Compulsory masks

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
901

JeffA:

robroy:
This just goes from the ridiculous to the sublime. :laughing:

We’ve got comparisons and analogies with the blitz. :laughing:

We’ve got inane stuff like …‘‘You don’t see Surgeons wearing snoods whilst operating’’ :laughing:

We have analogies and comparisons to Covid with holding a loaded gun to some bodies head… :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing:

Ffs some of you lot are beyond help and well away with it. :laughing: :laughing:

Open your minds, open your eyes and look around to how things ACTUALLY are :bulb: instead of listening to official bodies telling you how things are as they want you to believe them to be (for whatever unknown reason.)

Nobody is denying Covid exists, certainly not me, but the gross exaggeration (again for whatever unknown reason) is blindingly obvious to the less gullible amongst us.

And we’ve got you - who seems to offer nothing much but laughing at your own jokes.

Nah…the jokes I was laughing at were you lot …and your ridiculous ■■■■ statements and analogies on all this.

902

JeffA:

Mazzer2:

JeffA:

Mazzer2:
As for masks do they work? Don’t they work? You can find research to back up your point of view whichever side of the arguement you’re on if you’ve nothing better to do with your time.
Northern Ireland currently has a higher infection rate than England yet has consistantly had stricter rules on masks. What can the great TN scientists conclude from this?

Hve you ever seen a doctor operate on someone without a mask? Masks obviously work. The next time someone you love has an operation you are going to run in and pull off their masks are you? Is that what david icke told you to do?

Have you tried finding out why the rate is higher in NI? Or did that just seem to support your point so you instantly latched onto it mistakenly?

Nice take what someone says and twist it I haven’t said whether I’m pro or anti mask just put it out there to see the reaction and you provided it not sure what David Icke has to do with it but hey nothing like jumping to the wrong conclusion.
You continually go on about doctors and operations but the public are not doctors and the vast majority have no understanding of sterile procedures as was plain to see when this first started and the amount of people wearing sterilised gloves. How many masks does a doctor go through in an operation? How long does the average member of the public keep their mask for? You are comparing a highly skilled person who has had sterile procedures as part of their training from day one. How much sterile procedure training have you had? As I said do they work don’t they work? Yes in the hands of people trained in sterile procedures in the hands of the public probably less so.
I wear a mask as and when i.e in an enclosed space with no one about no mask same space with people about wear a mask it’s not exactly rocket science unlike some on here would have you believe.
Just because someone offers a different opinion don’t automatically assume that they are at the nutcase end of the spectrum or that your opinion is the only one.

Sterile procedure training? Not sure what thats got to do with what we are talking about. The point is you wear a mask over your face to stop the spread of germs from your breath/spit. What’s so hard to understand about this? If masks didn’t work the doctors wouldn’t have been wearing them for 80 years would they.

You really have no understanding of how sterile procedures work, how many people do you see wearing their mask incorrectly? nose not covered being a common mistake, when eating not removing their mask completly both of these examples allow the outside of the mask to be covered by the wearers breath which when the mask is then pulled back on the virus is on the wrong side of the mask and then spread as the wearer breathes out.
Do masks help reduce the risk yes, to the extent that Joe Public thinks probably not because people are not using them properly which then gives a false sense of security. In Germany there is only one type of mask allowed no home made efforts and those allowed are to surgical standard how many in the UK are to this standard? Have you seen any masks come with guidance as to how long they should be worn before being binned? I haven’t, as to your continued comparison with surgeons how hard does a surgeon breathe while carrying out a procedure compared to fatty going up the stairs in a shop? As is continualy pointed out to you no comparison, but you Facebook and David Icke all have something in common I wouldn’t take one iota of advice on this from any of you as all you do is parrot your view with very little understanding

903

I do wonder how the noisy minority who find the task of putting a simple mask on difficult , get on with getting dressed in the morning , I should imagine there wife’s / partners never hear the end of them having to tie there shoe laces , pull there socks up

904

robroy:
I get the ‘‘One rule for them.’’ etc,.I get the hypocrisy, I get the setting examples thing, but ffs who cares?
The only reason you would care is if you either hated Johnson (we all know you do) or if you missed out on a party yourself last year by blindly conforming to every [zb] thing you were told to do.
Maybe you should have been like many of us and bent the rules last year, there was no way I was going to miss out enjoying Christnas last year after working for it… just because…‘‘I’ve been told not to’’, .
You should try bending the rules a little yourself on some things Franglais…shock horror. if it bothers you so much.

Unlike you and your weird fascination with this stuff., I am just so effin sick of it!
…it’s like everything else in this life, you look after yourself, by the sane token I don’t expect anybody outside of my friends or family to look out for or ‘look after’ me, and I expect others to do the same for themselves…it ain’t MY job.
So if you want to look after yourself to the extent that you keep on rambling on about…just lock yourself away until all this sh is over.

I dont point out Johnsons lies and hypocrisy because I hate him. I do dislike him because he is a liar and a hypocrite.
(Generally I take that attitude to most people, I decide whether or not to like them on their actions)

I dont blindly conform. I listen to the experts and take on board *their* advice. The lockdown last year ■■■■■■ me off intensely. I didnt follow it because I wanted to conform, I followed it because I thought the medical advice was about right.
This year the current Gov advice is to keep on partying. I will not be isolated in my hermitage, but will be keeping a lower profile than normal. If the medical advice changes I may do differently.
But given the Govs record on timely advice I wont be conforming to anything they say. What I do may, or may not, coincide with their advice, but a coincidence is all it is.
I don t do what I do, either because Ive been told to, or because I`ve been told not to.

I don`t hate Johnson, I dislike and try to ignore him.

robroy:
I am just so effin sick of it!

robroy:
.just lock yourself away until all this sh is over.

Calm yourself down, mate. This is the new reality.
As medics get on top of it, we`ll maybe just get a booster every 6 months. Treatments will be developed for those who get it more seriously. Things will get better.
It is serious. It is very serious. But we will get better at handling it.

Pointless getting sick of it. Pointless locking yerself away. Deal with it.
It is a bit ■■■■, but we ain`t got much choice.

Now as you`ve already said “Learn to live with it”

905

Franglais:

robroy:
I get the ‘‘One rule for them.’’ etc,.I get the hypocrisy, I get the setting examples thing, but ffs who cares?
The only reason you would care is if you either hated Johnson (we all know you do) or if you missed out on a party yourself last year by blindly conforming to every [zb] thing you were told to do.
Maybe you should have been like many of us and bent the rules last year, there was no way I was going to miss out enjoying Christnas last year after working for it… just because…‘‘I’ve been told not to’’, .
You should try bending the rules a little yourself on some things Franglais…shock horror. if it bothers you so much.

Unlike you and your weird fascination with this stuff., I am just so effin sick of it!
…it’s like everything else in this life, you look after yourself, by the sane token I don’t expect anybody outside of my friends or family to look out for or ‘look after’ me, and I expect others to do the same for themselves…it ain’t MY job.
So if you want to look after yourself to the extent that you keep on rambling on about…just lock yourself away until all this sh is over.

I dont point out Johnsons lies and hypocrisy because I hate him. I do dislike him because he is a liar and a hypocrite.
(Generally I take that attitude to most people, I decide whether or not to like them on their actions)

I dont blindly conform. I listen to the experts and take on board *their* advice. The lockdown last year ■■■■■■ me off intensely. I didnt follow it because I wanted to conform, I followed it because I thought the medical advice was about right.
This year the current Gov advice is to keep on partying. I will not be isolated in my hermitage, but will be keeping a lower profile than normal. If the medical advice changes I may do differently.
But given the Govs record on timely advice I wont be conforming to anything they say. What I do may, or may not, coincide with their advice, but a coincidence is all it is.
I don t do what I do, either because Ive been told to, or because I`ve been told not to.

I don`t hate Johnson, I dislike and try to ignore him.

robroy:
I am just so effin sick of it!

robroy:
.just lock yourself away until all this sh is over.

Calm yourself down, mate. This is the new reality.
As medics get on top of it, we`ll maybe just get a booster every 6 months. Treatments will be developed for those who get it more seriously. Things will get better.
It is serious. It is very serious. But we will get better at handling it.

Pointless getting sick of it. Pointless locking yerself away. Deal with it.
It is a bit [zb], but we ain`t got much choice.

Now as you`ve already said “Learn to live with it”

Hmmmm I see what you did thete, a double whammy paraphrased AND out of context no less… :neutral_face:
I’m as calm as calm can be thanks mate, and then some, I certainly don’t get hysterical about all this stuff…nor anything else tbh. :neutral_face:

My ‘effin sick’ statement was a comparison to you and me on this, and your obvious, (not to mention unhealthy) fascination with it all,.where as me, like I said…effin sick of it all.

I’ve no intention of locking myself away, it was you I was referring to, meaning that if I was as pre.occupied with all this as you appear to be, I wouldn’t leave the house.
But as you suggest and as I’ve already said,.I am living with it …with minimal fuss. :bulb:

Apart from that my post was me the cat, getting among you the pigeons, in an effort to liven up the thread, .telling you I broke the rules last year. :open_mouth: :smiley:
Thought you’d be horrified. :laughing:

Didn’t work. : :cry:

906

Franglais:
There are some recurring themes to some posts here.

One is the phrase “Living with it”.
Yes, Covid is gonna be around for a long while, we are going to have to live with it.
We all in transport live and move around heavy moving vehicles. We live the risk of injury from them, but because we arent loons we dont (often) get knocked down.
What would be a risky environment for a 3 year old is less so for us because we manage the risk. We look all around when we are walking in a yard, we dont run (!) around blind corners. We mostly are so used to it, we dont even know we are doing the sensible thing.
It *isnt* common knowledge, but most of us have been doing it so long, it seems like it is. That is why we cant understand cars squeezing past when we manoeuvre, it seems crazy to us, but we are living with theses risk permanently, some of them aren`t.
People working on gas tanker ships are living with greater risks. They manage those risks by following procedures even more strictly than us. They learn until after months it is just “normal”.

“Living with Covid” is not pretending it isnt there. It isnt reverting to how things were three years ago.
It is adapting in some fairly minor ways. After time those changes will become everyday, and no great issue. We will be “living with it”.
We dont complain that we need eyes in the back of our heads when we are in a busy transport yard do we? It is normal to keep vigilant. We look out for loons on bikes etc when we drive, sure itd be nice if they werent driving under our wheels, but that is the environment we work in. We have learnt to "live with them". We dont pretend problems arent there, we dont ignore them.

Another one: “some say masks are good, some say masks indifferent, or even bad”?
Can we lump the that into Good/Not Good? Just for ease of language.

There are many surveys and studies out there. Many of them are older ones, as the wearing of masks (in the west at least) by the public hasnt been on the radar, so until recently wasnt looked at.
There are now more studies, they are being discussed by those who understand the questions to ask, and in the best “Peer review” principles ripped apart if wrong.
What was learnt by experts, years ago, may not be recognised now. I know lots have problems with this.
Maybe think of it like this: we drive cars that do 50mpg. Years ago we drove cars that 20 or 30mpg.
What has changed?
Crude oil is the same. Iron ore is the same. Electricity is the same electrons shuffling along bits of copper.
So its easy enough to see that we have learnt more over time and developed more and more. Easy to understand when we look at things isnt it. A caveman had the same basic resources and brain as us (doubtless some cavemen had better brains than some drivers) but we do understand much more as time goes on.
We have learnt to refine fuels more precisely, make stronger & lighter metal alloys, design electronic management systems. Bit obvious really?
So when we look at what experts are saying about masks who should we be listening most to?
Those who took a degree 50 years ago, and more importantly stopped in job training, and retired 20 years ago?
As we look at studies and surveys used by experts we look at the knowledge applicable to Covid.

Saying a particular mask doesnt stop paint fumes is....irrelevant... To protect against Covid we need to stop the moisture the Covid virus travels in. The virus doesnt transmit by itself, only via water droplets.
It doesnt matter if the holes in a mask are ten times bigger than the virus itself. If the mask stops the much bigger (though still tiny) drops of our spit that is worthwhile. Saying a mask doesnt stop the virus itself or doesn`t stop paint vapour is pointless.

So because of the debate earlier on there have been lots of studies made of masks transmissions etc.
Now there are so many that they can be meaningfully combined in big meta-studies.
Those that are already peer reviewed and stand up to criticism are bundled together in much more robust studies.

Do we read reviews from 20 years ago when we are buying a commuter car tomorrow?
So why listen to those who left research or medicine years ago? The old codger in the local pub may be OK for a laugh and maybe he was a mechanic before retiring years ago, but how much does he know if he hasnt picked up a spanner for 20 years? His stories about carburrettor Jags may be good, but his advice on buying modern shopping trollies wont be as good as the 30 year old still with her hands under the bonnet every day, reading all the latest stuff to keep on top of everything.

Well, the latest studies combining results from all over are all out there to be seen: they may not be as cuddly as a bloke in a cardigan telling you “Dont worry I know what is really going on. Trust me and youll be ok.” Nice as woulkd be to relax and be happy trusting him, the world isn`t made that way.

google.com/search?q=meta+st … nt=gws-wiz

Check for yourselves.

Extracts for those who don`t want to scroll through too much, top of the list the British Medical Journal
bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068302

“Conclusions This systematic review and meta-analysis suggests that several personal protective and social measures, including handwashing, mask wearing, and physical distancing are associated with reductions in the incidence covid-19. Public health efforts to implement public health measures should consider community health and sociocultural needs, and future research is needed to better understand the effectiveness of public health measures in the context of covid-19 vaccination.”

There are pages of explanations and open analysis of data. for those who understand and have time and resource to check it, it`s all open.

It doesn`t say all will be OK if we do X,Y and Z. It does say that mask wearing is a going to reduce C-19 cases.
In the very messy real world we live in that is as good as it (honestly) gets. Anyone saying they really know the answers is a fool or a liar.

There is no simple fix. It is a complicated world where “[zb] happens”.
Let`s all grow up and learn to live with that thought.

Yes but what you fail to realise is that millions of people catch Covid and nothing very harmful happens to them. We should just stop worrying about it…and live with it [emoji1787]

907

^^^^^^
A man talking sense, but apparentlly the way forward is to get totally engrossed in this stuff,.do more research on it than a university ptrofessor…in your free time :open_mouth: , and carry on the ‘scaremongering’ on behalf of the ‘scaremongers’.
However I’m with you on it, life is too short as it is to worry about stuff, leave it to those who get paid to worry.

908

Sense? This is the same guy that reckons doctors stand about doing nothing. :unamused:

I take it neither have known or seen anyone suffering or dying from covid.

909

jakethesnake:
Sense? This is the same guy that reckons doctors stand about doing nothing. :unamused:

I take it neither have known or seen anyone suffering or dying from covid.

Either back that statement up Jakey me old mate, or apologise for getting me mixed up with somebody else.
I have NEVER said that about Doctors.
…Your call.

I know of at least 3 people personally who have died WITH Covid., but none personally who have died OF Covid.
Hope that answers your question.

910

jakethesnake:
I take it neither have known or seen anyone suffering or dying from covid.

Neither have you, despite what you’ll inevitably claim to the contrary. I know over 50 people who’ve contacted Covid. I’ve not witnessed any of them die and any suffering they may have done was in the comfort of their own beds for a few days.

911

stu675:
Yes but what you fail to realise is that millions of people catch Covid and nothing very harmful happens to them. We should just stop worrying about it…and live with it [emoji1787]

robroy:
A man talking sense, but apparentlly the way forward is to get totally engrossed in this stuff,.do more research on it than a university ptrofessor…in your free time , and carry on the ‘scaremongering’ on behalf of the ‘scaremongers’.
However I’m with you on it, life is too short as it is to worry about stuff, leave it to those who get paid to worry.

Last year 2020 more people in the UK died from Covid* than anything else.

More than died of Covid than of heart disease, lung cancer, dementia…anything else.
The biggest single cause of death…Get It?

ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation … ables/2020
“The leading cause of death in England and Wales in 2020 was the coronavirus (COVID-19), with 73,766 deaths (12.1% of all deaths); the second most common cause of death was dementia and Alzheimer’s disease, accounting for 11.5% of all deaths registered in 2020 (compared with 12.5% in 2019, when dementia and Alzheimer’s disease was the leading cause of death).”

In spite of all the precautions, in spite of the vaccines, in spite of everything. The biggest cause of death, UK, 2020, was Covid.
Now before you bash away at you keyboard that is not exaggeration. That is repeating what is a fact. A FACT. Verifiable, check it yourself.
Because it is a big number and you find it hard to understand or accept doesn`t make it fictitious.

Why do you keep saying it is an exaggerated problem? What information do you, Mr RobRoy, have that is missing to the NHS, WHO, ONS and most everyone else in the whole world?
The 3 dead people known to you? There are 607,922 dead people known to the NHS and ONS. I think their data base is a wee bit better than yours, don`t you?

You keep telling us you “get it”, but I really think you don`t. I keep looking for ways to show you the size of the numbers, the scale of the problem, but for some reason you keep arguing it is either a conspiracy or miscalculation or summat.

Come on then, where are we all going wrong. Weve put up figures from the NHS, WHO, ONS, BMJ, and loads of links all of which can be followed and checked. How many of those links are somehow wrong? Please tell us. I dont like false info so please tell me what is wrong.
How many links to good info have you posted?
I dont think youre a liar or owt, so where is it we are going wrong?
Where, Why, How, are all we going wrong?

*primary cause. Check the links the details are all there.
If you think there is faulty data gathering or analysis, tell us or tell them. It is complicated to gather data, certainly true, deciding what is “the cause of death” isn`t a simple “box ticking” exercise, that is true. The methods used are extensively explained on the site.

912

the maoster:

jakethesnake:
I take it neither have known or seen anyone suffering or dying from covid.

Neither have you, despite what you’ll inevitably claim to the contrary. I know over 50 people who’ve contacted Covid. I’ve not witnessed any of them die and any suffering they may have done was in the comfort of their own beds for a few days.

Exactly, my daughters, my son in law,.their 2 kids., 2 mates,.and at least 6 acquaintances/work colleagues,.a whole range of different ages, some worse than others but all saying the sane thing…like a dose of flu,.feel like crap.
The 3 I mentioned earlier who died, one guy in his 70s ,.a woman who always looked ill as long as I’ve known her, in her 60s,.and a mate’s wife who had cancer…all had underlying health issues.

913

But how many of them had other underlying problems? and would have died anyway or were already terminally ill then caught covid and were then registered as a covid death,my wife’s aunt age 93 had pneumonia doctor’s said it would kill her 3 days before her death she tested positive for covid she was recorded as a covid death not pneumonia, she died with covid but it wasn’t covid that killed her.
The died within 28 days of a positive covid test is meaningless day 1 test positive day 10 over it, day 15 die of a heart attack due to being a fat unhealthy knacker bingo covid death really? For some people all covid did was bring their demise a bit quicker their lifestyle and health meant they were not going to see out old age anyway.
No one will know the true figure as there isn’t a standard measurement of covid deaths different countries use different methods so comparisions are hard to make, but closing health systems to anything but covid is going to result in an upsurge of cancer, heart disease etc and people needlessly dying

914

Franglais are there figures for the state of health for the 12% who died of covid? I doubt very much that all were fit and healthy yes there will anomolies where healthy people died from it just like people who have smoked and drunk all their lives reach 100, but in the majority of covid cases it kills those who are less than healthy and many of them are less than healthy due to their unhealthy lifestyles, want to avoid being a covid statistic eat a bit less weigh a bit less and walk a bit more.

915

Mazzer2:
But how many of them had other underlying problems? and would have died anyway or were already terminally ill then caught covid and were then registered as a covid death,my wife’s aunt age 93 had pneumonia doctor’s said it would kill her 3 days before her death she tested positive for covid she was recorded as a covid death not pneumonia, she died with covid but it wasn’t covid that killed her.
The died within 28 days of a positive covid test is meaningless day 1 test positive day 10 over it, day 15 die of a heart attack due to being a fat unhealthy knacker bingo covid death really? For some people all covid did was bring their demise a bit quicker their lifestyle and health meant they were not going to see out old age anyway.
No one will know the true figure as there isn’t a standard measurement of covid deaths different countries use different methods so comparisions are hard to make, but closing health systems to anything but covid is going to result in an upsurge of cancer, heart disease etc and people needlessly dying

Did you bother to follow the links?
You certainly are a very quick reader.
Your questions are addressed in the ONS and NHS sites.

Mazzer2:
Franglais are there figures for the state of health for the 12% who died of covid?

Yes there are.
There are long tables of stats according to age, gender, underlying conditions, area of country, etc etc. The stats are very detailed.
Ive put up links before. If on one else does it now, Ill do it again later.
ONS and click through to the bits you want.

You got a problem with them? Fine.
Many professionals argue over the best definitions to use. Of course they do, we need good info to see what is happening.
The methods may be less than perfect (everything is less than perfect) so what to do? Ignore it all? That would be crazy, so we go with what`s available.

What definitions do you think are better than those being used? We can all agree that good info is necessary, cant we? Saying its all ■■■■ without any idea, let alone suggestion, of what is better is not very clever in the real world. How would you define Covid deaths?

916

I would define a covid death as one where covid caused the persons death, if they had underlying issues then those should be recorded with the addition that the person had covid which may have complicated their underlying issue.
I have never said it is all ■■■■ covid is definatly real and people are dying from it but to the extent that we are lead to believe I doubt the recovery rate is in the top end of the 90% and of the couple % that do die a good percentage had underlying problems is it highly contagious yes is it more deadly than other diseases probably no. People will continue to die from it because they will not take simple measures to improve their health you only had to see the queues after the first lockdown at fast food restaurants to see that no amount of mask wearing or lockdown will save them.

917

Mazzer2:
s is it more deadly than other diseases probably no.

What do you mean by that?

There are other diseases with worse outcomes: If you do catch it then you are more likely to die, but you may be less likely to catch it.
There are diseases which are more contagious: You are more likely to catch it, but if you do, it is less likely to be fatal.

COVID was the biggest killer in the UK last year. It`s combination of being a bit deadly and quite virulent has enabled it to kill and make ill so many.
No other disease killed as many, certainly no virus or transmissible disease got anywhere near.

Ill look at the rest in a bit. ■■■■ coffee machine needs a descale so Im putting my efforts where it will do most good!

918

Listening to radio this morning it was suggested to uninvite all those you’ve invited for Xmas if they’d not been jabbed/ wear a face mask , another caller said that was a bit unfair at this late date , it was be better to let them eat on the patio set in the garden or if it’s raining / snowing let them eat in the garage / shed
But most people were in agreement to just uninvite them
I’d personally stick them in the shed

919

robroy:

jakethesnake:
Sense? This is the same guy that reckons doctors stand about doing nothing. :unamused:

I take it neither have known or seen anyone suffering or dying from covid.

Either back that statement up Jakey me old mate, or apologise for getting me mixed up with somebody else.
I have NEVER said that about Doctors.
…Your call.

I know of at least 3 people personally who have died WITH Covid., but none personally who have died OF Covid.
Hope that answers your question.

No, you misunderstood me. I was talking about Stu.
You said he was talking sense and I was letting you know what he said about doctors.

920

the maoster:

jakethesnake:
I take it neither have known or seen anyone suffering or dying from covid.

Neither have you, despite what you’ll inevitably claim to the contrary. I know over 50 people who’ve contacted Covid. I’ve not witnessed any of them die and any suffering they may have done was in the comfort of their own beds for a few days.

I don’t believe you.