dave) and visual, should eliminate the risk of losing a trailer in lane two!

PS check Juddians post, its much better put than mine.

Having spent 15 years on trunking with mostly artics involving multiple trailer swaps during a shift and using mostly steel suspension units no I don’t remember any units with bent ramps or coupling up any trailer not using the required amount of sympathy regarding correct control of the thing while reversing against the pin.While what I do remember from day 1 was the correct instruction by old school drivers to make sure that trailers were picked up at the correct ( lower ) height v fifth wheel to prevent mis couples and to drop the thing low enough to help with that situation the next time it was coupled up.As for the grease situation it was the fitters’ job to keep the fifth wheel greased and my job to wash it off the lines and catwalk.While in all those years I don’t remember having one mis coupled trailer.Unlike animal’s comments involving more than one in a year. :open_mouth: So I must have been doing something right. :unamused:

Carryfast:
Having spent 15 years on trunking with mostly artics involving multiple trailer swaps during a shift and using mostly steel suspension units no I don’t remember any units with bent ramps or coupling up any trailer not using the required amount of sympathy regarding correct control of the thing while reversing against the pin.While what I do remember from day 1 was the correct instruction by old school drivers to make sure that trailers were picked up at the correct ( lower ) height v fifth wheel to prevent mis couples and to drop the thing low enough to help with that situation the next time it was coupled up.As for the grease situation it was the fitters’ job to keep the fifth wheel greased and my job to wash it off the lines and catwalk. :unamused:

I think it’s been mentioned that ramps used to be more heavyweight than they are now, because NOW trucks have air suspension.
So banging on about what you do/did “back in the day” of springs, seems absolutely irrelevant to what you should do now.
And we have the benefits of air suspension, we no longer HAVE to put up with smearing grease all over the place, and can target it where it’s meant to go. It’s got to be simple, I’m grasping it! :smiley:

Evil8Beezle:

Carryfast:
Having spent 15 years on trunking with mostly artics involving multiple trailer swaps during a shift and using mostly steel suspension units no I don’t remember any units with bent ramps or coupling up any trailer not using the required amount of sympathy regarding correct control of the thing while reversing against the pin.While what I do remember from day 1 was the correct instruction by old school drivers to make sure that trailers were picked up at the correct ( lower ) height v fifth wheel to prevent mis couples and to drop the thing low enough to help with that situation the next time it was coupled up.As for the grease situation it was the fitters’ job to keep the fifth wheel greased and my job to wash it off the lines and catwalk. :unamused:

I think it’s been mentioned that ramps used to be more heavyweight than they are now, because NOW trucks have air suspension.
So banging on about what you do/did “back in the day” of springs, seems absolutely irrelevant to what you should do now.
And we have the benefits of air suspension, we no longer HAVE to put up with smearing grease all over the place, and can target it where it’s meant to go. It’s got to be simple, I’m grasping it! :smiley:

As I said animal seems to have followed the modern day ideas to the letter with obvious results.Unlike me in my time in which as I’ve said I didn’t differentiate coupling methods between steel or air. :wink:

Carryfast:

Santa:
You’ve contradicted the idea that there is supposedly ‘no other way’ by reference to steel suspension.In which case let me guess you didn’t wind the trailer up higher than the fifth wheel height then put the unit under ‘half way’ then wind the trailer down onto the turntable and then reverse the thing onto the pin.In the hope that you hadn’t put the unit under far enough to foul the pin against the jaws of the fifth wheel when you lowered the trailer,all to save wiping some grease off the fifth wheel. :unamused:

Idiot… Before air, we had to allow the trailer to drop a couple of inches so that we could back under the way you describe. This caused wear and damage and a greasy mess, that we had to put up with. Once we had air, we found a better way. It’s not just about grease, it’s about wear on the fifth wheel, avoiding damage to the front of the trailer and the back of the unit. It’s about doing it in a calm and efficient way without undue stress.

Roll you eyes out of your head if you like - I have no expectation of convincing you that you are wrong anyway. I just wanted to clarify, for anyone who was in any doubt, that there is a right way and a wrong way and yours is the wrong way.

Santa:

Carryfast:

Santa:
You’ve contradicted the idea that there is supposedly ‘no other way’ by reference to steel suspension.In which case let me guess you didn’t wind the trailer up higher than the fifth wheel height then put the unit under ‘half way’ then wind the trailer down onto the turntable and then reverse the thing onto the pin.In the hope that you hadn’t put the unit under far enough to foul the pin against the jaws of the fifth wheel when you lowered the trailer,all to save wiping some grease off the fifth wheel. :unamused:

Idiot… Before air, we had to allow the trailer to drop a couple of inches so that we could back under the way you describe. This caused wear and damage and a greasy mess, that we had to put up with. Once we had air, we found a better way. It’s not just about grease, it’s about wear on the fifth wheel, avoiding damage to the front of the trailer and the back of the unit. It’s about doing it in a calm and efficient way without undue stress.

Roll you eyes out of your head if you like - I have no expectation of convincing you that you are wrong anyway. I just wanted to clarify, for anyone who was in any doubt, that there is a right way and a wrong way and yours is the wrong way.

Are you for real.Do you really think that the ‘wear’ involved in putting the fifth wheel under a trailer is anything more than a drop in the ocean v the wear involved over a lifetime of normal running.While ‘if’ you’ve found a supposed better way we obviously wouldn’t be seeing numerous topics on here concerning mis coupled trailers let alone one driver describing having personally experienced more than one in a year.As for the greasy mess as I said that’s what the yard pressure washer is there for.