dont know if this has been asked already but, we are starting our driver cpc a week saturday, the firm is paying for the cpc but not paying us for doing it 
question is, does it count as working time if it is unpaid but held on company premises? ive a feeling it will but just want confirmation , thanx in advance boys and girls
largebloke1969:
dont know if this has been asked already but, we are starting our driver cpc a week saturday, the firm is paying for the cpc but not paying us for doing it
At least they are paying for the course, mines costing ÂŁ350+ and 5 days of no pay.
Somewhere on here is a letter statting what is working and not regarding the DCPC, I think it will be classed as working time
Hey,
Are the company paying for the CPC? If so I know from a few people, that the Company paid for the CPC and they had to do it in their own time (unpaid), though if you think about it, if you had to get the CPC off your own back, you would have to pay for the course plus do it in your own time (unpaid).
Gareth
This will answer your question I think. But let snot all start interpreting it in different ways. As I have said in previous posts, do not over complicate matters and donât add stuff in where there is no need.
This letter was a response directly from VOSA to a query to the exact same question. It was sent on VOSA headed letter head and signed by the lady who responded, which is a very rare thing these days.
Dear Malcolm
Thank you for your email of 7 December addressed to the Department for Transport. It has been passed to me to respond as the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) is responsible for enforcing driversâ hours legislation. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your correspondence.
The driversâ hours legislation states that a weekly rest period is a period during which drivers may freely dispose of their time. It is therefore the compulsory or voluntary nature of CPC training which determines whether or not it should be counted as working time.
Driver CPC training should be treated as working time if the driver is instructed to attend the training as part of their employment. If, however, a driver organises their own training and attends that training during their rest period or day off, then it is counted as rest like any other voluntary activity.
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I trust you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely,
Sally Cranney
largebloke1969:
dont know if this has been asked already but, we are starting our driver cpc a week saturday, the firm is paying for the cpc but not paying us for doing it
Youâre not free to dispose of your time as you wish on that day as the company requires you to attend the course so it is other work and will impact on your weekly rest.
Coffeeholic:
largebloke1969:
dont know if this has been asked already but, we are starting our driver cpc a week saturday, the firm is paying for the cpc but not paying us for doing itYouâre not free to dispose of your time as you wish on that day as the company requires you to attend the course so it is other work and will impact on your weekly rest.
at the end of the day the driver decides wether he goes or not reguardless to wether the company pays. its a very gray area depends how â â â â you want to be about it. i did mine paid 50/50 between company and me so as far as i am concerned it my time and not the company. 
wildfire:
Coffeeholic:
largebloke1969:
dont know if this has been asked already but, we are starting our driver cpc a week saturday, the firm is paying for the cpc but not paying us for doing itYouâre not free to dispose of your time as you wish on that day as the company requires you to attend the course so it is other work and will impact on your weekly rest.
at the end of the day the driver decides wether he goes or not reguardless to wether the company pays. its a very gray area depends how â â â â you want to be about it. i did mine paid 50/50 between company and me so as far as i am concerned it my time and not the company.
why is it a grey area.
if you have to attend the course then its other work. end of.
it makes no iota if its paid for by the firm and what day it is. its another penny pinching â â â â of a foirm that dont give a toss.
i would tell to go forth and multyply if they dont pay you 7hrs pay.
its the same as paying for damage to the truck . tell em to do one.
Won`t this question be covered during the course?? 
greggy:
wildfire:
Coffeeholic:
largebloke1969:
dont know if this has been asked already but, we are starting our driver cpc a week saturday, the firm is paying for the cpc but not paying us for doing itYouâre not free to dispose of your time as you wish on that day as the company requires you to attend the course so it is other work and will impact on your weekly rest.
at the end of the day the driver decides wether he goes or not reguardless to wether the company pays. its a very gray area depends how â â â â you want to be about it. i did mine paid 50/50 between company and me so as far as i am concerned it my time and not the company.
why is it a grey area.
if you have to attend the course then its other work. end of.
it makes no iota if its paid for by the firm and what day it is. its another penny pinching [zb] of a foirm that dont give a toss.
i would tell to go forth and multyply if they dont pay you 7hrs pay.
its the same as paying for damage to the truck . tell em to do one.
if you were to be paid 7 hrs then the company they would be perfectly intitled to tie you to work for them for a set period or to repay the coarse fee if you left within that time.
i tell you what i ainât got a penny pinching boss, he is the best i have worked for in 20 yrs, and i personally would not expect him to pay for something that i have to have to enable me to keep driving, as i said it depends how â â â â some drivers want to be 
i have had one or two on here and i soon got them [zb] off out the door, i have a job to do and the last thing i need to deal with a winger
that has to moan from dawn to dusk, as for paying for damage it depends if someone did it on purpose, never been charged yet but then again never done any thing on purpose 
Just so happens i am running a DCPC course this Saturday where the drivers have been told to attend - but will not be getting paid but also donât have to pay for the training. None of the drivers mind this and the MD.owner will also be taking part in the training.
I will be telling them it counts as working time as far as i am concerned but it is ultimately down to them or their boss - nowt to do with me. there i go sitting on that there fence. i will tell them what the âletter from VOSAâ says and let them decide what they do.
problem is - if it is counted as working time and they donât get paid - then next weekend they will likely need a 45 off and at some point within 3 weeks after the week in question they are going to need to compensate for the reduction - therefore they will lose earning potential. So it isnât in their favour to count it as working time - they would lose three times. once this weekend cos they aint getting paid, once next weekend when thy have to have a 45 and then later when they compensate.
But there are some that will charge for vehicle damage even when something wasnât your fault, infact there are some who will charge their employeeâs for damage they didnât do,
The company that i once worked for was well known for it
A typical scenario would be a driver having to jump into a truck after being on the road all day driving a van,or after being at the yard all day waiting for a job out on the road, being expected to drive a truck or van over the water to say Germany or Spain even
People when tired are more likely to be involved in accidents, which is something those (zbâs) in the office did not understand, So more often than not it was them you contributed to their vehicles ending up damaged,
And yes i know they could simply just refuse to do the job in those circumstances, But those that did got starved of work, and the jobs they did get where (zb) needless to say that there was a high staff turnover
tiger65:
This will answer your question I think. But let snot all start interpreting it in different ways. As I have said in previous posts, do not over complicate matters and donât add stuff in where there is no need.
This letter was a response directly from VOSA to a query to the exact same question. It was sent on VOSA headed letter head and signed by the lady who responded, which is a very rare thing these days.Dear Malcolm
Thank you for your email of 7 December addressed to the Department for Transport. It has been passed to me to respond as the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) is responsible for enforcing driversâ hours legislation. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your correspondence.
The driversâ hours legislation states that a weekly rest period is a period during which drivers may freely dispose of their time. It is therefore the compulsory or voluntary nature of CPC training which determines whether or not it should be counted as working time.
Driver CPC training should be treated as working time if the driver is instructed to attend the training as part of their employment. If, however, a driver organises their own training and attends that training during their rest period or day off, then it is counted as rest like any other voluntary activity.
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I trust you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely,
Sally Cranney
I wouldnât trust anything that bloke tells you 
Wheel Nut:
tiger65:
This will answer your question I think. But let snot all start interpreting it in different ways. As I have said in previous posts, do not over complicate matters and donât add stuff in where there is no need.
This letter was a response directly from VOSA to a query to the exact same question. It was sent on VOSA headed letter head and signed by the lady who responded, which is a very rare thing these days.Dear Malcolm
Thank you for your email of 7 December addressed to the Department for Transport. It has been passed to me to respond as the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) is responsible for enforcing driversâ hours legislation. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your correspondence.
The driversâ hours legislation states that a weekly rest period is a period during which drivers may freely dispose of their time. It is therefore the compulsory or voluntary nature of CPC training which determines whether or not it should be counted as working time.
Driver CPC training should be treated as working time if the driver is instructed to attend the training as part of their employment. If, however, a driver organises their own training and attends that training during their rest period or day off, then it is counted as rest like any other voluntary activity.
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I trust you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely,
Sally CranneyI wouldnât trust anything that bloke tells you
â â ? 
tommy t:
But there are some that will charge for vehicle damage even when something wasnât your fault, infact there are some who will charge their employeeâs for damage they didnât do,
The company that i once worked for was well known for it
A typical scenario would be a driver having to jump into a truck after being on the road all day driving a van,or after being at the yard all day waiting for a job out on the road, being expected to drive a truck or van over the water to say Germany or Spain evenPeople when tired are more likely to be involved in accidents, which is something those (zbâs) in the office did not understand, So more often than not it was them you contributed to their vehicles ending up damaged,
And yes i know they could simply just refuse to do the job in those circumstances, But those that did got starved of work, and the jobs they did get where (zb) needless to say that there was a high staff turnover
Not wishing to derail the thread, but given your location, reference to jumping from van to truck etc. & going over the water, all in a rather disorganised fashion, the letters G B and A spring to mind 
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I was running a DCPC course a couple of weeks ago on a Friday sfternoon/Saturday morning when in walked a JAUPT auditor unnanounced
She stayed for the whole 3.5 hours and was very knowledgable on tacho regs and the legal implications for drivers, and checked the course content thoroughly.
I was asked by one driver if the training was âother workâ or not as the firm provides it but doesnât pay him to attend.
I stated that as far as I was concerned it was, BUT there had been a recent letter circulating from VOSA to state that it wasnât, so my advice was to treat it as other work until a court ruling claryfied it.
She had a chat with me after the first half of the course ended and said that as far as they were concerned it certainly WAS classed as other work and the DSA advise that as well.
She also agreed with me that Trainers ( and JAUPT and DSA) donât stand a chance of giving out correct facts when two different VOSA area inspectors interpret the rules entirely differently.
Incidentally, I passed with flying colours 
Pat
bloodoodle:
If an employer organises non-compulsory training for drivers which takes place at weekends and where attendance is unpaid, it does not count as working time.
I was running a DCPC course a couple of weeks ago on a Friday sfternoon/Saturday morning when in walked a JAUPT auditor unnanounced
She stayed for the whole 3.5 hours and was very knowledgable on tacho regs and the legal implications for drivers, and checked the course content thoroughly.
I was asked by one driver if the training was âother workâ or not as the firm provides it but doesnât pay him to attend.
I stated that as far as I was concerned it was, BUT there had been a recent letter circulating from VOSA to state that it wasnât, so my advice was to treat it as other work until a court ruling claryfied it.
She had a chat with me after the first half of the course ended and said that as far as they were concerned it certainly WAS classed as other work and the DSA advise that as well.
She also agreed with me that Trainers ( and JAUPT and DSA) donât stand a chance of giving out correct facts when two different VOSA area inspectors interpret the rules entirely differently.
Incidentally, I passed with flying colours
Pat
The safest bet for a trainer is to state that the time is working time - simple. Not the trainers problem to ensure the driver abides by the rules is it?
I foolishly got into a âyes it isâ âno itâs isnâtâ âdiscussionâ with a driver at the beginning of a course - 20 minutes later we were still âdiscussingâ the matter. So now I just say it is working time but whether you record it or not is up to you - ask yer boss. Later on when discussing record keeping (if that is the course subject) we bring it up again.
it is clear that if they drive within a âweekâ they must keep records for any work on days prior to driving - but it doesnât clarify for days after that driving (or does it?). On the day of training they donât drive (if it is a classroom based course) - therefore not covered by Domestic Rules - but of course they are possibly working under instruction during their weekly rest. And of course because they have driven âin-scopeâ during that week they must abide by weekly rest requirements.
I donât think I have come across a driver yet who has any intention of making manual entries to record this working time (all my courses are held at weekends so i can still fit in my other job as a lollipop man during the week ). if a driver isnât being paid to attend - he will in most cases then lose money if he accounts for the time as working time. it seems to usualy be in the driversâ interest to âloseâ this time.
If it helps - I was also audited recently and the same discussion was had. the Auditor believed the training to be working time no matter the circumstances but was happy that I had said it was working time and left it for the drivers to decide what to do. We discussed it in depth and we ended up playing top trumps with our âqualificationsâ and it turned out he won because he was more qualified than me AND he worked for JAUPT therefore he knew what he was on about (apparently).
it is also interesting to note that JAUPT are sending auditors with relevant industry knowledge to audit the course content. They just send some jobs worth geek for Centre Audits (checking Quality Assurance, Diversity Policies and all that stuff) but have people with specialist knowledge for actual course audits.
Standards are most definitly being raised.
Pete
Standards are most definitly being raised.
And a very good thing it is too.
Not the trainers problem to ensure the driver abides by the rules is it?
I canât quite agree with that theory Pete, while it isnât my problem I do see it as my remit to advise them correctly.
Pat
bloodoodle:
Standards are most definitly being raised.
And a very good thing it is too.
Not the trainers problem to ensure the driver abides by the rules is it?
I canât quite agree with that theory Pete, while it isnât my problem I do see it as my remit to advise them correctly.
Pat
Either I didnât write what I meant or you misunderstood me . I tell them it is working time. Whether they then do the right thing is not my concern. it isnât my problem whether they abide by the rules.
if a driver tells me heâs not going to record the hours - Iâm not gonna send him home am I?
I think the point is that neither you nor I actually know what the correct answer is. VOSA donât seem to know. DSA/JAUPT donât seem to know. WHichever side we fall on (working time or not working time) some drivers will smile and others will frown.
My own personal belief is:
Paid to attend = working time
MADE to attend (paid or not) = working time
Driver arranges the course himself in his own time = NOT working time
But right now - Iâm going to tell them it IS working time and that they SHOULD record it as such and take whatever appropriate action with regard to rest periods etc.
thanx for the input chaps much appreciated
Nobody has bothered to mention that at the end of the 7 hour course is complete, your trainer or someone in the training centre has to upload the fact that you have been present and completed that module to DSA .
Did you know that VOSA have access to this information and should you get stopped by them and you donât declare ,when asked ,what you were doing on said day , ie CPC course, and they then find out that it has been done on a day that you declare as a rest day, lets say a Saturday, they will do you.
It is classed as a working day, because it is training to do with your vocational activity, as is ADR courses HI-AB training etc.