Companies running old junk

Radar19:
My first experience in a manual was a 26t loaded with eggs going into London. Standard manuals now are no problem, I’d be up a certain creek without said paddle if I had to drive a crash box.

There is no mystery to a non synchro gearbox. If somebody showed you how, you would understand how to change smoothly in ten minutes. Half an hour of practise and you would be OK with it. After a day you would realise that a Fuller really is a wonderful thing.

In fact, you would probably be able to operate a non-synchro gearbox properly about as quickly as Carryfast would be able to operate an iShift correctly.

Just think of it as being shown how to operate any bit of kit you aren’t familiar with. There really is nothing quite like working a loaded truck up and down a non-synchro box though, it is a strangely tactile, rewarding thing to do. Grab a go if you get the chance.

I really don’t know what the bloody EU has to do with trucks being specced with Fuller gearboxes though, can anyone help me here? The sixteen speed Volvo was as delightfuly light and precise to change as the Fuller, but with syncromesh by the way.

Harry Monk:

Numbum:
I stand to be corrected but I think true crash boxes went out of favour in the early fifties. I own a couple of 1940,s Bristol buses with crash boxes and five pot Gardners and the old saying was that you could light a ■■■ while waiting for an upward change. By the early 50,s Bristol were using constant mesh boxes where the main cogs are always engaged. You still had to match the revs but they would not try to break your wrist like a crash box.

The Eaton Fuller was a crash box and they were still being fitted to ERFs and Seddon Atkinsons in the 1980s.

It depends on the definition of crash = sliding mesh,not constant mesh.The former being the correct definition of crash as I’ve always heard it.

youtube.com/watch?v=iSZ16avHQ48

youtube.com/watch?v=BaVoOH06iR0

Until recently, a new driver on Smiths had to start with a crash 'box as they bought them as far as 1999 (V reg). It was funny when we were plagued with “experienced” agency drivers that defected some of the best Foden S106 and 108s the firm ever ran because “the gearbox was knackered.”
My uncle was asked for his opinion on the clutch on one after a limper made a complaint and he said “can’t help you, I don’t use it.” :laughing:

We have a couple of old DAF’s still. This was my favourite warning: Question is, is the level low or not?

The warning noise when it says STOP gets annoying as its louder then the radio. :sunglasses:

mrginge:
We have a couple of old DAF’s still. This was my favourite warning: Question is, is the level low or not?

The warning noise when it says STOP gets annoying as its louder then the radio. :sunglasses:

I saw on Smiths website that they have a vacancy for a vehicle dismantler. Is that polite speak for an agency driver not used to driving old trucks up Birdlip or Chalford hills? :wink:

Kerragy:

Radar19:
My first experience in a manual was a 26t loaded with eggs going into London. Standard manuals now are no problem, I’d be up a certain creek without said paddle if I had to drive a crash box.

There is no mystery to a non synchro gearbox. If somebody showed you how, you would understand how to change smoothly in ten minutes. Half an hour of practise and you would be OK with it. After a day you would realise that a Fuller really is a wonderful thing.

In fact, you would probably be able to operate a non-synchro gearbox properly about as quickly as Carryfast would be able to operate an iShift correctly.

Just think of it as being shown how to operate any bit of kit you aren’t familiar with. There really is nothing quite like working a loaded truck up and down a non-synchro box though, it is a strangely tactile, rewarding thing to do. Grab a go if you get the chance.

I really don’t know what the bloody EU has to do with trucks being specced with Fuller gearboxes though, can anyone help me here? The sixteen speed Volvo was as delightfuly light and precise to change as the Fuller, but with syncromesh by the way.

I was always led to believe that the trouble was that it was the noise that Fuller boxes made in London , others may have other idea`s .

mrginge:
We have a couple of old DAF’s still. This was my favourite warning: Question is, is the level low or not?

The warning noise when it says STOP gets annoying as its louder then the radio. :sunglasses:

With an outside temp of 47.0c .it will run a tadge hot.

shugg:

Kerragy:

Radar19:
My first experience in a manual was a 26t loaded with eggs going into London. Standard manuals now are no problem, I’d be up a certain creek without said paddle if I had to drive a crash box.

There is no mystery to a non synchro gearbox. If somebody showed you how, you would understand how to change smoothly in ten minutes. Half an hour of practise and you would be OK with it. After a day you would realise that a Fuller really is a wonderful thing.

In fact, you would probably be able to operate a non-synchro gearbox properly about as quickly as Carryfast would be able to operate an iShift correctly.

Just think of it as being shown how to operate any bit of kit you aren’t familiar with. There really is nothing quite like working a loaded truck up and down a non-synchro box though, it is a strangely tactile, rewarding thing to do. Grab a go if you get the chance.

I really don’t know what the bloody EU has to do with trucks being specced with Fuller gearboxes though, can anyone help me here? The sixteen speed Volvo was as delightfuly light and precise to change as the Fuller, but with syncromesh by the way.

I was always led to believe that the trouble was that it was the noise that Fuller boxes made in London , others may have other idea`s .

That will be the Eaton twin splitter ,iam taking out my Eaton 16 speed and replacing with th 12 speed Eaton ts when it’s been done up .

shugg:

Kerragy:
I was always led to believe that the trouble was that it was the noise that Fuller boxes made in London , others may have other idea`s .

The general consensus is that Fullers were taken out in Europe by EU legislation.Some say on the grounds of noise.The question then being how can the the same supposed constant mesh gear train be any quieter in the EU approved I shift :confused: and I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Fuller box that was any louder than the engine it was attached to.

IndigoJo:
I had what I thought was a decent agency booking for three days last week: class 1, a few locals in the morning then a run out to Gloucester in the afternoon to swap an empty trailer for a full one (of books, it turned out) and come back. It was in Ashford, near Heathrow. When I got there I saw a 13-plate DAF at the front and thought “oh, is that what I’m driving to Gloucester”. No such luck.

It turns out that they have two X-reg DAF 95XF’s which they use on the out-of-town runs because they reserve the new-ish ones for jobs that go into the LEZ, and they’re both rustbuckets which are falling apart. Both have manual gearboxes, and I don’t mind that (I did some training on a manual artic, but this was my first on a 40-tonner) as long as it’s not a crash box, but they were as stiff as hell and frequently failed to go into gear especially in low range. The first day they gave me the one that doesn’t normally go to Gloucester, and it didn’t couple properly (you have to get out and knock the fifth wheel handle to get the jaws to close). The excuse: “it’s 14 years old, you can’t expect it to work like a brand new truck!”.

Anyway, I got it out to Gloucester, swapped over with the full trailer, then started back and about a quarter of the way up Birdlip Hill it overheated, and it put a “STOP” warning up on the dashboard, so I pulled over and put my hazards on (this was about 6:30pm last Wednesday). I called the boss; when he didn’t pick up I called my agency who got someone to give me a ring; they gave me the number of their fitter who handed me over to a recovery company. I was sat there for 90 minutes and by then the engine had cooled down a bit. The recovery guy said “nurse it up, slowly”. So that’s what I did, and we made it up there. He couldn’t tell me what exactly was wrong except “it’s old”.

Next day, they gave me its “sister” truck “Michelle” and I took it out and I could hear rattling and rubbing noises coming from underneath. I pull over and tell them I don’t think it’s safe to take all the way to Gloucester so they tell me to come back, and they give me a choice of that one or the one that broke down. I chose the latter as at least it was all stuck together properly. On the way back I obviously avoided Birdlip so I took the A419 through Stroud instead. I didn’t know that there was another huge hill on the way out of Stroud and this one is a windy two-lane, not a sweeping three-lane. I get to the top and the heat gauge is just below the “stop” zone, so luckily there’s that lay-by at the top and I pull in there for a cool-off (not 90 mins this time though).

Then yesterday, they gave me Michelle again and assure me they’ve had it looked over by a fitter and it’s safe. Another of their drivers tell me that the noises are because the rubbers on the cab mounts are missing. He also asked me if I’d defected the steering problems on the other truck, and I said “no, I ran out of space after I mentioned the gearbox and brake problems” (I’d had a hint of them but only once and not enough to make a detailed defect, unlike the other two issues) but he’d had to stop driving that one because it was so dangerous. Thing is the bosses swear by them; they say they’ve had them from new and they can supposedly pull any load without a fuss. Anything the driver complains about, the excuse is “it’s an old truck, mate!”.

Generally around London we’re pretty spoiled for decent trucks because of the LEZ. I do know of a few operators around Staines area who have some older trucks that they reserve for non-London jobs – I had the agency ask me several times to drive an ERF for a marquee company and I refused as I don’t know what to do with a crash box as I’ve never seen one (they’ve now moved out of area). This is the first time I’ve seen a company use ancient tractors to do a long run on a regular basis, and they weren’t fine examples but battered old junk that should have been scrapped years ago. (The newer trucks they run aren’t in particularly good nick either.)

Anyway, the company was recently taken over by Geodis so perhaps they’ll invest in some new kit fairly soon, although their other depot near Heathrow uses a contractor (which has a fleet of smart MANs). But I was pretty staggered to see anything this old used near London and especially something in such poor condition. I had a good mind to walk out, but just settled for never accepting a job at this place ever again.

As Juddian said a few pages back, as an agency driver use it to your advantage…more hours more pay, pull in every few miles to let it cool down, or roast the ■■■■ thing, 4 hours wait for recovery, tow in and wait for a lift home…all hours spent ‘working’ plus it takes another heap of ■■■■ off the road, win win.

As for going back to old style boxes?
Wtf for?..Not a chance, I prefer the ■■■■ easy auto box any day.
I have driven ancient David Brown boxes, enigmatic Spicers, the old favourite Eaton twin splitter, and could play a tune on an Eaton Fuller 13 speed without using a clutch other than setting off…Would I go back to them?
Would I ■■■■.

Harry Monk:

Numbum:
I stand to be corrected but I think true crash boxes went out of favour in the early fifties. I own a couple of 1940,s Bristol buses with crash boxes and five pot Gardners and the old saying was that you could light a ■■■ while waiting for an upward change. By the early 50,s Bristol were using constant mesh boxes where the main cogs are always engaged. You still had to match the revs but they would not try to break your wrist like a crash box.

The Eaton Fuller was a crash box and they were still being fitted to ERFs and Seddon Atkinsons in the 1980s.

I’m reeeeely sorry Harry, but cf is right, they’re constant mesh.

I’m one of the old ■■■■■ that started before you had to take a separate hgv test and I went straight in to 12 speed Fodens. I had a bloke take me over to one and he sat me in the seat and told me how to get it going and away we went. Started next day and never looked back. I used to love getting in different motors and getting used to the gearboxes and everything else they had to offer. Sadly, never got a twin split, but did get on a Scammell 8 legger with a gate change… now they were f*****g difficult at first. I worked for so many firms as a youngster, I can’t remember half of 'em. :unamused:

I think the OP brings up some scary points, forget all about gearboxes for a moment and let’s go back to the Birdlip incident. Now that’s a decent hill, it’ll give a lorry a good work out and the problems encountered definitely prove that.

Now here’s my point, I was 21 once, but I knew enough about engines and lorries that trying to go flat to the boards up Birdlip would have the warning buzzer going off long before the top. An older lorry will have nowhere near the cooling capabilities of a new one, years of build up in the water jacket and radiator, a sluggish water pump and thermostats, years of insect build up restricting airflow through the radiator etc. All will have a detrimental effect on cooling that engine and foot to the boards all the way up will produce a lot of heat, even more so on an older engine as years of soot build up in the exhaust system will increase back pressure and raise exhaust temperature. I knew all this as it was passed down to me while I rode in the lorry with my Dad, he learned it from his Dad, now kids don’t go out in the lorry any more and important stuff like this is being lost forever.

Gearboxes are the same, at first I shake my head in dismay when somebody here gets all panicked about range changes and splitters, four over four, three over three etc. However I can imagine that it is a bit daunting when you’ve never seen one in operation before, which you would have if you had been out with the old man as a kid.

The first lorries I drove were new in the 1970s, half of them never had a shift pattern on the gear stick and there were all kinds of weird and wonderful gearboxes about in those days, some were back to front, some had an illogical shift pattern, some had range change, some splitters and some both, some were synchro, some were constant mesh, some had switches, some had collars that lifted, some collars that rotated, some were knock across, but I just got on with it, the first couple of miles were a challenge and I always stayed in one gear until I was out of earshot of the yard and then crunched away until I got the hang of it.

That’s how we all did it back in those days, lots of us had grown up in lorries which helped, but another thing we had going was camaraderie, we used to talk to each other, share routes and where the good cafes were, how to load certain freight and secure it, all this sitting in the cab playing on phones and gizmos has led us to where we are today.

So the moral of this story is don’t be afraid to ask someone and don’t be afraid to just get out there and get on with it, over thinking things is a recipe for disaster, it’s only a lorry, nothing to be scared of.

Sent from my SM-T805W using Tapatalk

Carryfast:

shugg:
I was always led to believe that the trouble was that it was the noise that Fuller boxes made in London , others may have other idea`s .

The general consensus is that Fullers were taken out in Europe by EU legislation.Some say on the grounds of noise.The question then being how can the the same supposed constant mesh gear train be any quieter in the EU approved I shift :confused: and I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Fuller box that was any louder than the engine it was attached to.

You seem to have mixed up the source of your quote Old Boy, I have reattributed it correctly.

I don’t believe there is any consensus that legislation killed off Fullers in Europe (Eaton Twin Splitter excepted). Although they were good, time passed them by. My first car had no syncro on first, so I had no option but to learn how to double de-clutch. Just a few years later even the old bangers were all syncromesh, so it became an outdated skill that nobody needed to learn any longer. When I got in my first truck and discovered a nine speed non syncro Fuller gearbox, I knew the hard bit, how to change down. Changing up was easy, so off I went. I’d already done a lot of my tune playing in my Mini. A lot of people jumped straight into trucks with ZFs or a Swede and never needed to learn. Syncromesh gearboxes on the whole were more baulky and a little slower than a Fuller but anyone could drive them without aditional training so obviously they were what got specced.

Roll forward to now and automated manuals have superceded traditional manuals, and like robroy said, why would you want to go back? They make the job easier. Basically as good as it was in it’s day, there are better ways of achieving the same goal now. The time of the manual change gearbox, never mind the manual change non syncro gearbox, has come and gone.

The mind boggles on what some people class as junk,just because its not automatic and they have to move a gear stick in line with the engine revs
Next thing will be refusing to take motor out because the radio is not working or no sockets to plug gadgets like Satnav kettle or TV

Sorry no kettle no driver [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

lolipop:
Next thing will be refusing to take motor out because the radio is not working or no sockets to plug gadgets like Satnav kettle or TV

Mate, I know you are being flippant here, but it DOES happen, especially on the Sat Nav side of things. :unamused:

Nothing learns you driving like a mature truck.
You become so much more inventive, learn to respect the engine, gearbox, and steering.

It’s easy for a car driver to become a truck driver, as everything is done for them, no thinking about the right gear to keep the engine cool, no thinking about what gear to pull away.
Not even thinking what gear to brake on the engine and keep your brakes cool.
Over the years, the job is dumbed down a lot, most newer drivers cannot think for theirselves.
Many come unstuck when the smallest issues happen, overheated motors etc.

While I believe in new truck and all the new fangeled comforts with them,it takes the driver out of truckdriver, you become more and more a steering wheel attendant, a labourer to load and unload it, pointing it in the right direction and the truck and the office do the thinking.

Two things a guilty for this, first the mobile phones, second no training and working your way up the ranks as there used to be.

When I started there where no mobile phones, and sometimes you phoned twice a week the office, when you where empty, and when you where loaded, sometimes more if the needed to book a ferry or so.
That was it, you was on your own, you and the truck, you learn to respect that truck, as it was the only way to get you checked, and checked it again, and not some half wash walk around check, you knew exectly how much oil there was in the engine, gearbox etc.
You checked the coolant levels ( and not with some sensor, with you own hands and eyes)
You knew you had only so much horses under that bonnet, and threaded carefully.
We did alright with 260 horses around Europe at 40 ton.
You thought it was all a bit much when the 360 F12 came out, nobody needed that much power, and see where we are now.
But they are not any quicker as we did it.

But when you started, you always got the oldest truck, and you had to work your way up, until you deserved a newer one.
Not like now, when a driver green as grass demands the newest truck with a zillion horse power.
But they trained you, and you where not afraid to ask, because somebody would help you.
That is what is missing, the weeks as a trainee, with this older experienced driver, who learned you the ropes, who learned you to double declutch with a stick tapping on the metal dashboard (and on your fingers crushed the box)
Who gave you important lessons in life, and how to stay alive, how to keep warm, and how to fix a truck.
It helped me a lot, I drove nearly any gearbox you can think of, Daf 2000 with a crash box, Hanomag with a crash box and a 2 speed differential, 16 speed ZF knock through box, Scania 80 super 4 over 4, Daf with 2 gear sticks and 3 locking difs (how many handles was that?) and of course I loved my DAF 2800 with Fuller box (as close to a clutch less automatic as you could get that time) all the way to Munich without using the clutch other than to start and stop.

So if you get the change to drive a older truck, enjoy it, learn from it, as it won’t come back ever, even IF Brexit ever happen.

By the way, the I-shift is an unsynchronised gearbox, if you listen when it change down, you can hear the engine blipping, the same as we use to do on the Fuller gearbox.

And No Carryfast the plastic cabins of the ERF and FODENS, don’t come back, neither does the Fuller or Eaton boxes, Rockwell differentials, rope and sheeting.
Nothing to do with the EU, Hitler or the Americans, but all to do moving forward and modernisation.
On the same tone, as we don’t go back to coal fires, gas lamps, water from the pump and toilets outside, even Brexit cannot fix that.
Try to move forward with you time, and no it was not all better in the old times, it was bloody hard, cleaning the little glass diesel filter out on a DAF in the frozen Gail force wind, because there was no winter diesel, cold cabs, split wheel rims, frozen fingers in the winter when sheeting a truck.
It,s much better now, and we should be grateful

Carryfast:
On that note hopefully if we get Brexit we’ll at least be able to spec them again here.Like the rest of the English speaking world.

That’s some serious wishful thinking!

caledoniandream:
Nothing learns you driving like a mature truck.
You become so much more inventive, learn to respect the engine, gearbox, and steering.

It’s easy for a car driver to become a truck driver, as everything is done for them, no thinking about the right gear to keep the engine cool, no thinking about what gear to pull away.
Not even thinking what gear to brake on the engine and keep your brakes cool.
Over the years, the job is dumbed down a lot, most newer drivers cannot think for theirselves.
Many come unstuck when the smallest issues happen, overheated motors etc.

While I believe in new truck and all the new fangeled comforts with them,it takes the driver out of truckdriver, you become more and more a steering wheel attendant, a labourer to load and unload it, pointing it in the right direction and the truck and the office do the thinking.

Two things a guilty for this, first the mobile phones, second no training and working your way up the ranks as there used to be.

When I started there where no mobile phones, and sometimes you phoned twice a week the office, when you where empty, and when you where loaded, sometimes more if the needed to book a ferry or so.
That was it, you was on your own, you and the truck, you learn to respect that truck, as it was the only way to get you checked, and checked it again, and not some half wash walk around check, you knew exectly how much oil there was in the engine, gearbox etc.
You checked the coolant levels ( and not with some sensor, with you own hands and eyes)
You knew you had only so much horses under that bonnet, and threaded carefully.
We did alright with 260 horses around Europe at 40 ton.
You thought it was all a bit much when the 360 F12 came out, nobody needed that much power, and see where we are now.
But they are not any quicker as we did it.

But when you started, you always got the oldest truck, and you had to work your way up, until you deserved a newer one.
Not like now, when a driver green as grass demands the newest truck with a zillion horse power.
But they trained you, and you where not afraid to ask, because somebody would help you.
That is what is missing, the weeks as a trainee, with this older experienced driver, who learned you the ropes, who learned you to double declutch with a stick tapping on the metal dashboard (and on your fingers crushed the box)
Who gave you important lessons in life, and how to stay alive, how to keep warm, and how to fix a truck.
It helped me a lot, I drove nearly any gearbox you can think of, Daf 2000 with a crash box, Hanomag with a crash box and a 2 speed differential, 16 speed ZF knock through box, Scania 80 super 4 over 4, Daf with 2 gear sticks and 3 locking difs (how many handles was that?) and of course I loved my DAF 2800 with Fuller box (as close to a clutch less automatic as you could get that time) all the way to Munich without using the clutch other than to start and stop.

So if you get the change to drive a older truck, enjoy it, learn from it, as it won’t come back ever, even IF Brexit ever happen.

By the way, the I-shift is an unsynchronised gearbox, if you listen when it change down, you can hear the engine blipping, the same as we use to do on the Fuller gearbox.

And No Carryfast the plastic cabins of the ERF and FODENS, don’t come back, neither does the Fuller or Eaton boxes, Rockwell differentials, rope and sheeting.
Nothing to do with the EU, Hitler or the Americans, but all to do moving forward and modernisation.
On the same tone, as we don’t go back to coal fires, gas lamps, water from the pump and toilets outside, even Brexit cannot fix that.
Try to move forward with you time, and no it was not all better in the old times, it was bloody hard, cleaning the little glass diesel filter out on a DAF in the frozen Gail force wind, because there was no winter diesel, cold cabs, split wheel rims, frozen fingers in the winter when sheeting a truck.
It,s much better now, and we should be grateful

That’s possibly one of the most sensible well balanced posts about old vs new that’s ever appeared on this forum.