I’ve been tasked with explaining to our company board how we comply with relevant legislation/regs to do with driving. Most of it I have in hand and have already introduced some procedures that we weren’t previously doing when we should have been.
It’s only a small company, own account work so no qualified TM as such.
My question (for now) is regarding agency drivers and what we should be doing with their digi cards. The situation at the moment is that when we use an agency driver, by the time their shift finishes the office is empty and locked up. This means it would be difficult to download their card at the end of the shift. I have started asking for a printout to be done at the end of shift and we have a file to keep all the printouts that are then done. Is this sufficient to comply with all the rules and regs or should we be analysing their data somehow like we do with our own drivers?
Even if we could download their card and analyse it, by the time this was done the driver would be long gone and potentially never seen again, but I need to know if that’s what we should be doing.
Is the driver coming back to deserted premises and dropping keys, paperwork etc in a letterbox? Or is there some kind of night shift operating. If the latter, then I suggest you leave your vehicle download machine with the supervisor, as you can use this to download the card too. Make sure agency & driver are aware of this requirement though. And that supervisor knows what to do.
WhiteTruckMan:
Is the driver coming back to deserted premises and dropping keys, paperwork etc in a letterbox? Or is there some kind of night shift operating. If the latter, then I suggest you leave your vehicle download machine with the supervisor, as you can use this to download the card too. Make sure agency & driver are aware of this requirement though. And that supervisor knows what to do.
Yes they are coming back to deserted premises, locked and dropping keys through letterbox. This is why we have deemed it impractical to do a download on return as it would mean setting up a remote downloader, outside, and rely on the driver to remember to do it. Saying that we are relying on them to do a printout too, which some don’t!
The agency have basically washed their hands of tacho downloads (they used to do it), but I’m wondering if it is still their responsibility to provide, or compel the driver to provide, any required data.
From a limpers Pov
First thing before the driver is given the keys/paperwork on day 1, you should ask them for their license, dcpc card, and digi card. You should check the that they are valid, and the driver is suitably qualified to be driving the truck. Then you should photocopy them (both sides) & download the digi card to ensure that they have had sufficient rest before taking the truck out. Once you have a remote location for them to download their card, it shouldn’t be a problem for them to download the card at the end off the day, or week IF they are working for you all week. Personally I’d suggest doing it daily so I that you can make sure that they have had sufficient daily rest, and they’re not taking the Micky when it comes to timekeeping. All of this should cover your arris, and if you wanted to be pedantic if the driver fails to download their card by their the end of their last shift of that week I’d insist that until they do you’ll withhold payment to the agency for that worker. This should ensure that your compliance with VOSA is ok and no missing mileage is recorded
I am just wondering how your employer’s or public liability insurance company view the presence of those who are essentially visitors to your unattended site at night. Are these agency drivers expected to do anything other than park the vehicle? eg change trailers?
peirre:
if the driver fails to download their card by their the end of their last shift of that week I’d insist that until they do you’ll withhold payment to the agency for that worker. This should ensure that your compliance with VOSA is ok and no missing mileage is recorded
Sounds like a plan. Tell the agency that the job requires record keeping, which it obviously does, and if not completed fully: no money.
As an operator it is your responsibility to keep records.
Failing to keep records of drivers hours could result in fines and loss of your O-Licence. The operator is ultimately responsible for ensuring that the person in the driving seat is qualified and legal.
“Being awkward to administer”, or whatever, isn`t going to cut much ice with the authorities.
Should be simple enough to stick a glorified lockable hut somewhere with all necessary paperwork, eg declaration forms etc, a key safe installed and a remote download machine beside it.
Also sounds like you need the services of a more switched on driver oriented (driver only?) agency, who are more likely to play ball with you by taking all legalities seriously and supplying named trusted drivers, you might pay slightly more for a bespoke agency but you might find the staff quality reflects the higher price, as it is you are getting almost nothing from the present agency as they pocket the dosh for doing sod all other than phoning some anonymous bod and telling him where to be at such and such a time.
The agency my lot use supply drivers that are IMHO a cut above, and their rates of pay when on our work reflect this, in return the drivers generally do their level best to stay on our work even if they don’t actually want to apply for any full time positions that might be coming up.
Another limper here. Being expected to download my card at the end of the shift is nothing out of the ordinary but you have to give us the facilities to do it. At Howdens where I am they have a computer in a driver’s lobby which is always unlocked so when we get back on a Saturday morning when everyone has gone home and the office is all locked up we can still download the card. It only needs a cheap old Dell desktop and monitor, you could buy the computer they use on Ebay for under £100 including the monitor and all it has to do is have Tachomaster or whatever you use running on it and a card reader hooked up (card reader is an Omnikey 0301/2 which are dirt cheap to buy when you don’t buy from Tachomaster)
It is the driver’s responsibility to present their card for downloading, it is the VEHICLE OPERATOR’S responsibility to ensure that it can be downloaded and if the company don’t do that then as long as the driver has made his card available he’s in the clear if it doesn’t get downloaded. It is not the agency’s responsibility as they’re not the operator of the vehicle or the company who hold the operator’s licence and it was NEVER the agency’s responsibility and I doubt VOSA would have accepted the information from the agency if they came knocking on your door. If the tachograph information is not available it will be your company who bear the brunt of any enforcement action, the driver won’t because they will quite rightly say that when they got back it was locked up and everyone had gone home so they couldn’t. All the information though is held in the lorry tachograph so when you do a download of the vehicle tachograph it is on there.
What Pierre says won’t wash if you’re not providing the facilities for the driver to be able to download the card and whilst you can withhold payment two things will happen:
You’ll not get another driver from the agency and are likely to be sued as you will be in breach of the contract you’ve already signed and,
Word will spread around local agencies you don’t pay so you won’t get drivers from them either.
Im on agency and have come back to empty yards a few times with various companies.
Most just have a key cabinet left unlocked and a letterbox for the keys to get posted in.
A mobile card downloader is left in the key cabinet, you download your card then put the card reader back in the cupboard and close it… you then post the keys and leave.
Firm I drive for has the place ring-fenced for downloads, as in once the vehicle enters the perimeter, downloads tacho data automatically. It does actually work with no issues.
On the other hand, if any firm refused to pay me because I was unable, rather than unwilling to download my card then that would be an entirely different matter.
Do we need to be downloading the card, or is a printout sufficient?
Do we need to be analysing the data from the shift for infringements and if so what do we do if there is any? It’s easy enough with our drivers because they come in every day, but we might not see that agency driver again.
Having done a bit of reading I will be suggesting the licence photocopy and download before the shift as an arse covering exercise. However I will need to show a legal need for downloading rather than a printout ,to convince the co to cough up for a remote downloader.
You’ll be downloading the VU anyway so you must have facilities for downloading the drivers card. As for how frequent you need to do it depends on what level of compliance is required for the O license. I’d say if a driver is new to your company I’d be inclined to download the card daily so you can closely monitor them for infringements, if they then become a regular and they show no tendancy for infringing the rules then they could be trusted to download the card less frequently.
In the past I’ve been on 1 site where 2 different contracts had different compliance requirements, 1 the cards where checked daily, the other contract the cards where done weekly.
However purely as a ■■■ covering, I’d still be looking at them presenting their cards weekly for photocopy and for them to sign off a disclaimer stating that they have had sufficient weekly rest etc
We have facilities to download cards, but the office is closed when the agency drivers get back. The agency drivers are used only a few times a week and we have no idea who is going to turn up for a particular shift. I will be doing licence copies for each new face we see from now on, but the questions still remain; is a printout at the end of shift sufficient for the legalities and do we need to be analysing the agency drivers’ driving data?
Do we need to be downloading the card, or is a printout sufficient?
Do we need to be analysing the data from the shift for infringements and if so what do we do if there is any? It’s easy enough with our drivers because they come in every day, but we might not see that agency driver again.
Having done a bit of reading I will be suggesting the licence photocopy and download before the shift as an arse covering exercise. However I will need to show a legal need for downloading rather than a printout ,to convince the co to cough up for a remote downloader.
As I understand it the operator needs to check and show that their drivers are complying with hours regs.
Doesnt matter if the drivers are employed at arms length through an agency or not, if they are in your vehicle they are your driver, and you need to check on them.
If you analyse downloads from your own drivers and “store but ignore” printouts from agency how will that look to any DVSA official?
Saying that you ignore any problems from agency drivers, because you may not see them again, is tantamount to saying you have no effective control over some of your drivers isnt it? At least that is how DVSA may see it. If the DVSA see the company be cant even be arsed to even download cards from some of drivers how will they view that company, come O-licence renewal time?
cupidstunt:
We have facilities to download cards, but the office is closed when the agency drivers get back. The agency drivers are used only a few times a week and we have no idea who is going to turn up for a particular shift. I will be doing licence copies for each new face we see from now on, but the questions still remain; is a printout at the end of shift sufficient for the legalities and do we need to be analysing the agency drivers’ driving data?
The law doesn’t require you to engage drivers in such a fashion that you don’t know who they are or whether you’ll see them again.
If you choose to operate in that fashion, then the obligation is still on you to put in place the other pieces of the jigsaw that allow you to properly monitor their hours and comply with your own obligations.
The driver is obligated to make their card available to you for download, so if they forget to comply with mechanisms that are reasonably in place (like an unmanned card reader for use at the end of a shift) then that’s their problem, not yours. But it’s your problem to provide the reader in the first place.
And if you don’t see them again, then you don’t need to take any steps regarding their non-compliance, because they are gone for good.
But obviously, if many of your drivers are seen to be non-compliant (not just an occasional omission or an isolated individual who doesn’t return), that will reflect on whether you are taking adequate steps as an operator to comply with the rules.
And it’s up to you to know your drivers habits and characters. If you have a non-compliant individual who returns frequently, then it’s your problem to track them and be seen to be doing something about it.
Which returns to the original point, that you aren’t obligated to operate in a fashion where you don’t know which drivers are coming or going.
cupidstunt:
Do we need to be analysing the data from the shift for infringements
Yes.
and if so what do we do if there is any? It’s easy enough with our drivers because they come in every day, but we might not see that agency driver again.
Where I’m at the client forwards the paperwork to the agency who send it to the driver to sign and return.
Having done a bit of reading I will be suggesting the licence photocopy and download before the shift as an arse covering exercise. However I will need to show a legal need for downloading rather than a printout ,to convince the co to cough up for a remote downloader.
It isn’t your job to do any of this, it is your Transport Manager’s, the person who holds the CPC that is supporting your company’s O licence and knows the answers and should know the relevant legislation so you might want to point out that all this they’re asking isn’t actually your job to deal with but the TM’s and wash your hands of it because if you get it wrong it’ll be your job at risk. Whilst you’re doing that you might want to point out about how negatively viewed using third party TMs are by the Traffic Commissioner, especially if they don’t spend some time at the company each week ensuring compliance. When they ask you again say “sorry, not qualified so can you please ask the transport manager?”
cupidstunt:
Do we need to be analysing the data from the shift for infringements
Yes.
and if so what do we do if there is any? It’s easy enough with our drivers because they come in every day, but we might not see that agency driver again.
Where I’m at the client forwards the paperwork to the agency who send it to the driver to sign and return.
Having done a bit of reading I will be suggesting the licence photocopy and download before the shift as an arse covering exercise. However I will need to show a legal need for downloading rather than a printout ,to convince the co to cough up for a remote downloader.
It isn’t your job to do any of this, it is your Transport Manager’s, the person who holds the CPC that is supporting your company’s O licence and knows the answers and should know the relevant legislation so you might want to point out that all this they’re asking isn’t actually your job to deal with but the TM’s and wash your hands of it because if you get it wrong it’ll be your job at risk. Whilst you’re doing that you might want to point out about how negatively viewed using third party TMs are by the Traffic Commissioner, especially if they don’t spend some time at the company each week ensuring compliance. When they ask you again say “sorry, not qualified so can you please ask the transport manager?”
You`re making a fair point, except
cupidstunt:
It’s only a small company, own account work so no qualified TM as such.
About time to employ a qualified TM, we might agree.
Franglais beat me to it. Conor makes a good point, however at the moment we don’t need a qaulified TM as we only transport our own good. Saying this, I agree there is definately a case for a qualified TM to be employed, indeed it would be something I would consider doing. At the moment though the Operations manager is in control of the transport and he inherited a system that was, in my opinion, not seen as a big priority. Hence why we are trying to sort things out now.
There seems to be a consensus that analysis of the agency drivers is needed. So could someone point me in the direction of something official that states this. Not that I disagree, but it will be easier to put the case forward if there’s something definate in writing to show them.
“A restricted licence only allows you to carry
your own goods on your own account within
Great Britain and the EU. You do not have
to satisfy the requirement of professional
competence to get a restricted licence and
the rates of financial standing may be less.
However, you should obey the same rules as
for a standard licence”
“Ability to obey all the rules
You will need to show a traffic commissioner
that you and – for standard licences – your
transport manager(s) - have adequate systems
in place to make sure you and your staff are
able to obey all the rules, particularly covering:
u speed limits;
u driver obligations;
u driver licensing/driver CPC;
u drivers’ hours rules and the Working
Time Directive;
u taxation and insurance of vehicles; and
u authorised weights.
This means having management structures,
monitoring and reporting systems in place that
you can use to show a traffic commissioner
the extent to which there has been and will
be compliance”
EDIT to add: If they are in your vehicle, they are your driver. Doesn`t matter if you pay them direct, or through an agency.