"Compliance" managers speaking rubbish

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Zac_A:

Garbo2018:
2: He thinks that DVSA are doing a crack down on overspeeds at the moment (I know that overspeeding up to 60mph at least is NOT really against the law, and that the police or courts CANNOT prosectute for speeding just on tacho traces alone).

My understanding of it (from DCPC instruction) is that the Police won’t try to prosecute but DVSA would, but I’ve not yet found anything in writing to corroborate that.

They wouldn’t do it.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/795005/dvsa-enforcement-sanctions-policy.pdf

DVSA Enforcement sanction policy, page 17

SPEED LIMITERS
General notes

The Table of RSL Thresholds which can be found in the Categorisation of Defects.

Examiners should bear in mind the defences in subsection 13 of Regulation 36A and subsection 14 of Regulation 36B of the Road Vehicles (Construction and use) Regulations 1986.

Comparison between the speed trace on the tachograph record sheet and the set speed on the speed limiter plate [taking into account Regulation 36B(11A)] may reveal cause for further examination or follow up enquiries. When examining tachograph record sheets there must be clear evidence that the vehicle is exceeding its legal limited speed and care must be taken that the excess speed is not due to over-run or an isolated incident. It may be necessary to check more than one record sheet to show sustained periods of excess speed (sustained period is in excess of 10 minutes, excess speed must be in excess of 10km/h of legal limited speed).

If there is evidence that the speed limiter effectiveness has been impaired deliberately or the defect is of longstanding (since the previous working week) identified from tachograph record sheets, then an ‘S’ marking on the prohibition would be justified

Frequent incidents of excess speeding should be reported to the Traffic Commissioner for possible action against the Operator Licence Statement of Intent.

22

pierrot 14:
Moaster, I very rarely agree or even bother to read his tosh, but on this occasion I have to go with Conor. When torquing any nut, when you arrive at that click, it means the nut is as it should be, at the right setting, retorquing a second time, it will just do the same thing as the first time, when you arrive at the click again it won’t tighten the nut any more as it will be at the right setting already…

But here’s the thing Pierrot, a torque wrench set correctly WILL tighten a warm wheelnut. No ifs or buts it will tighten that nut to its set parameters. The problems start when the steel has cooled and shrank its miniscule amount. That is exactly how we arrive at stretched threads.

23

pierrot 14:

the maoster:

Conor:

Garbo2018:
I know ■■■■ well that if you retorque them too often, you can strech or, worse, snap the studs

Utter bollox. If they’re the correct torque the torque wrench will click as soon as you start to move it. If they’re under-torqued then they’ll tighten to the correct torque. Even if the nut moves a fraction you’d be looking at a lot longer than the service intervals where the wheels are taken off before you’d over tighten it enough to be an issue.

I would have thought that even a pompous buffoon such as yourself Conor would realise that it’s always possible even with a torque wrench to overtighten hot or even warm wheel nuts, you know, the scenario when a day man jumps out of a lorry and a night man immediately jumps in and checks the nuts for tightness!

If only there was some kind of periodical training available to weed out incompetents eh?

Moaster, I very rarely agree or even bother to read his tosh, but on this occasion I have to go with Conor. When torquing any nut, when you arrive at that click, it means the nut is as it should be, at the right setting, retorquing a second time, it will just do the same thing as the first time, when you arrive at the click again it won’t tighten the nut any more as it will be at the right setting already…

So at best, a torque wrench is an approximation.

It uses rotating force to put the fastener assembly in to tension., for to hold wheels in place.
What this tool does not do is account for uncontrolled conditions also acting upon the assembly, frictional losses (I.e. a seized or galling thread) or thermal inconsistency between materials (I.e. the wheel rims being hotter than the studs)

Thread stretch is the absolute measurement we desire in these cases but are very difficult, and probably expensive, so we end up with a “click type” torque wrench.
A device that is near enough.

And if you don’t understand exactly what you are doing with this equipment.

DONT ****ING MESS WITH IT.

24

the maoster:

pierrot 14:
Moaster, I very rarely agree or even bother to read his tosh, but on this occasion I have to go with Conor. When torquing any nut, when you arrive at that click, it means the nut is as it should be, at the right setting, retorquing a second time, it will just do the same thing as the first time, when you arrive at the click again it won’t tighten the nut any more as it will be at the right setting already…

But here’s the thing Pierrot, a torque wrench set correctly WILL tighten a warm wheelnut. No ifs or buts it will tighten that nut to its set parameters. The problems start when the steel has cooled and shrank its miniscule amount. That is exactly how we arrive at stretched threads.

I see where you’re going there but, tyre fitters wouldn’t torque (edited to add) or shouldn’t torque , the nuts whilst they are warm/hot. By the time that they have changed the tyre and replaced the wheel, the nuts would’ve cooled down. Then afterwards , as advised by the fitter, the nuts being retorqued by the depot mechanic or another tyre fitter after however many km’s that they advise, they again, I would think, would be in a cool state .

25

My ex compliance manager told me that the markers at the top of the trailers were irrelevant and not needed :open_mouth:

26

So what’s the difference between a TM and a Compliance Manager? Surely they should be the same thing?

27

Compliance manager short for (I came out of university with a media studies degree)

28

the maoster:

Conor:
I would have thought that even a pompous buffoon such as yourself Conor would realise that it’s always possible even with a torque wrench to overtighten hot or even warm wheel nuts, you know, the scenario when a day man jumps out of a lorry and a night man immediately jumps in and checks the nuts for tightness!

If only there was some kind of periodical training available to weed out incompetents eh?

In this respect I don’t need DCPC training to help me in this as I have CGLI 383 Pt3 Repair and Servicing of Road Vehicles which the Army kindly gave me when I was a REME vehicle mechanic. Slightly more qualified than you to speak about the subject I’m guessing.

Unless the driver has been standing on the brakes all the way back to the yard and you’ve instantly got the torque wrench out as soon as its come to a halt then the likelihood more often than not is that they’d have cooled considerably especially given they’re on the outer face of the wheel getting the most ventilation.

29

I was a lot skinnier then than now :open_mouth: and had to really jump up and down on me piece of pipe to get them nuts to ‘crack’ when tightening them. :wink:

30

Quote. I’m guessing.
Conor.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

31

Conor:

the maoster:
I would have thought that even a pompous buffoon such as yourself Conor would realise that it’s always possible even with a torque wrench to overtighten hot or even warm wheel nuts, you know, the scenario when a day man jumps out of a lorry and a night man immediately jumps in and checks the nuts for tightness!

If only there was some kind of periodical training available to weed out incompetents eh?

In this respect I don’t need DCPC training to help me in this as I have CGLI 383 Pt3 Repair and Servicing of Road Vehicles which the Army kindly gave me when I was a REME vehicle mechanic. Slightly more qualified than you to speak about the subject I’m guessing.

Unless the driver has been standing on the brakes all the way back to the yard and you’ve instantly got the torque wrench out as soon as its come to a halt then the likelihood more often than not is that they’d have cooled considerably especially given they’re on the outer face of the wheel getting the most ventilation.

You knwo what they say in the hgv mechs game about ex army fitters and has been said about them for over 30 years that i know of?

32

Re-torquing of wheel nuts, here is what ATS say
tructyre.co.uk/retorquing.asp
They say “Note: Some vehicle manufacturers do not recognise the 30 minute re-torque procedure. Always refer to specific manufacturer instructions. Re-torquing should also be carried out at every Planned Maintenance Inspection (PMI) check.”

Im not gonna tell anyone what to do, or not do, but heres a few thoughts.
The brakes, hubs, studs, nuts, and wheels are all in close and tight physical contact and the temperatures of them are likely to be similar, but not identical.
The wheel nuts wont be same temp as the discs/drums but I would expect the studs to be at a very similar temp to the wheel which they pass through. (I cant prove this however).
If the wheels and studs are the same material then they will expand due to temperature by the same amount, so there should be no overall effect, surely?

If we have an alloy wheel with steel studs then there will be an effect because these two materials have a significantly different coefficient of thermal expansion. (Steel is about 12, Aluminium about 21-24.)

Seems to me that a steel wheel will have about the same tension on the studs, hot or cold, but an aluminium wheel (assuming the alloy used has same coefficient as pure Al) will actually have more tension, ie be tighter.
Is that amount going to be significant? I would think a few tests would beat a shed load of theory at this stage.

When tightening nuts, the threads do get hotter. (Ever undone a tight rusty nut and noticed its warm when removed?) Waithing 30min will allow temps to equalise.

If a wheel is torqued, left 30min, retorqued, then we can say it is good?
Anyone care to drive for two hours, using brakes a lot to warm it all up, and then retorque it? If all the nuts nip-up than we can say there is an effect here, cant we. Seems a valid experiment to try?
If anyone does this, then crack `em off again and follow retorque procedure when cool to get back to correct of course!

Not having a commercial torque wrench, I`m not volunteering.
Being a lazy git merely reinforces my excuse. :smiley:

33

Most decent outfits specify a third re-torque, usually the following day after some miles of running, and don’t all large companies now have wheelnut pointers of some description.

By the way, an above post mentions distrust of most drivers with a torque wrench, now whilst this is understandable it does fall into the usual trap of forgetting there are still a good number of proper lorry drivers out there who look after kit as if it was their own, and don’t appreciate being lumped in with the cornflake packet licence holders :smiling_imp:

34

Very rare for wheel nuts to move on the routine inspections when checked with the torque wrench, unless they have recently been off for any reason even then you might get one nut that gives a knatts ■■■■ and er thats it!
Which doesnt really prove anything as they may have been overtightened when the wheel was last off.

Then you add in dry nuts/studs/washers into the mix and all the numbers change again.

35

Juddian:
Most decent outfits specify a third re-torque, usually the following day after some miles of running, and don’t all large companies now have wheelnut pointers of some description.

By the way, an above post mentions distrust of most drivers with a torque wrench, now whilst this is understandable it does fall into the usual trap of forgetting there are still a good number of proper lorry drivers out there who look after kit as if it was their own, and don’t appreciate being lumped in with the cornflake packet licence holders :smiling_imp:

You would be amazed how may pro truck drivers dont know their nearside from their offside :grimacing:

36

Trickydick:

Juddian:
Most decent outfits specify a third re-torque, usually the following day after some miles of running, and don’t all large companies now have wheelnut pointers of some description.

By the way, an above post mentions distrust of most drivers with a torque wrench, now whilst this is understandable it does fall into the usual trap of forgetting there are still a good number of proper lorry drivers out there who look after kit as if it was their own, and don’t appreciate being lumped in with the cornflake packet licence holders :smiling_imp:

You would be amazed how may pro truck drivers dont know their nearside from their offside :grimacing:

Any LHD drive trucks at your place? Ever speak to RHD drivers in another country? :wink: Just more layers of confusion to add.
I reckon its easier to stick with left and right..... but yes, youre right, some would have trouble with that too. :smiley:

37

Franglais:

Trickydick:

Juddian:
Most decent outfits specify a third re-torque, usually the following day after some miles of running, and don’t all large companies now have wheelnut pointers of some description.

By the way, an above post mentions distrust of most drivers with a torque wrench, now whilst this is understandable it does fall into the usual trap of forgetting there are still a good number of proper lorry drivers out there who look after kit as if it was their own, and don’t appreciate being lumped in with the cornflake packet licence holders :smiling_imp:

You would be amazed how may pro truck drivers dont know their nearside from their offside :grimacing:

Any LHD drive trucks at your place? Ever speak to RHD drivers in another country? :wink: Just more layers of confusion to add.
I reckon its easier to stick with left and right..... but yes, youre right, some would have trouble with that too. :smiley:

That’s why I have left and right tattooed on my hands. No fooling me.

38

stevieboy308:

Radar19:
Having lots of overspeeds doesn’t look great if they give you a tug, nothing illegal as you say but it might be that one little thing that the grumpy DVSA man needs to ruin your day. No such thing as doing right by the rules now, its all down to who’s tugging you and how he interprets them unfortunately.

It’s written down in their book!

Overspeed for 10 or more minutes by 10km/h or more, as that indicates a limit issue so would need further investigation

That’s a bit of a daft comment isn’t it?

The limit in mph is 60mph the overspeed limit kicks in at 57mph so a 10km/h overspeed would therefore be over the 60mph limit at 62 mph (100kph) - doh!

39

Do the wheel nuts on the near side still tighten in an anti-clockwise direction or are they all ‘lefty loosey’ and ‘righty tighty’ ?

40

remy:
Do the wheel nuts on the near side still tighten in an anti-clockwise direction or are they all ‘lefty loosey’ and ‘righty tighty’ ?

Haven’t seen LH thread wheelbolts for years on wagons, though i wouldn’t like to say about agricultural or industrial off road machines on huge wheels.