DIGI TACO'S

[robinhood_1984]

Lucy:
robinhood - What on earth would you have done back in the days of non-automatic tachos when you had to stretch your arm out and change mode EVERY time you did anything rather than just between o/w and rest? I’m sorry, but I fail to see how the need to push a button from time to time is such a big deal…

The way it’s coming across is this - You object to drivers who stay on rest all day because they can’t be bothered to change mode, yet you object to having to change mode to rest because you can’t be bothered.

I’m utterly lost and totally unable to see the infringement of “rights” going on here, so either you’ve been so indoctrinated by today’s “rights” culture (not your fault, you can’t help your age) or there’s something I’m missing…?

What the heck are you talking about? I have never said a driver should not leave his tacho on break all the time, I’m saying that a driver who does chose to do this is no better than a tacho that choses to automatically set the mode to cross hammers, the former is probably doing so for his own personal benefit, something I will never criticise and the later is doing so in my opinion to shaft him out of working time on the 17/26wk average and put him out of pocket. I see it as a problem because it takes the drivers choice away, if I park up, and after 21 minutes need to shunt forward and then forget to change the mode back, which I’m sure will happen to no end of people, no end of times, I think thats the problem, my exact circumstances have not changed, my current tacho would then revert back to the mode which I PUT IT ON, what my current tacho does not do is once I move, flick to cross hammers and stay there even though I am resuming my break. Just as we are not always on break, we are on the same token not always on other work either and the stupid machine should not suggest that we are, again, its no different, its infact a sheer reversal of leaving your tacho on constant rest.

All it will really result in is more needless hassle and will achive nothing, those who leave their tacho on rest now will just press rest every time they stop so theres no point in it, its just another hassle that is totally un-needed.

[robinhood_1984]

Coffeeholic:
I thought you would welcome the change that makes drivers use the mode switch?

You thought wrong then. It wasn’t long ago when it was you who was telling me that the cross hammers mode is “optional”, so why are you defending a machine that enforces its use?

[coffeeholic]

robinhood_1984:
I have never said a driver should not leave his tacho on break all the time, I’m saying that a driver who does chose to do this is no better than a tacho that choses to automatically set the mode to cross hammers,

So you are saying both are wrong and being critical of both

robinhood_1984:
the former is probably doing so for his own personal benefit,

Which is wrong.

robinhood_1984:
something I will never criticise

You just did up there 

robinhood_1984:
and the later is doing so in my opinion to shaft him out of working time on the 17/26wk average and put him out of pocket.

How, all you need to do is change the switch? No shafting taking place.

robinhood_1984:
I see it as a problem because it takes the drivers choice away,

What choice? There is no grey area and no choice available, you are either at rest/break, doing other work, or on POA. Each one is clearly defined so there is no choice to be taken away, you select the appropriate mode for what you are doing. Actually there is a choice, do it properly or not, and you seem to be saying the new tacho should make allowances for those who choose not to do it properly?

robinhood_1984:
if I park up, and after 21 minutes need to shunt forward and then forget to change the mode back, which I’m sure will happen to no end of people, no end of times, I think thats the problem, my exact circumstances have not changed, my current tacho would then revert back to the mode which I PUT IT ON, what my current tacho does not do is once I move, flick to cross hammers and stay there even though I am resuming my break.

So change it back to rest then. What is the big problem with pushing a button? I will never understand the drivers who make a big issue of this and seem to take a delight in not changing the mode switch. Like it or not, the tacho and the regulations are part of our job and in the same way we have to abide by the rules of the road when driving, or ensure our vehicles meet legal requirements etc, we have to comply with the tacho rules. If to do that properly means using very little effort to push a button now and again what is the issue?

robinhood_1984:
Just as we are not always on break, we are on the same token not always on other work either and the stupid machine should not suggest that we are, again, its no different, its infact a sheer reversal of leaving your tacho on constant rest.

So really it is no different then, you have to push one button anyway so does it really matter which one.

robinhood_1984:
All it will really result in is more needless hassle and will achive nothing,

How is it more hassle if you have to push a button anyway?

robinhood_1984:
those who leave their tacho on rest now will just press rest every time they stop so theres no point in it, its just another hassle that is totally un-needed.

That is very likely the whole point in it, they will continue to be wrong, if they are doing that while not at rest, but their excuse of forgetting to change mode will be out the window. I think it will mean more drivers will start to use the mode switch correctly and what is wrong with that?

[robinhood_1984]

Coffeeholic:
I think it will mean more drivers will start to use the mode switch correctly and what is wrong with that?

Yes, maybe for the first 17/26 weeks until they’re told that because they’ve done so, they have to take unpaid leave to account for exesive working time, I can imagine after such an event, there will be considerably less people doing “correct” mode switches. I’ve already seen it happen anyway, previous die-hard WTD wallahs now leaving their tacho on rest all the time because the wtd has turned round and bit them where it hurts.

[Lucy]

robinhood_1984:
What the heck are you talking about? I have never said a driver should not leave his tacho on break all the time,

Yes you have. Up there a bit.

I’m saying that a driver who does chose to do this is no better than a tacho that choses to automatically set the mode to cross hammers,

Eh? Now I’m really lost. Either both or bad or both aren’t, make your mind up! “No better” generally implies “not good” ie. “bad” which would be…wait for it…criticising!!

the former is probably doing so for his own personal benefit,

How could you possibly know enough about individual drivers to be able to say that?

something I will never criticise

You already have. Several times.

and the later is doing so in my opinion to shaft him out of working time on the 17/26wk average and put him out of pocket.

Eh? What the…? So it’s bad to leave a tacho on rest for your own reasons, and bad to press a button for your own reasons…? That is all we are talking about here, remember…being arsed to press a button.

I see it as a problem because it takes the drivers choice away,

No it doesn’t. The button is there and it is up to you to CHOOSE to press it. What is so bad about pressing a button?

if I park up, and after 21 minutes need to shunt forward and then forget to change the mode back, which I’m sure will happen to no end of people, no end of times, I think thats the problem, my exact circumstances have not changed, my current tacho would then revert back to the mode which I PUT IT ON, what my current tacho does not do is once I move, flick to cross hammers and stay there even though I am resuming my break. Just as we are not always on break, we are on the same token not always on other work either and the stupid machine should not suggest that we are, again, its no different, its infact a sheer reversal of leaving your tacho on constant rest.

So if the machine assumes you are on break, then it is stupid…and if it assumes you’re not it’s stupid. So what’s the difference? For god’s sake, just press the button.

As for the “forgetting” thing…what if you forget to set a timer going and go over hours…if you forget to indicate and cut someone up…if you forget to look and drive into someone…that’s ok is it? If you’re doing your job properly, you do your utmost not to forget. Simple. JUST PRESS THE WRETCHED BUTTON!!! If you find it that hard to remember how to do your job, put a post-it on the dash/kettle/wherever else you think it will job your memory. It’s not the machine’s fault…nor anyone’s responsibility other than your own.

All it will really result in is more needless hassle and will achive nothing, those who leave their tacho on rest now will just press rest every time they stop so theres no point in it, its just another hassle that is totally un-needed.

Good grief man, if you think remembering to press a button is “hassle” you must have led a truly charmed life!!!

The old-style non-auto tacho point which I made and which you found impossible to understand, btw, was a reference to a time when if you changed what you were doing you had to change it manually EVERY TIME! Not difficult in itself…and now you don’t even have to remember to do that! Drive records automatically, so you just have to occassionally press a button when you stop!
The “heck” that I was talking about being that if you can’t cope with this, you would have been up in arms and having a heart attack over that!!!

[Lucy]

robinhood_1984:

Coffeeholic:
I think it will mean more drivers will start to use the mode switch correctly and what is wrong with that?

Yes, maybe for the first 17/26 weeks until they’re told that because they’ve done so, they have to take unpaid leave to account for exesive working time, I can imagine after such an event, there will be considerably less people doing “correct” mode switches. I’ve already seen it happen anyway, previous die-hard WTD wallahs now leaving their tacho on rest all the time because the wtd has turned round and bit them where it hurts.

What on earth has any of that got to do with digital tachos automatically setting to other work, which is what you say you have a problem with…■■?

[muckles]

robinhood_1984:

Coffeeholic:
I think it will mean more drivers will start to use the mode switch correctly and what is wrong with that?

Yes, maybe for the first 17/26 weeks until they’re told that because they’ve done so, they have to take unpaid leave to account for exesive working time, I can imagine after such an event, there will be considerably less people doing “correct” mode switches. I’ve already seen it happen anyway, previous die-hard WTD wallahs now leaving their tacho on rest all the time because the wtd has turned round and bit them where it hurts.

So what you are saying is the new digital tacho will stop drivers fiddling the WTD?

[robinhood_1984]

muckles:

robinhood_1984:

Coffeeholic:
I think it will mean more drivers will start to use the mode switch correctly and what is wrong with that?

Yes, maybe for the first 17/26 weeks until they’re told that because they’ve done so, they have to take unpaid leave to account for exesive working time, I can imagine after such an event, there will be considerably less people doing “correct” mode switches. I’ve already seen it happen anyway, previous die-hard WTD wallahs now leaving their tacho on rest all the time because the wtd has turned round and bit them where it hurts.

So what you are saying is the new digital tacho will stop drivers fiddling the WTD?

Who? Me or coffeholic? I don’t know the ins and outs of the digital tacho but from what I gather so far, if you can just press rest or box mode then no it wont. I think the only thing it will actually achive is catching people out who make the innocent mistake of forgetting to change the mode from cross hammers and if they work for a wtd wallah company they’ll pay the price at the end of the reference period.

[robinhood_1984]

Lucy:

robinhood_1984:

Coffeeholic:
I think it will mean more drivers will start to use the mode switch correctly and what is wrong with that?

Yes, maybe for the first 17/26 weeks until they’re told that because they’ve done so, they have to take unpaid leave to account for exesive working time, I can imagine after such an event, there will be considerably less people doing “correct” mode switches. I’ve already seen it happen anyway, previous die-hard WTD wallahs now leaving their tacho on rest all the time because the wtd has turned round and bit them where it hurts.

What on earth has any of that got to do with digital tachos automatically setting to other work, which is what you say you have a problem with…■■?

I’d appreciate it if you could respond to me in a manner which doesn’t imply I’m stupid as in your previous post by highliting text several times giving the impression that I’m thick for not understanding and agreeing with you the first time . I have a right to an opinion and what I have said has been taken out of context. I think its fair to say that a large section of drivers in Britain leave their tacho on rest, I defend their right to do that even though they shouldn’t, I’m not saying that “no you can’t do that!” I’m saying that the laws says you can’t but if you chose to thats up to you and whilst it may be wrong, its no more wrong than having your tacho on cross hammers automatically. I think the current set up works just fine where WE decide what mode is on and it stays on that mode until we change it. Its not as if the haulage industry is crashing down around our feet because drivers want to leave their mode on rest, they’ve been doing it since day one and I hardly consider it a realistic problem.

Anyway, as you are a director of trucknet, I’m sure you have the power to remove my membership so please would you do so without delay. I will confirm this in any way you should want me to ie a pm or email. Thankyou.

[muckles]

robinhood_1984:

muckles:
So what you are saying is the new digital tacho will stop drivers fiddling the WTD?

Who? Me or coffeholic? I don’t know the ins and outs of the digital tacho but from what I gather so far, if you can just press rest or box mode then no it wont. I think the only thing it will actually achive is catching people out who make the innocent mistake of forgetting to change the mode from cross hammers and if they work for a wtd wallah company they’ll pay the price at the end of the reference period.

I use the mode switch on the present tachograph and started working an HGV driver in 1993, (not very long compared to some on here I know) and I think I’ve made the mistake of forgetting to change mode a few times, maybe 5 or 10. I’ve either accepted it and gone and had more break or written on the card and I’ve had no comeback from doing so.
And part of life is that if you make a mistake then you might suffer the consequences of that mistake.

[Lasurazes]

Lucy:

robinhood_1984:
What the heck are you talking about? I have never said a driver should not leave his tacho on break all the time,

Yes you have. Up there a bit.

I’m saying that a driver who does chose to do this is no better than a tacho that choses to automatically set the mode to cross hammers,

Eh? Now I’m really lost. Either both or bad or both aren’t, make your mind up! “No better” generally implies “not good” ie. “bad” which would be…wait for it…criticising!!

the former is probably doing so for his own personal benefit,

How could you possibly know enough about individual drivers to be able to say that?

something I will never criticise

You already have. Several times.

and the later is doing so in my opinion to shaft him out of working time on the 17/26wk average and put him out of pocket.

Eh? What the…? So it’s bad to leave a tacho on rest for your own reasons, and bad to press a button for your own reasons…? That is all we are talking about here, remember…being arsed to press a button.

I see it as a problem because it takes the drivers choice away,

No it doesn’t. The button is there and it is up to you to CHOOSE to press it. What is so bad about pressing a button?

if I park up, and after 21 minutes need to shunt forward and then forget to change the mode back, which I’m sure will happen to no end of people, no end of times, I think thats the problem, my exact circumstances have not changed, my current tacho would then revert back to the mode which I PUT IT ON, what my current tacho does not do is once I move, flick to cross hammers and stay there even though I am resuming my break. Just as we are not always on break, we are on the same token not always on other work either and the stupid machine should not suggest that we are, again, its no different, its infact a sheer reversal of leaving your tacho on constant rest.

So if the machine assumes you are on break, then it is stupid…and if it assumes you’re not it’s stupid. So what’s the difference? For god’s sake, just press the button.

As for the “forgetting” thing…what if you forget to set a timer going and go over hours…if you forget to indicate and cut someone up…if you forget to look and drive into someone…that’s ok is it? If you’re doing your job properly, you do your utmost not to forget. Simple. JUST PRESS THE WRETCHED BUTTON!!! If you find it that hard to remember how to do your job, put a post-it on the dash/kettle/wherever else you think it will job your memory. It’s not the machine’s fault…nor anyone’s responsibility other than your own.

All it will really result in is more needless hassle and will achive nothing, those who leave their tacho on rest now will just press rest every time they stop so theres no point in it, its just another hassle that is totally un-needed.

Good grief man, if you think remembering to press a button is “hassle” you must have led a truly charmed life!!!

The old-style non-auto tacho point which I made and which you found impossible to understand, btw, was a reference to a time when if you changed what you were doing you had to change it manually EVERY TIME! Not difficult in itself…and now you don’t even have to remember to do that! Drive records automatically, so you just have to occassionally press a button when you stop!
The “heck” that I was talking about being that if you can’t cope with this, you would have been up in arms and having a heart attack over that!!!

so what your saying is

press the [zb] button

[geebee45]

What an interesting series of posts to come back to after a week away For the record my thoughts are;

when the vehicle stops just push the button to select the mode that reflects what you are doing. If you stop driving and change the mode to rest (for example), so long as you changed the mode within two minutes of the vehicle becoming stationary, then all the time from stationary to mode selection will be counted as rest by the machine. There is no problem with not changing the mode switch, just don’t be surprised if VOSA and the Police start taking more interest in the offence.

Who pays for the card is open to negotiation between drivers and their employer. Many operators appear to be saying that they will pay for the first card. If you loose it then they expect you to pay for the replacement, seems fair to me. If the card stops working or you change address then DVLA will issue a free replacement. I cannot think of any industry where the Government has introduced legislation and then paid for the control mechanism, why should driving be any different?

When applying for a driver card you don’t need to have a photocard licence, but if you do it makes the application easier. In fact you don’t even need to have a vocational licence; digital driver cards will be issued to anybody with B+E entitlement upwards.

Operators are required to provide drivers with copies of digital data relating to the hours you worked. The other alternative is that you can always take a printout at the end of each working day and keep that for your own records. This avoids you having to get a programme capable of reading the digital data, currently they are costing some several hundreds of pounds. The paper must retain legible records for at least 12 months, but storing in constant sunlight is not recommended.

The vehicle unit will sound an alarm when you get to 4:15 hrs driving and then again at 4:30. However, there are no other alarms for driving time. Probably just as well as those regs we knew and loved; 3820/85 will be changing in 2007 (probably around May) and the units would then have to be reprogrammed with the new times etc.

[Lucy]

Shock, horror, stop press!!!

TRUCKNET DIRECTOR SPEAKS AS MEMBER AND DRIVER AND HAS OPINION!!!

I still don’t understnd what the problem is, robinhood…very few tachos stay on the mode you set them on now - they choose “rest” whether you select it or not.

If you wish to have your membership deleted, please e-mail me from the account listed in your profile and I will oblige.

In the meantime, I guess I’d better get back in my box.

[peirre]

LOST; 1 plot…reward offer for its safe return
if found can we return to the orignal point of this thread

[spacemonkeypg]

I agree…

If you guys are having a slanging match can you do it via pm’s

This is somewhat topical subject lol

[Lucy]

Ok, ok…

Am sending myself a Formal Warning.

[marcustandy]

How the 'eck did I miss this thread for so long■■?

FWIW, thanks for your post geebee45; obvious I know but I never even thought about B+E drivers, and the rest of your comments made (calming) sense.

As for pushing buttons, robinhood - don’t get yourself a Drivers Hour Guard - the required button pushing would drive you mad(der!!)

Just another thought for those who don’t think they should pay for the card; if you went for a job driving to Europe, who would you expect to pay for your passport??

I just see it as another ‘essential’ cost; not good, I know but essential all the same.

If there really are that many drivers who reckon they won’t pay for the card, then it might mean there are some of the better jobs up for grabs for those that will!! Anyone who’s not happy/underpaid etc, get your card quick, standby and prepare to pounce!!

[spardo]

Now I’ve got a question about these cards.
It seems they have to be issued in the country which issues the driving licence.
In my case France. Does that mean I can still drive British registered trucks?
Even if no-one knows the answer, someone may know if British holders can drive foreign registered trucks. Wheelnut perhaps?
Be daft if it wasn’t so, but I’d like to be sure before I shell out my euros.

Salut, David.

[scanny77]

it seems that my current company (exel) will be paying for their drivers’ cards. pity im leaving in 3 weeks

[mrflibble]

scanny77:

CM:
As Neil quite rightly said it states your Passport is acceptable but I do not recall it mentioning Birth Certificates. I suspect it may be because the Passport provided photographic verification of the pic they ask you send in with the application.

i just assumed a birth certificate would be accepted. it usually is by anyone who requires a formal id check. at the moment, i dont have anything with my picture on it. i dont even have a company id card yet

AIUI, you can use a birth certificate (at least to get a passport), but you then have to have your photos certified that the name on the certificate is the same person as in the photos. With an existing passport/photocard license that’s easy, but it doesn’t work with a birth certificate, since it doesn’t have a photo on it (and if it did, it’s unlikely to look like you anymore )

Spardo:
Now I’ve got a question about these cards.
It seems they have to be issued in the country which issues the driving licence.
In my case France. Does that mean I can still drive British registered trucks?
Even if no-one knows the answer, someone may know if British holders can drive foreign registered trucks. Wheelnut perhaps?

Sure, why not? The digital tacho cards are supposed to be compatible EU-wide. So a card issued in (for example) France should work in a truck registered in (for example) the UK. Of course, whether the French authorities have got their backsides into gear and started issuing the cards yet is another matter entirely.

As for paying for the cards, I personally don’t see what all the fuss is about for the vast majority of drivers. Most people will be working about 220 days per year (5 days/week, 40 days holiday (including bank holidays)), and will therefore use at least 1100 tacho charts over a 5 year period. The cheapest I’ve seen tacho charts is £3.80/box, if you buy 100 boxes (each containing 100 charts). Therefore, for the 5 years that your card is valid, you’d expect to go through at least £40 worth of paper charts. Whoever currently pays for your paper charts should be paying for the card, as it’s actually saving them money in the long term.