Digi tacho's - discussion?

[darkseeker]

This one’s gonna get complicated

Here we go, I’ve had my card for nearly a year now but only needed it maybe 4 times - so it’s been more or less a case of sticking it in, doing the job, get a printout and job’s a good un

This is where it gets complicated, I’ve just been skipping past everything (near enough) so I downloaded the simulator that someone posted on here so I could “play” and try to get to grips with it. Frankly, I’m not doing great so I thought I’d get a discussion going to help me and others work the things better. The thought being other’s may want to ask questions here too?

I know someone took the time to type a rough guide up on here somewhere which was good but I can’t find it now and remember being a bit baffled by some of it (good on em though and no offence intended). Please try to keep things as simple as possible, I’m sure I’m not alone in getting lost with this sort of thing easily.

First up, you turn the thing on, insert your card and nearly immediatly it asks; “manual entry?” Which normaly I’d say no to. But lets say I did a few days work last week that weren’t driving. I can see how to enter the start and end of the previous day, what about the other days though?

As an agency driver, I keep a record of all my hours anyway - would that mean I can get away with “skipping” that question - as I’ve already got a record of those other days? (for those in the know, would a “diary” suffice - providing it had the relevent info and tacho’s for driving days?)

[santa]

darkseeker:
First up, you turn the thing on, insert your card and nearly immediatly it asks; “manual entry?” Which normaly I’d say no to. But lets say I did a few days work last week that weren’t driving. I can see how to enter the start and end of the previous day, what about the other days though?

As an agency driver, I keep a record of all my hours anyway - would that mean I can get away with “skipping” that question - as I’ve already got a record of those other days? (for those in the know, would a “diary” suffice - providing it had the relevent info and tacho’s for driving days?)

If you have a tacho disc for the days you worked you dont make a manual entry.

[delboytwo]

First up, you turn the thing on, insert your card and nearly immediatly it asks; “manual entry?” Which normaly I’d say no to. But lets say I did a few days work last week that weren’t driving. I can see how to enter the start and end of the previous day, what about the other days though?

if you drive under EU regs and have used a tacho (paper type) for that day then there is no reason to do a manual entry on the digi card as you have proof of what you did.

if you work for a firm for a few days and you are not driving under EU/GB hours then you don’t need to recored it on the tacho as its not driving you may have to recored the work for WTD but that’s all.

Mixed records — analogue and digital equipment
It is possible that a driver may during the course of a day drive two or more vehicles where both types
of recording equipment are used. Drivers in such a situation must use a driver card to record while
driving a vehicle with a digital tachograph and tachograph charts when driving a vehicle equipped
with an analogue device

[mike-c]

darkseeker:
This one’s gonna get complicated

Here we go, I’ve had my card for nearly a year now but only needed it maybe 4 times - so it’s been more or less a case of sticking it in, doing the job, get a printout and job’s a good un

This is where it gets complicated, I’ve just been skipping past everything (near enough) so I downloaded the simulator that someone posted on here so I could “play” and try to get to grips with it. Frankly, I’m not doing great so I thought I’d get a discussion going to help me and others work the things better. The thought being other’s may want to ask questions here too?

I know someone took the time to type a rough guide up on here somewhere which was good but I can’t find it now and remember being a bit baffled by some of it (good on em though and no offence intended). Please try to keep things as simple as possible, I’m sure I’m not alone in getting lost with this sort of thing easily.

First up, you turn the thing on, insert your card and nearly immediatly it asks; “manual entry?” Which normaly I’d say no to. But lets say I did a few days work last week that weren’t driving. I can see how to enter the start and end of the previous day, what about the other days though?

As an agency driver, I keep a record of all my hours anyway - would that mean I can get away with “skipping” that question - as I’ve already got a record of those other days? (for those in the know, would a “diary” suffice - providing it had the relevent info and tacho’s for driving days?)

Its not too complicated . On the days you where not driving you can fill out a manual record on either a tachograph chart or a digital roll slip ,it has all the spaces to fill out the relevant info on the back of the slip similar to a tachograph chart. You only need keep these for 28 days then they need to be returned to your employer.
Manual entrys on the card? I can think of two scenarios. First one it will ask you if you if your last recorded finish time,date etc is correct if they are it is a simple case of pressing ‘ok’ to confirm your finish time/date. If it not correct then you need to adjust the finish time and enter in the correct modes. If the last date and time on the card is the correct time and date that you last used it and you have made manual records or analouge records since its last use then you could disregard making any further entries for your last work done as you would already have recorded them.In your case if you are agency and you are going to be working the same day after removal of a card then you would be as well to produce a printout and enter manual details on reverse of a slip. Next it will ask you if the current time [of insertion] is your start work time, i generally backtrack mine to five minutes previous as i will have been getting my notes and keys from the office. If i’ve took someone to collect a vehicle from service and drove the service van then i will backtrack it to when i started work.

[darkseeker]

Fair enough, so - what I was thinking of diary for “other work” and tacho’s for everything else is no good?

Generally speaking, I don’t get days where I drive for x hours and do something else when I get back - I turn up, do the job and go home so the only other work is generally full days. BUT, when I’m only doing a day or two driving per month and a few days of other work it seems a bit of an embuggerance having to get hold of and fill in tacho’s or paper for the other days - Especially as it’s already scribbled in the diary!

Anyway, I know the original question wasn’t all that complicated but I bet there’s plenty more where it came from

[mike-c]

I’m pretty certain that for any weeks that you actually do drive in then you need to keep a manual record of other work in that week. If there are weeks where there is no driving then yes a diary record will suffice for that week. Someone will correct me if i’m wrong .

[coffeeholic]

Mike-C:
I’m pretty certain that for any weeks that you actually do drive in then you need to keep a manual record of other work in that week. If there are weeks where there is no driving then yes a diary record will suffice for that week. Someone will correct me if i’m wrong .

You’re not wrong, could you show ROG how that’s done regarding tacho questions?

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
if you work for a firm for a few days and you are not driving under EU/GB hours then you don’t need to recored it on the tacho as its not driving you may have to recored the work for WTD but that’s all.

You’ve got that arse about face. If he does non driving work in a week were he also drives under EU rules then he will need a record for each of those non driving days. The record needs be no more than a disc with his name, the date, start and finish times on it, it doesn’t need to be a detailed account. Other non transport work has no bearing on the WTD for mobile workers so no record required for that.

[rog]

Coffeeholic:
You’re not wrong, could you show ROG how that’s done regarding tacho questions?

I saw that

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
if you work for a firm for a few days and you are not driving under EU/GB hours then you don’t need to recored it on the tacho as its not driving you may have to recored the work for WTD but that’s all.

You’ve got that arse about face. If he does non driving work in a week were he also drives under EU rules then he will need a record for each of those non driving days. The record needs be no more than a disc with his name, the date, start and finish times on it, it doesn’t need to be a detailed account. Other non transport work has no bearing on the WTD for mobile workers so no record required for that.

stand corrected

Recording other work
Drivers must record all other work and periods of availability — including work for other employers —
on all driving and non-driving days within a week where they have undertaken driving that comes
within the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours.
For example, a driver who works in a warehouse on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and wishes
to drive a vehicle within the scope of the EU rules on Thursday of the same week must complete
records for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
The record must be either:

• written manually on a chart;
• written manually on a printout from a digital tachograph;
• made by using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph; or
• for days where a driver has been subject to the domestic drivers’ hours rules and a record
  is legally required (see page 25), recorded in a domestic log book.
  For the non-driving days, the record may simply show the driver’s name, the date, and the start
  and finish of the shift. These records must be carried on the vehicle by the driver to be produced to
  enforcement officers for the relevant period (see individual sections on how to make manual entries).

with regard the wtd he will have to recored it

If you are driving under the GB domestic drivers’ hours rules
(or are an occasional mobile worker)
If you drive a vehicle subject to the GB domestic drivers’ hours rules or are an occasional mobile worker
(see text box opposite), you are affected by four provisions under the 1998 Regulations. These are:

• weekly working time, which must not exceed an average of 48 hours per week over the reference
  period (although individuals can ‘opt out’ of this requirement if they want to);
• an entitlement to 4.8 weeks’ paid annual leave (increased to 5.6 weeks from 1 April 2009);
• health checks for night workers; and
• an entitlement to adequate rest.

Definition of an occasional mobile worker under the 2005 Regulations
A mobile worker would be exempt from the 2005 Regulations if:

• he works 10 days or less within scope of the European drivers’ hours rules in a reference period
  that is shorter than 26 weeks; or
• he works 15 days or less within scope of the European drivers’ hours rules in a reference period
  that is 26 weeks or longer.

so if he work less then 10 days as a driver he would not have to recored WTD but if more he would

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
with regard the wtd he will have to recored it

If the other work is non transport related he won’t, which is what I said.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
with regard the wtd he will have to recored it

If the other work is non transport related he won’t, which is what I said.

OK then your telling me that’s is OK for me to drive 5 days a week which i work under the EU reg and RTD and then i can go and do 2 days flipping burgers and the hours i work at the burger bar does not count for wtd

but you have said that you need to show what you did on other days not driving

in a week were he also drives under EU rules then he will need a record for each of those non driving days. The record needs be no more than a disc with his name, the date, start and finish times on it, it doesn’t need to be a detailed account.

and there for if you did wouldn’t you have shown that you had no rest under EU regs if stopped by vosa

What if a worker agrees to work longer hours?

An individual worker may agree to work more than 48 hours a week. If so, he or she should sign an opt-out agreement, which they can cancel at any time. The employer and worker can agree how much notice is needed to cancel the agreement, which can be up to three months. In the absence of an agreed notice period, the worker needs to give a minimum of seven days’ notice of cancellation.

Employers cannot force a worker to sign an opt-out. Any opt-out must be agreed to. Workers cannot be fairly dismissed or subjected to detriment for refusing to sign an opt-out.

Employers must keep a record of who has agreed to work longer hours.

we as drivers can not opt out of the WTD cos we work under the RTD

please all so not that i am on about the WTD and not the RTD in which we as drivers work. every worker is under the WTD but there can opt out if there want to.

What should an employer do about a worker with a second job?

If a worker is known to have a second job, an employer should ask the worker to consider signing an opt-out agreement if the total time worked is in excess of 48 hours a week. If a worker does not wish to sign an opt-out in this situation, the worker should consider reducing their hours to comply with the 48-hour limit.

More generally, employers may wish to make an enquiry of their workforce about any additional employment. However, if a worker does not tell an employer about other employment and the employer has no reason to suspect that the worker has another job, it is extremely unlikely that the employer would be found not to have complied

we can not opt out cos we are mobile works

so can i ask you this as a driver we are subject to the RTD and as we can not opt out of it, and this is my main job any other work would come under the WTD which we are still required to follow, unless you have opted out in the second job

[mike-c]

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
with regard the wtd he will have to recored it

If the other work is non transport related he won’t, which is what I said.

OK then your telling me that’s is OK for me to drive 5 days a week which i work under the EU reg and RTD and then i can go and do 2 days flipping burgers and the hours i work at the burger bar does not count for wtd

No Del, if you work for two days flipping burgers you will not have satisfied the EU driving requirements for weekly rest.

delboytwo:
but you have said that you need to show what you did on other days not driving

in a week were he also drives under EU rules then he will need a record for each of those non driving days. The record needs be no more than a disc with his name, the date, start and finish times on it, it doesn’t need to be a detailed account.

and there for if you did wouldn’t you have shown that you had no rest under EU regs if stopped by vosa

Other work that does not come under the EU driving regs, whilst it does need to be recorded as other work does not have the same requirements of showing actual activities (or ‘modes’). Most (although not all )of the break requirements are specifically geared for driving.

delboytwo:

What if a worker agrees to work longer hours?

An individual worker may agree to work more than 48 hours a week. If so, he or she should sign an opt-out agreement, which they can cancel at any time. The employer and worker can agree how much notice is needed to cancel the agreement, which can be up to three months. In the absence of an agreed notice period, the worker needs to give a minimum of seven days’ notice of cancellation.

Employers cannot force a worker to sign an opt-out. Any opt-out must be agreed to. Workers cannot be fairly dismissed or subjected to detriment for refusing to sign an opt-out.

Employers must keep a record of who has agreed to work longer hours.

we as drivers can not opt out of the WTD cos we work under the RTD

The RTD is in itself an ‘opt out’ for mobile workers of the constraints of the WTD under which just about everyone else operates.

delboytwo:
please all so not that i am on about the WTD and not the RTD in which we as drivers work. every worker is under the WTD but there can opt out if there want to.

What should an employer do about a worker with a second job?

If a worker is known to have a second job, an employer should ask the worker to consider signing an opt-out agreement if the total time worked is in excess of 48 hours a week. If a worker does not wish to sign an opt-out in this situation, the worker should consider reducing their hours to comply with the 48-hour limit.

More generally, employers may wish to make an enquiry of their workforce about any additional employment. However, if a worker does not tell an employer about other employment and the employer has no reason to suspect that the worker has another job, it is extremely unlikely that the employer would be found not to have complied

we can not opt out cos we are mobile works

Again, by working under the constraints of the RTD you have effectiveley 'opted out ’ of the WTD itself.

delboytwo:
so can i ask you this as a driver we are subject to the RTD and as we can not opt out of it, and this is my main job any other work would come under the WTD which we are still required to follow, unless you have opted out in the second job

Yes.

[delboytwo]

right i have a look at the RTD in full and i found this bit in it

dft.gov.uk/162259/165226/roa … meguid3241

2.5 Working for two or more employers or another organisation
For the purposes of the Regulations, working time is restricted to work for employers for
whom a mobile worker carries out any in-scope road transport activities (i.e. work covered by
the European drivers’ hours rules). It includes both road transport activities and any other
work for such employers (for instance when a driver also works in an employer’s warehouse).

It does not include work performed for employers who are not involved in road transport
activities (for instance bar work). However, such work would count as part of the “daily
working period” for the purposes of determining compliance with the separate European
drivers’ hours rules (i.e. bar work will impact on when you can work and how much work you
can do).

If an employee works for two or more employers, then the weekly working time is the
combined total of the hours worked (excluding breaks, rest and periods of availability) for all
the employers. The mobile worker must tell their employer(s) in writing, of any time worked
for another employer.

OK then your telling me that’s is OK for me to drive 5 days a week which i work under the EU reg and RTD and then i can go and do 2 days flipping burgers and the hours i work at the burger bar does not count for wtd

mike-c

No Del, if you work for two days flipping burgers you will not have satisfied the EU driving requirements for weekly rest.

so what do the bit in red mean IMO if i do burger flipping on the two day there would impact the regs

[mike-c]

I’m not sure if we are both understanding each other here. I’m saying if you drive for five days in a week, you will not be able to flip burgers for another two days. By driving that week you will come under the EU drivers hours regs which dictates that you will need a measured amount of weekly rest.

[delboytwo]

Mike-C:
I’m not sure if we are both understanding each other here. I’m saying if you drive for five days in a week, you will not be able to flip burgers for another two days. By driving that week you will come under the EU drivers hours regs which dictates that you will need a measured amount of weekly rest.

Hi mike

in my post

delboytwo wrote:
Coffeeholic wrote:
delboytwo wrote:
with regard the wtd he will have to recored it
If the other work is non transport related he won’t, which is what I said.

OK then your telling me that’s is OK for me to drive 5 days a week which i work under the EU reg and RTD and then i can go and do 2 days flipping burgers and the hours i work at the burger bar does not count for wtd

No Del, if you work for two days flipping burgers you will not have satisfied the EU driving requirements for weekly rest.

what i am trying to get at is can i work for 5 days as a driver then do 2 days other work in the same week and the 2 days work will not affect my EU regs and WTD

as we are drivers and we work under the EU reg and the RTD

if i worked for two days in a other job that is not driving would those days work be counted as WTD ( lets say there is no opt out agreement in the burger job) as its only part time and in theory no call for it

lets say i worked for 48 hour as a driver and did 24 hours as a burger flipper, as we have to recored working time would the burger job be counted in the week or can i dismiss it, and would that work in the burger job affect my EU regs

[mike-c]

delboytwo:

Mike-C:
I’m not sure if we are both understanding each other here. I’m saying if you drive for five days in a week, you will not be able to flip burgers for another two days. By driving that week you will come under the EU drivers hours regs which dictates that you will need a measured amount of weekly rest.

Hi mike

in my post

delboytwo wrote:
Coffeeholic wrote:
delboytwo wrote:
with regard the wtd he will have to recored it
If the other work is non transport related he won’t, which is what I said.

OK then your telling me that’s is OK for me to drive 5 days a week which i work under the EU reg and RTD and then i can go and do 2 days flipping burgers and the hours i work at the burger bar does not count for wtd

No Del, if you work for two days flipping burgers you will not have satisfied the EU driving requirements for weekly rest.

what i am trying to get at is can i work for 5 days as a driver then do 2 days other work in the same week and the 2 days work will not affect my EU regs and WTD

I’ve explained this bit above. No, after no more than 6 working days/shifts you need to take a weekly rest period. You could probably work one day flipping burgers but then you would need a weekly rest period as you are coming under the scope of EU driving regs that week.

delboytwo:
as we are drivers and we work under the EU reg and the RTD

if i worked for two days in a other job that is not driving would those days work be counted as WTD ( lets say there is no opt out agreement in the burger job) as its only part time and in theory no call for it

If you work two days in another none driving job then yes the hours would count towards WTD. But there is no requirement for you to record it if you have done no driving that week. Just as a plumber/warehouse worker/joiner etc. does not have to record it. It will be recorded as a matter of fact on any pay/hours slips or time sheets anyway. If you have drove in the same week then you come under the EU rules so you will need to record other days where you have not drove. As explained earlier just a simple start /finish time. You don’t need to break the day down as although there is a requirement for you to record the other days work, as you are not driving on that day your activities are not coming under the driving requirements for breaks etc… its just ‘other work’.

delboytwo:
lets say i worked for 48 hour as a driver and did 24 hours as a burger flipper, as we have to recored working time would the burger job be counted in the week or can i dismiss it, and would that work in the burger job affect my EU regs

if you have worked for 48 hours as a driver then you are bound by the RTD , this states that its not possible to ‘work’ for more than 60 hours in one week so you wouldn’t be able to work for another 24 hours .You’d have 12 hours left to work that week.You have two sets of rules to follow, EU driving regs tells you you nned a weely break after 6 shifts and RTD tells you that you cannot work more then 60 hours in one week. Burger job would have to be recorded as you have drove that week.

[delboytwo]

thanks Mike for that

[darkseeker]

Ok, well to be honest, I knew the bit about wtd and manual records.

In a round about way, you’ve answered the question about the digi tacho too;

What I was thinking is, say I’d (for argument’s sake) spent two days flipping burgers and later that week got a day in a truck with a digi tacho, could I record the flipping burgers days via the manual entry bit?

What you guys have said gets around the problem - i.e, fill in a tacho or roll with those two days and I don’t need to worry about entering it. Which is fair enough.

SO, what you’re saying is - even though I keep a note of who what and when in a diary (comes in handy when you’re all over the place and have a poor memory), I need to write it on the right bits of paper to keep the powers that be happy I know you’re right, but it doesn’t stop it being bloody rediculous ■■■■ red tape!

Have I got it right though - The diary’s fine for weeks where I don’t do any driving?

[mike-c]

darkseeker:
Ok, well to be honest, I knew the bit about wtd and manual records.

In a round about way, you’ve answered the question about the digi tacho too;

What I was thinking is, say I’d (for argument’s sake) spent two days flipping burgers and later that week got a day in a truck with a digi tacho, could I record the flipping burgers days via the manual entry bit?

What you guys have said gets around the problem - i.e, fill in a tacho or roll with those two days and I don’t need to worry about entering it. Which is fair enough.

As far as i know you can only ammend you last shift or the beginning of your new shift, i don’t think you can actually insert any days.

darkseeker:
SO, what you’re saying is - even though I keep a note of who what and when in a diary (comes in handy when you’re all over the place and have a poor memory), I need to write it on the right bits of paper to keep the powers that be happy I know you’re right, but it doesn’t stop it being bloody rediculous ■■■■ red tape!

Have I got it right though - The diary’s fine for weeks where I don’t do any driving?

Yep thats it. Now i’m not sure if this bit is true but …you can be done if you don’t carry enough pens !!