robinhood_1984:
I don’t see what right anyone has to dictate to me that the tacho of the vehicle I’M DRIVING has to be on a certain mode automatically.
Well the regulations already dictate which mode your switch should be on at any given time so the fact that the new machine will choose one automatically is irrelevant.
robinhood_1984:
This will cause endless problems when people are loading/unloading and they for example get asked to pull forward a few meters, jump into the cab and do so and then jump out again
Do that at the moment and the unit will automatically switch to drive mode then back to other work so I don’t see the problem at all.
robinhood_1984:
it will be ten times worse when this hideous piece of machenery creeps into our trucks and changes itself to cross hammers with so much as a short shunt forwards and backwards, that is downright unacceptable in my opinion.
Sorry, I just don’t see that. Why is the fact it switches back to the correct mode unacceptable?
How does a computer know what the correct mode is? Under no circumstances could it know. For example, I’m in a services and after 32 minutes for the sake of the argument I need to move a little bit so that the truck next to me can get out, I do this and without me wanting it to, the mode switches to cross hammers and stays there. Why should it do this? I’m still parked in the services and will be for atleast another 15 minutes if I’m having a 45. I am of the opinion that I as the driver should decide what mode should be used, not a computer that changes the mode when I so much as move in an inch and then decides foe me that it will remain on that mode. A computer thats designed to automatically go onto cross hammers is no better than a driver who always leaves it on rest, both are misleading and not true reflections of the reality of the situation.
robinhood_1984:
This will cause endless problems when people are loading/unloading and they for example get asked to pull forward a few meters, jump into the cab and do so and then jump out again and hey, what do you know, your magnificent new tacho without your authorisation has decided for itself to change from the mode you as a human being previously set it to to suit your own purpose.
robinhood_1984:
it will be ten times worse when this hideous piece of machenery creeps into our trucks and changes itself to cross hammers with so much as a short shunt forwards and backwards, that is downright unacceptable in my opinion.
By suit your own purpose, Do you mean having it on rest whilst Loading or Unloading?
If so yes it will cause you problems, but if you are involved with Loading and Unloading the truck is other work.
Or do you mean sitting in the cab and having to come off break and move the truck, still not rest,
even with the old tacho left on rest, it will still show that you’ve moved the truck and although it might not seem much tacho analysis will still pick it up.
.
I mean that in any situation where your truck is on rest or box you so much as shunt forwards and then stop and carrying on with what you were previously doing. Why should the tacho then set itself onto cross hammers, this is no more honest than having it on bed whilst handballing in the back, it just suits the [zb] who want to keep drivers out of trucks due to acumilated hours. At the end of the day, if i’m loading or tipping, with or without a digi tacho, I’ll still put it onto rest if I want to, no one will ever stop me, thats not my problem, the problem is that an electronic machine is taking away the drivers choice by automatically selecting cross hammers at the first movement of the wheel, something a normal tacho does not do and then we’re punished for being humans and not robots if we should forget to then put the mode back onto what we already set it to previously, it will happen and I know people already who’ve been penalised under the wtd because they’ve accidentally left cross hammers on whilst being tipped for four of five hours and have been forced to take time off work. What a ridiculous state of affairs!
robinhood_1984:
How does a computer know what the correct mode is.
Under no circumstances could it know. For example, I’m in a services and after 32 minutes for the sake of the argument I need to move a little bit so that the truck next to me can get out, I do this and without me wanting it to, the mode switches to cross hammers and stays there. Why should it do this?
If you move the truck then you are not at rest as defined by the regulations, therefore the computer is right by defaulting to otherwork. Inconvienient in the senario you mention, but so is running out of time less than an hour away from home, but it’s the regs we work by. Also in the senario you mention you paper tacho would also record movement, so you could still be picked up on it.
robinhood_1984:
I am of the opinion that I as the driver should decide what mode should be used
The problem is many driver elect to leave it on break.
The tachograph is there to monitor what the driver is doing, because drivers leave it on rest it it doesn’t correctly monitor driver activity, defaulting to otherwork forces drivers to put it onto rest at rest periods at the correct times or they don’t get a rest period recorded.
As the authorities are mostly interest in the hours you drive, (sorted by auto drive) and when and how much break you have, making you switch mode from other work to break get a more accurate recording. Not perfect, you can still tip on break, but better for them.
But be careful tipping on break or at least off card, just reading where a driver has been done by VOSA for tipping off card. Aswell as tacho evidence, (distance traces not adding up) they used gatehouse records to prove what he was doing.
robinhood_1984:
How does a computer know what the correct mode is? Under no circumstances could it know.
Very true, just as the current units don’t know and it is down to the driver to ensure the correct mode is selected, no difference between the current units and the digi ones.
robinhood_1984:
For example, I’m in a services and after 32 minutes for the sake of the argument I need to move a little bit so that the truck next to me can get out, I do this and without me wanting it to, the mode switches to cross hammers and stays there. Why should it do this? I’m still parked in the services and will be for atleast another 15 minutes if I’m having a 45.
So you switch it back to rest, if you are going to take the rest of your break, just as you would when you begin any break.
robinhood_1984:
I am of the opinion that I as the driver should decide what mode should be used,
Exactly, and if you decide to continue your break you switch the mode switch. The decision is still all yours.
robinhood_1984:
not a computer that changes the mode when I so much as move in an inch
Which is exactly what the current units do, so again no difference.
robinhood_1984:
and then decides foe me that it will remain on that mode. A computer thats designed to automatically go onto cross hammers is no better than a driver who always leaves it on rest, both are misleading and not true reflections of the reality of the situation.
And there I think you have the reason for the unit defaulting to other work. The many drivers who for one reason or another don’t bother with the mode switch will now have to do so. It makes sense to me, most of the average day is spent on driving or other work so it makes sense to default to other work and switch to driving automatically. Also when you stop driving you don’t really go onto instant rest, a little bit of other work before switching to rest just seems the sensible way to do it in my opinion. They haven’t been able to get all drivers to use the mode switch by education so now they are using technology instead. As you said above
no better than a driver who always leaves it on rest, both are misleading and not true reflections of the reality of the situation.
I thought you would welcome the change that makes drivers use the mode switch?
I have one question,How do we record any instances where we have had ti either go over the driveing/working time due to no parking being available
also how do we compinsate for the time spent either at roadside traffic -jam where at present wecan after a set defined time limit add this time to the
working time when it is recorded on the back of the tachograph,the only would be to write on a print out from the computor tacho, unfortunatly i have at present not seen any information which explains what we as drivers can/are allowed to do in theabove mentioned instances,
brit pete:
I have one question,How do we record any instances where we have had ti either go over the driveing/working time due to no parking being available
also how do we compinsate for the time spent either at roadside traffic -jam where at present wecan after a set defined time limit add this time to the
working time when it is recorded on the back of the tachograph,the only would be to write on a print out from the computor tacho, unfortunatly i have at present not seen any information which explains what we as drivers can/are allowed to do in theabove mentioned instances,
i think i read somewhere that drivers should make a printout from the machine and write on the paper the reason for the infringement and then keep the printout or hand it to the employer but it also advises that unless cared for properly the print out will fade away and if left in sunlight will fade within days/weeks.
i think they will fade anyway no matter how well they are cared for, some till receipts do it now.
i also think a lot of employers will pay for the cards otherwise they will be faced with trucks standing in the yard because nobody has the smart card to drive it, we can be very stubborn when we want to be although there will be the odd looney that will want a new truck and will already have the application going through dvla.
just remember that you cannot drive a digital tacho equipped truck until you have been issued with the smart card, if the smart card fails or you lose it then you can drive for a short period of time without the card but you must have previously been issued with a smart card to be able to do this.
what do we then do if we need a copy of the driven hours where and how can we get a copy that will capable of remaining readable after 6 months
can we get this information transferred to a disk for the PC and will all bosses wish or allow us to have a copy, ““Yes”” I know it is the law that we must be given a copy but due to my own experiences not every employer is
Honest and acts to the letter of the law,Can we use a cardreader to down load such information,another point with the written tachograph and the start and end points being recorded this was useful if some one falsely tried to make a claim aginst you ,as you could prove that you wher not in the area concerned with this written record, JUST A THOUGHT;
The paying of yet another fee really ■■■■■■ me off…and i will refuse to pay £40 for the privelage of driving what im already licenced to do. The idea of a tacho is to record the amount of driving and rest a driver gets, so this new piece of equipment is yet another infringement of a spy in the cab. When my boss decides to buy new vehicles..he wil have to ask whether the drivers have the necessary digi card with which to operate it..to which the reply will be NO..so before he puts the vehicle on the road..he will have to make sure the drivers have this smart card..so i along with many others will ask for the money to pay for it.. I read previously that drivers are having to wait for their night out money for a month...the general rule was that if a driver is going to have a night out, he would receive the expenses before leaving the yard, same as parking fees etc..why should a driver have to pay up front for expenses to control a vehicle that doesnt belong to him..i always ask for the money up front..if your going into wales for example..its £15..and if your doing that journey 2-3 times a week..that means using your hard earned cash..i would never do that ..except in an emergency and for my benefit....if im on the road and the company want me to go to wales for example…i will go the long way round rather than spend my own money…as far as i`m concerned …its bad planning…
With regard to the tacho once again…most vehicles have an automatic tacho…so why are drivers being prosecuted for not changing their mode switch, it does it for you anyway…and it still shows a break…a driving period etc…just a case of the big brother using their bully boy tactics…and we allow them to do it…transport…who needs it
robinhood - What on earth would you have done back in the days of non-automatic tachos when you had to stretch your arm out and change mode EVERY time you did anything rather than just between o/w and rest? I’m sorry, but I fail to see how the need to push a button from time to time is such a big deal…
The way it’s coming across is this - You object to drivers who stay on rest all day because they can’t be bothered to change mode, yet you object to having to change mode to rest because you can’t be bothered.
I’m utterly lost and totally unable to see the infringement of “rights” going on here, so either you’ve been so indoctrinated by today’s “rights” culture (not your fault, you can’t help your age) or there’s something I’m missing…?
I’ve got a few points to make about these digi tachos.
As I was one of the few drivers to welcome the change from paper to tacho in the first place because I saw them as a way to protect us from ‘over-enthusiastic’ employers, I could hardly object to a more efficient way of doing this.
Having said that, it appears to me that the new cards are nothing more than a replacement for a tacho disc, and whoever expected drivers to pay for those? They should be paid for by employers. If you leave within a specified time and have to repay, you should be able to then recoup from the new employer. Obviously this will only work seamlessly once almost all vehicles are so equipped.
How can you object to automatic change of mode? As a very forgetful driver, I have been crying out for this for years . If you have been in the habit of working when on break, you have already been taking a risk - what’s changed?
If someone else needs to move your wagon while you are away, you write the story, whether on the back of a disc or a printout.
firstly if we want a copy of our tacho we go to a photocopier and print one - not possible with the digitach.
if we are caught on camera speeding and know that we were not then we get a copy of our tacho as proof and take 'em on - not possible with digitach.
if we need to prove that we were not somewhere inparticular we can photocopy our tacho with the start and finish place on it - not possible with a digitach as the start and finish place is the country you are in and not the town or city.
at present if we forget to alter the mode switch then we can write on the reverse of the days card - not possible with digitach - we have to write on a piece of paper that will fade with time and could relate to anything.
and then of course it is the cost of the things - £38 to make sure that every citizen that wants corn flakes for breakfast can pick up a packet at the local supermarket or that the brand new car they are buying has almost zero miles on the clock when they pick it up.
the general motoring public should pay for them and they should be informed they are paying for them too, gordon should find a way to include it in a tax that people pay - perhaps not everyone but just the car owners and drivers, perhaps a registration fee for change of vehicle, the dvla will charge £2 for every new ownership document issued and that money should be put into a fund for hgv and pcv drivers digital smart card production.
the sad thing is that during the consultation process very few people bothered to make their feelings known about the fees,
438 consultation documents were issued.
32 responses were received
9 did not wish to comment.
2 were happy with either option
3 chose option 1 which was some subsidy by companies
4 chose option 2 which provided greater subsidy by the driver.
but luckily thanks to the likes of rikki, myself and some others from this site and other trucking web sites 14 people said they were unhappy with either proposal and so option 1 was chosen which means that employers will somehow subsidise the drivers cards.
perhpaps now is a good time to reflect upon the actions you took to help secure the outcome that you favoured, if you didn’t take any action then stop ■■■■■■■■ about something you didn’t care about this time last year.
brit pete:
what do we then do if we need a copy of the driven hours where and how can we get a copy that will capable of remaining readable after 6 months
can we get this information transferred to a disk for the PC and will all bosses wish or allow us to have a copy, ““Yes”” I know it is the law that we must be given a copy but due to my own experiences not every employer is
Honest and acts to the letter of the law,Can we use a cardreader to down load such information,another point with the written tachograph and the start and end points being recorded this was useful if some one falsely tried to make a claim aginst you ,as you could prove that you wher not in the area concerned with this written record, JUST A THOUGHT;
I don’t think your bosses will not have a choice about allowing you to at least see the data. From what I remember of the Data Protection Act, you are allowed to see data held on you, so you can check it’s accuacy. Agreed not every employer abides by the law, but like similar situations, you can tell him to stuff it or decide to stay. If you have the card and have the technology at home what is to stop you downloading the info, provided it doesn’t wipe the card.
From what I’ve read there seems to be some sort of location code, which is entered at the start and finish of the shift. I don’t know exactly how it works though.
Personally like Spardo I can’t see it being a great deal different from using the present system. In fact in some ways it might be better if the paper read out provides all the hours info, it will save me looking at my card to add up driving hours and breaks etc. Also the tachograph will sound an alarm 15 minutes before your 4.5 hours driving is up. Not sure if it does the same for other things like end of shift, 9 or 10 hours daily driving etc.
Forgot to say. No problem with accepting new technology, if you infringe any regs write on the paper, get it photocopied, let you boss keep a copy on file and you keep a copy. Problem of info fading sorted.
However I’m not happy with having to pay for it, but this is one case where the unions are fighting our case, at least URTU, although I doubt they’ll be succesful. this government hardy known for it’s understanding of the haulage industry.
it isnt merely a cost, its a totally pointless and unjust cost. do you pay for your paper tachos (employed drivers)? most will say no so why should we pay for these cards then?
where do we stand legally on this issue? several people have refused to pay for them out of their own pocket and i will add my name to the list however, i am concerned with the prospect of an employer telling me to get one or find another job. you know some will throw this threat at you so where are we from a legal point of view? would it be classed as we are unable to perform our duties or would this be construed as constructive dismissal?
scanny77:
it isnt merely a cost, its a totally pointless and unjust cost. do you pay for your paper tachos (employed drivers)? most will say no so why should we pay for these cards then?
where do we stand legally on this issue? several people have refused to pay for them out of their own pocket and i will add my name to the list however, i am concerned with the prospect of an employer telling me to get one or find another job. you know some will throw this threat at you so where are we from a legal point of view? would it be classed as we are unable to perform our duties or would this be construed as constructive dismissal?
Strangely enough I had a converstion with someone today about the same thing. Didn’t come to a definitive answer though.
Any employer with half a brain should be able to see that paying for the card will actually be cheaper than constantly paying for disc’s. Seems like a no brainer to me and it is very easy to insist that if the driver leaves within a short period than they repay the cost, much the way companies do, or used to, when they paid for a driver to take their Class 1. I don’t see a problem with that scenario from either side.
The fading of the paper roll isn’t an issue as you just need to photocopy it and keep that instead. The operator still needs to keep records for a year so if you require a copy from a certain period they can, and must supply one.
If the company have a policy of not paying for the card and you refuse I guess they can get rid of you as you do not have an essential piece of equipment required to perform your job, much the same way as if you lost your licence. Mind you, you have to ask if a company isn’t willing to pay for the card are they worth working for?
Coffeeholic:
If the company have a policy of not paying for the card and you refuse I guess they can get rid of you as you do not have an essential piece of equipment required to perform your job, much the same way as if you lost your licence. Mind you, you have to ask if a company isn’t willing to pay for the card are they worth working for?
essential■■? i have been driving an artic for over 6 months without one so i dont see it as being essential since i am currently able to drive it. ok, i do need tachos to drive legally but they are supplied by the company and isnt the digital tacho merely a replacement for what it is in use now?
i apologise if this seems picky but in my eyes, there is a huge difference between essential and legally required
the current tachograph is partly for the employer to show proof of mileage among other things so surely the digital tacho as a direct replacement is designed towards the same ideas therefore it is for the employers benefit, not the drivers so why should we pay for it? i know my current employer has plans to retrofit the things to the entire fleet but the reason for this escapes me completely. why go to the hassle of fitting them when the majority of the fleet is only 3 years old? doesnt make sense to me
scanny77:
essential■■? i have been driving an artic for over 6 months without one so i dont see it as being essential since i am currently able to drive it. ok,
Yes, of course you can now but if the whole fleet was fitted with digi tachos, or even just one vehicle your boss required you to drive then it will obviously be essential, as essential as a C or C+E licence.
scanny77:
i do need tachos to drive legally but they are supplied by the company and isnt the digital tacho merely a replacement for what it is in use now?
i apologise if this seems picky but in my eyes, there is a huge difference between essential and legally required
Well if you are required by the company to drive a vehicle equipped with a digital tacho then the card is both essential and a legal requirement.
scanny77:
surely the digital tacho as a direct replacement is designed towards the same ideas therefore it is for the employers benefit, not the drivers so why should we pay for it?
If you read my post I said the company should be paying for it, cheaper in the long run for them than constantly supplying disc’s anyway.
scanny77:
i know my current employer has plans to retrofit the things to the entire fleet but the reason for this escapes me completely. why go to the hassle of fitting them when the majority of the fleet is only 3 years old? doesnt make sense to me
If the majority of the fleet are less than three years old it seems they renew their vehicles on a regular basis so it makes complete sense to me that they should decide to retro fit them. Makes it easier to manage if there is just one format across the fleet for record keeping, checking for infringements etc. It seems it will be much harder for a driver to fiddle the digital tachos which is another benefit for the company, less chance of their O Licence being put at risk. Also the requirement to keep paper disc’s for a year means problems with storage, the disc’s are easily damaged. Whereas the data downloaded from the digital tachos is easily stored on a PC, with back up copies on a couple of DVD disc’s. Another possible benefit could be with software becoming available to check the downloaded data there would be less need for an outside agency to perform the checks, another potential cost saving to the company. With all those benefits to the company then they should stick their hands in their pockets and cough up, the cost is completely tax deductible for them anyway.
Coffeeholic:
If the majority of the fleet are less than three years old it seems they renew their vehicles on a regular basis
your guess is as good as mine is here mate. 3 years ago the trucks were run by wincanton. exel took over 2 years ago so i dont even know who the trucks belong to whether its ranks or exel. they may even be on contract lease or something. then again, would they be retrofitting in a vehicle that doesnt belong to them■■?
with any luck, i will be long gone by the time they get round to it anyway. i certainly hope so since i dont qualify for a card at the moment anyway and i wont be til i am settled in Scotland
scanny77:
i certainly hope so since i dont qualify for a card at the moment anyway and i wont be til i am settled in Scotland
How do you mean you don’t qualify for a card? Is that a company thing because all you need to apply for a drivers card is valid drivers licence with the correct entitlement. Company cards can be issued to anyone in the company, they don’t even have to hold a driving licence of any sort.
Hopefully whoever you work for in Scotland will see the light and pay for your card.
. If you have been in the habit of working when on break, you have already been taking a risk - what’s changed?
No problem with accepting new technology, if you infringe any regs write on the paper, get it photocopied, let you boss keep a copy on file and you keep a copy. Problem of info fading sorted.