Indeed strange times, sadly i think a lot of lorry drivers will find themselves not furloughed but simply let go as companies tries to limit their liability in case the goal posts are not quite where everyone thinks they are, easily enough done with agency who must be having a hard time of it now.
Personally i’m in the camp of thinking the cure (crashing the economy and millions with their work prospects hit hard with mounting debts) is likely to be worse than the disease, and i hope its lifted before the damage now being done is too great to stop.
Unfortunately as all of us know there are many many ##### about, and these have made it so easy for management to decide who stays and who doesn’t in these very strange times…
Juddian:
Indeed strange times, sadly i think a lot of lorry drivers will find themselves not furloughed but simply let go as companies tries to limit their liability in case the goal posts are not quite where everyone thinks they are, easily enough done with agency who must be having a hard time of it now.
Personally i’m in the camp of thinking the cure (crashing the economy and millions with their work prospects hit hard with mounting debts) is likely to be worse than the disease, and i hope its lifted before the damage now being done is too great to stop.
Youre not alone in viewing the cure as being too costly, but I dont agree with you.
If we allow this virus to run freely, there could easily be 500,000 deaths due to it. That is roughly about 1% of the 80% who could catch it.
Those deaths are not the end of it. Due to hospitals being overstretched, even if only offering palliative care to the dying, there will be other deaths due to inadequate facilities. RTAs wont be getting intensive care beds. Routine operations to cure pain and enable workers to get back to factories wont happen.
In 2018 there were 540,000 deaths in the UK. Letting this bug loose could see that same number, plus the 500,000 extra in just a few months. Effectively a 4 fold increase: We cant burn em quick enough. Is that how a civilized country should behave?
.
We, and our kids will be paying for years to come, but tough, ■■■■ happens, if I get a lower pension or pay more tax, then I`ll put up with that.
Be interesting to see which of us is right Franglais, Sweden if it continues the policy of no lockdown will be the country to watch, if you are right then at least 250,000 should die directly from Covid 19 there.
For some reason i thought today was Sunday, my weird shift pattern sometimes has me not knowing what day of the week it is , and looked in the Mail on Sunday for Peter Hitchen’s Sunday column (i normally check his blog)…this is the first time for years i’ve looked at any maintream form of news or media, page after page and item after item about this virus and its dangers, so gald i don’t watch listen to or read anything from the mainstream media, i advise giving the state’s broacasting and propaganda systems a good ignoring.
peirre:
The furlough scheme is initially for 3 months however it can be extended if deemed necessary by the government. The terms given to me when I accepted furlough included informing my employer IF I take on work elsewhere
And what happens if you do, do they end your employment? Or just not pay you the 80%? Can’t see it being allowed to claim 80% and also work as that’s not the point of the government scheme
Furloughing is done on an employer by employer basis if an employee has multiple jobs so you can be furloughed by one but work for another. And it makes sense because if you can’t then it means that companies or sectors that need workers desperately, such as hauliers moving food or medical supplies or farmers needing workers to harvest food, can’t get staff.
Franglais:
Youre not alone in viewing the cure as being too costly, but I dont agree with you.
If we allow this virus to run freely, there could easily be 500,000 deaths due to it. That is roughly about 1% of the 80% who could catch it.
Mathematical modelling has shown that what we’re doing prevents just 1% of deaths no matter how we exit the lockdown because there will be no herd immunity so roughly the same amount of people who would have got it without a lockdown will still get it and all we achieve by lockdown is give various nations health services a chance to cope with it so any deaths saved are mostly due to not having people die from a lack of ventilators. Even the government haven’t denied this. They’ve never said it’ll reduce the number who get it, they have just said it “flattens the curve” so the peak number of those in intensive care is within the NHS’s ability to handle it.
Juddian:
Be interesting to see which of us is right Franglais, Sweden if it continues the policy of no lockdown will be the country to watch, if you are right then at least 250,000 should die directly from Covid 19 there.
For some reason i thought today was Sunday, my weird shift pattern sometimes has me not knowing what day of the week it is , and looked in the Mail on Sunday for Peter Hitchen’s Sunday column (i normally check his blog)…this is the first time for years i’ve looked at any maintream form of news or media, page after page and item after item about this virus and its dangers, so gald i don’t watch listen to or read anything from the mainstream media, i advise giving the state’s broacasting and propaganda systems a good ignoring.
I dont think there is any "right" solution here. Whatever happens there is suffering and cost now, and in the future. If you find the news of the dangers of this virus challenging, then I agree with you. It is horrible. Ignore the mainstream media? Well, each to their own of course. I reckon we are better able to form judgment if we are informed, rather than ignoring tough news. Last week Hitchens made a pig`s ear of the facts in his piece. I note that he has now edited it… somewhat.
Franglais:
take the money and keep the system ticking over.
Good old Fordist economics that I was flamed for daring to promote.That’s the principle that every union fight for higher wages and decent social security benefits was based on.Like the shopkeeper moaning about scroungers on benefits and miners striking for more wages.Then he gets what he wished for and wonders why he has no customers because they can’t afford to buy his stuff.The same applies in the case of giving the work to cheap labour foreign workers who don’t spend anything in his shop.
Oh wait one of the possible the reasons why the economy was shut down under the cover of a fake virus ( insufficient industry, unsustainable trade deficit, insufficient highly paid jobs to create a consumer boom and what they were buying went on imports ) will still all be there if/when they try to re start it again.A bit like trying to run or re start an engine with the fuel lines clamped.
Or 2 return to work under new CCP puppet Vichy management.Good luck with that when the 3 bed semi is allocated to two families having been seized from its owner under emergency powers and who’ll be re allocated according to need and/or Party loyalty.Or disappear as an ongoing ‘virus’ victim.Along with anyone else who dares to disagree with the regime.
Or 3 managed apocalypse, unrecoverable exponentially compounding contagion caused by a bioweapon, intended to pave the way for eventual Chinese invasion and colonisation when enough have died to make the virus unsustainable.Hopefully US and Brit Forces decide to go against compromised government appeasement orders and retaliate with a devastating nuclear strike on China.I for one die happy.
Juddian:
Be interesting to see which of us is right Franglais, Sweden if it continues the policy of no lockdown will be the country to watch, if you are right then at least 250,000 should die directly from Covid 19 there.
If the most extreme, but ironically arguably for me preferable, of my hypothetical scenarios is right why does it have sufficient contagion and virulence to take out 250,000 and then suddenly stop at that.Bearing in mind Italian,Spanish,US,UK ( non ) ‘revoveries’/natural herd immunity v cases/deaths figures.Why should Sweden be massively different.Realistically the worst case bioweapon scenario it only stops when it’s killed enough people to stop its sustainable transmission.On that note unlike us maybe Sweden didn’t import enough people from China to start a big enough fire in that regard and its average population density is nothing like ours to create the same rate of spread.While if it’s a bio weapon Sweden wasn’t high on the CCP list of targets not being a major food producer.
The clue as always is that ‘recoveries’ ( bearing in mind no confirmation or proof of natural immunity in the form of anti bodies clear of virus ) are still outweighed there by deaths, let alone cases, by almost 2 to 1.As opposed to here where you really don’t want to know those figures.
yep, i agreed and had to sign a document, we did try to work through it but got moaned at (part of building trade) majority of the small extension type folk were not happy to see us, as they were staying at home, we closed and got moaned at, reopened at got moaned at, great british public eh, so ended up closing and being furloughed, my boss as been really good with me over the last couple of years so i,m ok with it and will try and support him as he as me in the past… but just wondering with the bank holidays coming up what actually happens?? i know i will get 80% which is fine, but thinking of the employer as they normally pay the bank hols out of their own funds, are the govt going to withdraw any bank hol from the 80%? for those weeks with a days bank hol are they only going to pay 65% ish and expect employer to make it up to 80■■?
dle1uk:
yep, i agreed and had to sign a document, we did try to work through it but got moaned at (part of building trade) majority of the small extension type folk were not happy to see us, as they were staying at home, we closed and got moaned at, reopened at got moaned at, great british public eh, so ended up closing and being furloughed, my boss as been really good with me over the last couple of years so i,m ok with it and will try and support him as he as me in the past… but just wondering with the bank holidays coming up what actually happens?? i know i will get 80% which is fine, but thinking of the employer as they normally pay the bank hols out of their own funds, are the govt going to withdraw any bank hol from the 80%? for those weeks with a days bank hol are they only going to pay 65% ish and expect employer to make it up to 80■■?
‘If’ you think it could help make the difference between having a job to go back to or not the obvious choice is to waive your holiday pay if the guvnor has to pay it from no revenues.It’s not like you could spend it on any holiday activeties anyway.
Anyone that has been promised this 80% might feel some security but bear in mind that not a penny has been paid out yet by the gov.
Do you really think that they are going to honour every single claim?
If your company find out later that they are not eligible in full or part, do you think they will cover your arse?
I bet half that are expecting it will be lucky to actually receive what they expect.
The sweeping statement issued by the gov early on was to stem the panic from the shutdown, they will trickle the bad news out down the line by piecemeal, it’s much easier to digest.
I suggest that until you have the money in your bank, and your company reopens and you have your job back, cancel all direct debits, spend nothing and prepare for the worst
dle1uk:
yep, i agreed and had to sign a document, we did try to work through it but got moaned at (part of building trade) majority of the small extension type folk were not happy to see us, as they were staying at home, we closed and got moaned at, reopened at got moaned at, great british public eh, so ended up closing and being furloughed, my boss as been really good with me over the last couple of years so i,m ok with it and will try and support him as he as me in the past… but just wondering with the bank holidays coming up what actually happens?? i know i will get 80% which is fine, but thinking of the employer as they normally pay the bank hols out of their own funds, are the govt going to withdraw any bank hol from the 80%? for those weeks with a days bank hol are they only going to pay 65% ish and expect employer to make it up to 80■■?
I think the government pays a bank holiday normally and the employer is reimbursed
idrive:
Anyone that has been promised this 80% might feel some security but bear in mind that not a penny has been paid out yet by the gov.
Do you really think that they are going to honour every single claim?
If your company find out later that they are not eligible in full or part, do you think they will cover your arse?
I bet half that are expecting it will be lucky to actually receive what they expect.
The sweeping statement issued by the gov early on was to stem the panic from the shutdown, they will trickle the bad news out down the line by piecemeal, it’s much easier to digest.
I suggest that until you have the money in your bank, and your company reopens and you have your job back, cancel all direct debits, spend nothing and prepare for the worst
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+1
thats the likely scenario there.
im fortunate in respect that i have no credit card,or any other kind of debt other than a 20k mortgage on one of my properties so no biggy there.
i dont pay tv licence fees and apart from tinterweb and mobile bill then theres no grief there either.
i wouldnt like to be one of the unfortunates dripped up to the chin getting laid off whilst being in negative equity and a couple of cars still to pay for over the next three years and the credit cards maxed out with the prospect of no job to return to.
dle1uk:
yep, i agreed and had to sign a document, we did try to work through it but got moaned at (part of building trade) majority of the small extension type folk were not happy to see us, as they were staying at home, we closed and got moaned at, reopened at got moaned at, great british public eh, so ended up closing and being furloughed, my boss as been really good with me over the last couple of years so i,m ok with it and will try and support him as he as me in the past… but just wondering with the bank holidays coming up what actually happens?? i know i will get 80% which is fine, but thinking of the employer as they normally pay the bank hols out of their own funds, are the govt going to withdraw any bank hol from the 80%? for those weeks with a days bank hol are they only going to pay 65% ish and expect employer to make it up to 80■■?
‘If’ you think it could help make the difference between having a job to go back to or not the obvious choice is to waive your holiday pay if the guvnor has to pay it from no revenues.It’s not like you could spend it on any holiday activeties anyway.
Ok, but that would depend on how your employer has treated you in the past.
How they have looked after you, whether or not you have been looked upon as part of ‘the team’.
Or…or on the other hand have you been treated somewhere between a school kid and ■■■■ on their shoes.
Former?
I would definitely at least consider doing that yeh, I can think of at least 2 former employers in that category.
Latter?.
Not a chance in hell, why tf should I give them any concessions after all the negative crap I have got off them, would be my view in that scenario.
I would just get another job, there are firms out there who prefer experienced drivers, and there will be even if all this ■■■■ closes down a few.
the nodding donkey:
I think, a lot of the lazy lady gardens who are currently thinking off, or boasting about, their taxpayer funded holidays, may find themselves in a spot of bother when this is over.
I think this thing is though that if a company needs to furlough a certain percentage of its staff, then this is far better done on a voluntary basis, with individual drivers taking the decision as to whether they should work or not, based primarily on factors like their own susceptibility to the virus due to their age/ underlying health issues and so “laziness” doesn’t really come into it, particularly since Government advice is not to go to work if at all possible. This also allows younger and healthier employees with greater outgoings to continue to earn the full wage.
the nodding donkey:
I think, a lot of the lazy lady gardens who are currently thinking off, or boasting about, their taxpayer funded holidays, may find themselves in a spot of bother when this is over.
I think this thing is though that if a company needs to furlough a certain percentage of its staff, then this is far better done on a voluntary basis, with individual drivers taking the decision as to whether they should work or not, based primarily on factors like their own susceptibility to the virus due to their age/ underlying health issues and so “laziness” doesn’t really come into it, particularly since Government advice is not to go to work if at all possible. This also allows younger and healthier employees with greater outgoings to continue to earn the full wage.
I noticed a steady stream of the older hands waiting up to see the TM’s this week and I have no doubt they were getting first dibs on getting furloughed, think of the young ones.
We haven’t furloughed anyone yet but no doubt it will be coming.
Suits me though, more than happy to stay working and happy to see some of the more vulnerable isolated for a few weeks.
Harry Monk:
I think this thing is though that if a company needs to furlough a certain percentage of its staff, then this is far better done on a voluntary basis, with individual drivers taking the decision as to whether they should work or not, based primarily on factors like their own susceptibility to the virus due to their age/ underlying health issues and so “laziness” doesn’t really come into it, particularly since Government advice is not to go to work if at all possible. This also allows younger and healthier employees with greater outgoings to continue to earn the full wage.
^ The situation of increasing the pension age rather than lowering it makes no sense either, regardless.Forcing older workers onto the job market, who’d otherwise not need to be there, is in no ones interest at any time.
the nodding donkey:
I think, a lot of the lazy lady gardens who are currently thinking off, or boasting about, their taxpayer funded holidays, may find themselves in a spot of bother when this is over.
I think this thing is though that if a company needs to furlough a certain percentage of its staff, then this is far better done on a voluntary basis, with individual drivers taking the decision as to whether they should work or not, based primarily on factors like their own susceptibility to the virus due to their age/ underlying health issues and so “laziness” doesn’t really come into it, particularly since Government advice is not to go to work if at all possible. This also allows younger and healthier employees with greater outgoings to continue to earn the full wage.
I do agree with that, and I guess that is what is happening in many places.
What I was specifically referring too (and probably didnt make clear enough), is those who jumped at the opportunity to sit at home, and get paid 80% of their wages, for doing ■■■■ all, and are openly rejoicing in it. Being furloughed is a serious matter, and the full ramifications of it are not fully understood by most. I do hope that the right people can resume their jobs, after this crap is over.
Harry Monk:
I think this thing is though that if a company needs to furlough a certain percentage of its staff, then this is far better done on a voluntary basis, with individual drivers taking the decision as to whether they should work or not, based primarily on factors like their own susceptibility to the virus due to their age/ underlying health issues and so “laziness” doesn’t really come into it, particularly since Government advice is not to go to work if at all possible. This also allows younger and healthier employees with greater outgoings to continue to earn the full wage.
^ The situation of increasing the pension age rather than lowering it makes no sense either, regardless.Forcing older workers onto the job market, who’d otherwise not need to be there, is in no ones interest at any time.
So, who is going to pay the ever increasing pension costs of the increasing number of pensioners, who are living longer…?
, and looked in the Mail on Sunday for Peter Hitchen’s Sunday column (i normally check his blog)…this is the first time for years i’ve looked at any maintream form of news or media, page after page and item after item about this virus and its dangers, so gald i don’t watch listen to or read anything from the mainstream media, i advise giving the state’s broacasting and propaganda systems a good ignoring.
