Does anyone bother with POA?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
121

buck rogers:
sorry then,to clarify,if im free to dispose of my time whichever way i choose,

NO.
BREAK = simply not working
REST = free to dispose of your time as you wish

The mode does not know the difference between BREAK & REST but the length of time it is in that mode does refer to either one or the other.

If the BREAK/REST mode is used for LESS than 9 hours then it is BREAK
If the BREAK/REST mode is used for 9 hours or MORE (if a reduced daily rest available) then it is REST

NOTE: - one exception (which is not used very often) - where a BREAK is less than 9 hours, but at least 3 hours of it is an unbroken period where a driver can dispose of their time as they wish, it can be used for a SPLIT DAILY REST

122

MADBAZ:
if I’m on a bay knowing I’m gonna be there for 4 hours, not taking part in any un/loading, if I put it on POA it doesn’t count towards a spread, if it’s on break/rest it does count, doesn’t it?

Neither POA or BREAK count towards ‘Working time’ (driving + other work)

The REST required within every period of 24 hours determines the maximum length of any shift (the start & finish times) or ‘spread’ as some like to call it

I’ll do examples for the situation in your quote as it may also help member buck rogers

FULL WEEKLY REST
Day 1 - Start 0600
other work til 0630
drive to RDC - 3 hours - now 0930
POA for 4 hours - now 1330
drive for 1.5 hours - now 1500
break for 45 mins - as max 4.5 driving time reached - now 1545
drive for 1.5 hours - now 1715
other work for 45 mins - now 1800
End shift - total WORK (driving + other work) = 7 hours and 15 mins - total shift time = 12 hours
Day 2 - Start new shift at 0400 so REDUCED DAILY REST of 10 hours
NOTE: - at 1500 a DIGI tacho may not tell you a driving break is needed as the silly things often count POA as BREAK !!

FULL WEEKLY REST
Day 1 - Start 0600
other work til 0630
drive to RDC - 3 hours - now 0930
BREAK for 4 hours but NOT able to freely dispose of the time - now 1330
drive for 3 hours - now 1630
other work for 45 mins - now 1715
End shift - total WORK (driving + other work) = 7 hours and 15 mins - total shift time = 11 hours 15 mins
Day 2 - Start new shift at 0400 so REDUCED DAILY REST of 10 hours 45 mins
NOTE - the break for 45 mins - as max 4.5 driving time reached is now not needed

FULL WEEKLY REST
Day 1 - Start 0600
other work til 0630
drive to RDC - 3 hours - now 0930
BREAK for 4 hours but IS able to freely dispose of the time - now 1330
drive for 3 hours - now 1630
other work for 45 mins - now 1715
End shift - total WORK (driving + other work) = 7 hours and 15 mins - total shift time = 11 hours 15 mins
Day 2 - Start new shift at 0400 so REST of 10 hours 45 mins + BREAK for 4 hours but IS able to freely dispose of the time for at least 3 consecutive hours = SPLIT DAILY REST = Full Daily rest
NOTE - again, the extra break for 45 mins - as max 4.5 driving time reached is now not needed and nor is the need for a reduced daily rest

I hope these examples help…

123

Lets get this right, when you are incharge of a vehicle there is noway you are free to dispose of your time how you wish…can you go for a couple of pints no, can you persue your hobby in most cases no,the poa is there so the vehicle can be utilised better and the driver able to work longer they got flexable working free or at least on the cheap .If these hours rules were there for safety there would be max 11 hour day , and a fourty hour week

124

Well said fuse! it’s just a way of getting more hours out of you in a day.

They brought the working time directive in, then realised that your 45hrs would be up by wednesday so they thought up P.O.A to say that the time at work when your doing nothing isn’t classed as working! good eh■■?

125

Don’t need POA to extend the shift time - BREAK will do that just as well

What is needed is a maximum shift time and the appropriate wages to go with it

126

What the hell is POA?? I have two modes on my tacho … driving and sleeping.

127

Rog your not going to belive it but i’m going to agree with you!

my idea is …10hr shifts but this can be extended to 12hrs twice a week.

overtime… time and half after 8hrs and double time on sundays, bank holidays,double time + day in lew.

but for this to work,proper hourly rates of pay would be needed.

And get rid of P.O.A. altogether. just driving mode and break mode…simple !

128

Rikki-UK:
…and if you are only waiting 12 minutes (for example) that break doesnt count and reverts to other work.

You’ve fallen into one of the myth traps there. It doesn’t revert to other work, it still break, just not a break long enough to count toward a tacho or WTD break. It is still a period of break which doesn’t count toward the 48 hour average or 60 hour maximum.

129

Wheel Nut:

Rikki-UK:
The one question I am asking? is it lack of knowledge or a wind up… you decide :laughing: I have my own opinion that no-one in this day and age can be that badly informed- plus IP tracker helps

Mr Hobbs is remarkably quiet on the subject of POA :stuck_out_tongue: especially since his latest post on these forums were today :laughing:

I was only on for a few minutes as I was on a dodgy free WiFi connection in Sittensen truckstop, kept losing the connection so I gave up and went to sleep.

130

Dafman:
what’s poa never use it.

Its a mode on the tacho, its a picture of a little square box with a line on it. And by pressing this mode whenever you aint driving it automaticaly stops you getting a bollocking for having to many breaks and enables you to be paid for 60 plus hours a week whilst only counting 48 hours or less working time !!! :smiley:

The whole thing is a pure con. Drive to pick up your Vehicle from another depot to start work, no go, has to be recorded. Sit as a passenger(co driver) in a truck whilst being paid and the hours don’t count as work but you get paid. Loads of people put it on POA when in a queue or on a bay when they shouldn’t (i.e they are not free to leave the workstation, they have to remain on site). And we wonder why everyones confused !!!
I used to love all the letters to the press at the time of the WTD implementation, from Billy of Barnsley…i’ve worked in this industry all my life and now some one is trying to limit the hours i work and i cant pay my mortgage i’m now quitting my job as a HGV driver, the EU has wrecked our lives and careers.
You couldnt make it all up !!!

131

There was a nugget of truth in TTXs rambling. VOSA are targeting drivers coming out of places like Aldi and Lidl where it is known that you have to tip yourself. I saw it on these very pages.

132

tofer:
There was a nugget of truth in TTXs rambling. VOSA are targeting drivers coming out of places like Aldi and Lidl where it is known that you have to tip yourself. I saw it on these very pages.

That’s the point I was going to make. When I was on fridges it was normal to go into the warehouse to help break the load down. Anyone putting his tacho on break (which many did) was risking prosecution.

If you are not doing any other work - then you can legally take it as a break.

133

tofer:
I saw it on these very pages.

Must be true then :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
To keep on topic - Im not a firm beliver of using POA, why would I want to lengthen an already long day?
However I had to use it the other night when I had a problem with my unit - I wasnt on break as I had just had one, I wasnt doing other work, I wasnt driving (and certainly not with a cab door that wouldnt shut :laughing: ) so POA it was :imp:

134

DAF95XF:
However I had to use it the other night when I had a problem with my unit - I wasnt on break as I had just had one, I wasnt doing other work, I wasnt driving (and certainly not with a cab door that wouldnt shut :laughing: ) so POA it was :imp:

So BREAK would be OK as well.

135

tofer:
There was a nugget of truth in TTXs rambling. VOSA are targeting drivers coming out of places like Aldi and Lidl where it is known that you have to tip yourself. I saw it on these very pages.

Well lets look at what was actually said in those ramblings :bulb:

TTX boy:
VOSA are now self funded that means they get no money from central goverment.
The only way they get money is by fines they impose on us drivers,brand new Ford Galaxys cost money.

VOSA officers are waiting outside RDCs and stopping trucks leaving and checking taco’s,drivers found to have taken a break inside the RDC could be fined.

You can not have a break while you are sat waiting to get on a bay and you cant have a break while you are being unloaded.

VOSA say that if your in a RDC,your working!

That is why you need to use POA.

I a wait your comments. :astonished:

VOSA are now self funded that means they get no money from central goverment.
The only way they get money is by fines they impose on us drivers,brand new Ford Galaxys cost money.

When in reality, VOSA has a planned income for 2009 /2010 of £196.4m which is divided into 3 main segments.

Direct Government Funding 12%

Statutory Fees and MOT receipts 82%

Interest and other income 6%

VOSA officers are waiting outside RDCs and stopping trucks leaving and checking taco’s,drivers found to have taken a break inside the RDC could be fined.

VOSA officers are also on the roads, in lay bys and in ports and rail terminals checking dangerous trucks and drivers working time breaches. It is their job after all and without them it would be carnage on the roads. Granted if you are working inside an RDC, a factory or a building site with your mode switch on break then you are falsifying a drivers record.

You can not have a break while you are sat waiting to get on a bay and you cant have a break while you are being unloaded.

You can have a break, make a sandwich, pot noodle, read a magazine, boil the kettle, call your boss and post silly comments on trucknet.

VOSA say that if your in a RDC,your working!

If VOSA told you that then the officer was mistaken. Again the mode switch can be on break, other work or POA depending on the circumstance. For instance the nice lady on reception tells you to go on bay 23 when the Latvian truck pulls off, unless your Latvian is reasonable you will not know how long that may be, she cannot tell you how long he will be until he is tipped so you cannot use POA. You can use break though. If she said open both curtains and get your straps off I will get them to tip you in the yard, then that would be other work

That is why you need to use POA.

As above, if you know the length of time you will be waiting, you are not opening curtains, wrapping sheets or rolling straps up or asking for paperwork in goods reception. You can use POA or BREAK

I a wait your comments. :astonished:

Ditto :stuck_out_tongue:

136

I use POA for two reasons.

Reason 1 - It doesn’t count toward the 48 hour average in the 17 week reference period. So if you work 17 weeks at 60 hours a week, you break the law. Use 12 hours worth of POA a week and you’re legal.

Reason 2 - It extends the 6 hour break rule. If you start work at 6am, ordinarily you need to take a 30 minute break at 12pm. If you have an hours worth of POA, your rest break can then be taken at 1pm. Use it to your advantage to get to where you need to be before you need to take the break. If nothing else it may allow you the time to park up outside a chippy rather than in a lay-by with no food!

There are some agencies that don’t pay for Breaks, so if you have breaks on your tacho it goes unpaid. POA doesn’t count towards a break period but it stops you not getting paid if you aren’t technically working.

137

msmicksmith:
I use POA for two reasons.

Reason 2 - It extends the 6 hour break rule. If you start work at 6am, ordinarily you need to take a 30 minute break at 12pm.

This must surely be the most often mentioned topic on Trucknet_UK by now :laughing:

It’s 15 minutes not 30 :wink:

138

ROG:
Don’t need POA to extend the shift time - BREAK will do that just as well

What is needed is a maximum shift time and the appropriate wages to go with it

so then scenario time:
i pull up outside a car dealer who ive previously phoned to be told the guy who checks the cars in is out delivering a vehicle and wont be back for 1 hour.so i pull up and can quite rightly select poa,but dont and select break.i decide to go and oil my bollards and do some routine maintenance and along comes vosa.
“quick spot check driver,what time did you pull up and which mode are you on?”
“i pulled up half an hour ago and im on poa”
“it says here your on break and your working…”

im not as many in this post are doing condoning the rights and wrongs of the tools we have in front of us,and as it seems if your doing so, you get chastised for following the rules.
poa certainly has its benefits for some like me who are paid a basic and bonus wage system.i dont want to sit wasting what could essentially be a days pay(load) on other work burning off my hours.the rights and wrongs of working 70 hours but only booking legally 48 is another issue and probably a seperate thread,and not what this post was originally stating.

139

. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: Welcome msmicksmith :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: .

msmicksmith:
If you start work at 6am, ordinarily you need to take a 30 minute break at 12pm

RTD(WTD) BREAKS explained by a GURU … AND AGAIN HERE

Forum with some useful stuff and Forum for questions on drivers hours

140

ROG:
Don’t need POA to extend the shift time - BREAK will do that just as well

buck rogers:
so then scenario time:
i pull up outside a car dealer who ive previously phoned to be told the guy who checks the cars in is out delivering a vehicle and wont be back for 1 hour.so i pull up and can quite rightly select poa,but dont and select break.i decide to go and oil my bollards and do some routine maintenance and along comes vosa.

Then BOTH POA & BREAK are the wrong mode as that Is OTHER WORK