Has there been a change to the ADR regs regarding the transportation of class 1 ( explosives ) this year ? The reason I ask is that I move such freight ,( and I dont mean sparklers and flares ) on occasions. Today in the mess a notice has been put up by the saftey man that double manning and plates are no longer required regardless of the neq carried, surely this cant be right.
Think the secretary of state can allow working outside regulations for the mod in special circumstances but I have no idea how that works.
Ones things for sure I would find out first hand about any changes before I turned a whell but if they don`t supply you with the tools its them that will be in court if they are wrong.
Wait for Dave but I think generally any amendments are made every 2 years
“Today in the mess a notice has been put up by the saftey man ,”
old habits, read bothy / drivers room instead of mess, well it is a mess…
teatime:
Has there been a change to the ADR regs regarding the transportation of class 1 ( explosives ) this year ? The reason I ask is that I move such freight ,( and I dont mean sparklers and flares ) on occasions. Today in the mess a notice has been put up by the saftey man that double manning and plates are no longer required regardless of the neq carried, surely this cant be right.
Hi teatime, I’m afraid that both you and the safety man are only partly correct…
It was UK Regs (not ADR 
) that an attendant was required, but this requirement ended at midnight on 30/06/09.
On 01/07/09, the new UK Regs (CDG 2009) came into force, and there’s no mention of an attendant for the carriage of explosives in the UK, just like ADR.
The safety man might be interested to read this:
CDG 2009 Reg.5
5. No person is to carry dangerous goods, or cause or permit dangerous goods to be carried, where that carriage is prohibited by ADR or RID, including where that carriage does not comply with any applicable requirement of ADR or RID.
Could you please ask the safety man where he got this idea: “plates are no longer required regardless of the neq carried” 
Wheel Nut:
Wait for Dave but I think generally any amendments are made every 2 years
Hi Malc, Spot-on mate. 
ADR is very sensible in that it is completely binned and a new set of Regs published every two years (on odd-numbered years,) rather than the old British way of twiddling with our Regs and and issuing amendments piecemeal whenever they felt like it. 
Part of teatime’s OP question related to an extra requirement that was only in UK Regs for the carriage of explosives, but that wasn’t in ADR though.
dieseldave:
Wheel Nut:
Wait for Dave but I think generally any amendments are made every 2 yearsHi Malc, Spot-on mate.
ADR is very sensible in that it is completely binned and a new set of Regs published every two years (on odd-numbered years,) rather than the old British way of twiddling with our Regs and and issuing amendments piecemeal whenever they felt like it.Part of teatime’s OP question related to an extra requirement that was only in UK Regs for the carriage of explosives, but that wasn’t in ADR though.
That is why I shut me gob and waited for you 
I knew you would know if they had amended the amended amendments.
Wheel Nut:
That is why I shut me gob and waited for you
Hi Malc, the UK has binned almost all of the itty-bitty stuff, so we now have just one very thin book of Regs for UK use, plus the EAC List for our tanker markings and another thin book of approved derogations.
They excelled themselves this time though, cos they came into force and were available for use on the same day.
We’ve stopped double-manning, but we are still putting plates up over certain NEQs. About half our work is explosives; presume we are in the same line of work.
Thanks dieseldave ! that clears that up. I printed your reply out to put on the board only to find that someone else in our company has already done so,( I wonder who it is ) with a few choice comments directed to saftey man ( who is now on holiday ) added. At least the drivers are clear on that .
albion, oil & gas industry, do you find the plates are like a magnet to vosa ? who get all moist… I always show the card and make “the” call
albion:
We’ve stopped double-manning, but we are still putting plates up over certain NEQs. About half our work is explosives; presume we are in the same line of work.
Hi albion, We’re kind of in the same line of work… I got 25ish years in as an LGV C+E driver, but since 2003 I’m a freelance ADR instructor and DGSA.
dieseldave:
teatime:
Has there been a change to the ADR regs regarding the transportation of class 1 ( explosives ) this year ? The reason I ask is that I move such freight ,( and I dont mean sparklers and flares ) on occasions. Today in the mess a notice has been put up by the saftey man that double manning and plates are no longer required regardless of the neq carried, surely this cant be right.Hi teatime, I’m afraid that both you and the safety man are only partly correct…
It was UK Regs (not ADR
On 01/07/09, the new UK Regs (CDG 2009) came into force, and there’s no mention of an attendant for the carriage of explosives in the UK, just like ADR.The safety man might be interested to read this:
CDG 2009 Reg.5
5. No person is to carry dangerous goods, or cause or permit dangerous goods to be carried, where that carriage is prohibited by ADR or RID, including where that carriage does not comply with any applicable requirement of ADR or RID.
Sorry Dave.You are wrong!
i had Class1 all the Time,and it was ADR Regulation that you needed for some Class 1 Explosives a second Person with you.
When you stop must be always one at the Vehicle.
If you drive a Vehicle under 3500kg Gross you need no ADR Licence,but still a second Person
The second Person must be employed or Hired by the Carrier.Wife does not count usually,as it is anywhy ilegal to have a Privat Person with you if you have Dangerous Good loaded.
You don’t need ADR or second Person by Explosives fitted in Seatbelt or so.
Lovelyperson:
Sorry Dave.You are wrong!
Hi Lovelyperson, Anybody can come on here and say what you’ve said, so let’s have a proper discussion about it, then please would you provide the references for what you’ve said so that I can learn…? 
Lovelyperson:
i had Class1 all the Time,and it was ADR Regulation that you needed for some Class 1 Explosives a second Person with you.
I’ll agree that ADR has (24) supervision codes, but none of them mention a second person in the way that you mean.
My reference is ADR 2009 8.5 (S1 - S24)
Your ADR reference to the contrary is…
Lovelyperson:
When you stop must be always one at the Vehicle.
As above.
Did you forget the alternative to supervision when the vehicle is safely parked?
ADR 2009 8.4.1:
8.4.1 Vehicles carrying dangerous goods in the quantities shown in special provisions S1 (6) and S14 to S24 of Chapter 8.5 for a given substance according to Column (19) of Table A of Chapter 3.2 shall be supervised or alternatively may be parked, unsupervised, in a secure depot or secure factory premises. If such facilities are not available, the vehicle, after having been properly secured, may be parked in an isolated position meeting the requirements of (a), (b) or (c) below:
(a) A vehicle park supervised by an attendant who has been notified of the nature of the
load and the whereabouts of the driver;(b) A public or private vehicle park where the vehicle is not likely to suffer damage from
other vehicles; or(c) A suitable open space separated from the public highway and from dwellings, where
the public does not normally pass or assemble.The parking facilities permitted in (b) shall be used only if those described in (a) are not available, and those described in (c) may be used only if facilities described in (a) and (b) are not available.
Options (b) and (c) above mean that it’s OK to leave the vehicle unattended whilst the driver goes for a comfort break or to eat.
Lovelyperson:
If you drive a Vehicle under 3500kg Gross you need no ADR Licence,but still a second Person
ADR 2009 8.2.1 says different now.
The (OLD) exemption for drivers of vehicles of vehicles of 3.5t (or less) GVW from needing an ADR licence was removed by ADR 2007 8.2.1, which came into force on 01/01/07, so you’re a little more than 2.5 years out of date.
The second person is answered above.
Your current ADR reference to the contrary is…
Lovelyperson:
The second Person must be employed or Hired by the Carrier.Wife does not count usually,as it is anywhy ilegal to have a Privat Person with you if you have Dangerous Good loaded.
Correct, any crew member on board a vehicle carrying any dangerous goods must also have at least a documented ‘awareness’ of ADR.
ADR 2009 8.2.3
Lovelyperson:
You don’t need ADR or second Person by Explosives fitted in Seatbelt or so.
Correct, because once they are assembled into components they’re not usually counted as dangerous goods.
ADR 2009 3.3.1 SP289
There is sometimes some confusion about ADR and what it’s for. ADR is simply an international agreement on the international carriage of dangerous goods. The member countries are at liberty to make their own national dangerous goods laws for national carriage. For instance, the UK has CDG 2009 and Germany has GGVSE. The original question related to the way that we did things in the UK for national carriage.
teatime was correct about attendants for the carriage of UN Class 1 in the UK:
CDG 2007 Reg.81:
81.–(1) If a carrier is carrying any class 1 goods by road in a transport unit he shall ensure
that the driver of the transport unit is accompanied by an attendant when the transport unit is
not parked.
That’s the way that we’d carried UN Class 1 in the UK for many years, but this old requirement was revoked by CDG 2009 Reg.33:
The 2007 Regulations are revoked.
CDG 2009 is now in force as from 01/07/09:
CDG 2009 Reg.1:
These Regulations may be cited as the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2009 and come into force on 1st July 2009.
And… there’s no mention of an attendant.
I’ll take a guess that your ADR licence is expired, or is about to expire, so perhaps you’d like a refresher course
MfG,
dieseldave,
Gefahrgutbeauftragte und ADR Lehrer.
Dave won that one then
garnerlives:
Dave won that one then
Lovelyperson:
Sorry Dave.You are wrong!
I have learned that to say an expert is wrong can be embarrassing 
I now challenge the expert and ask why their way is correct and ask for an explanation - much safer and puts the onus onto the expert
The bit that impressed me most was the Gefahrgutbeaufgetragte
Not the same business then teatime, but we have the same cards and smile as we go by
dieseldave:
Lovelyperson:
Sorry Dave.You are wrong!Hi Lovelyperson, Anybody can come on here and say what you’ve said, so let’s have a proper discussion about it, then please would you provide the references for what you’ve said so that I can learn…?
Lovelyperson:
i had Class1 all the Time,and it was ADR Regulation that you needed for some Class 1 Explosives a second Person with you.I’ll agree that ADR has (24) supervision codes, but none of them mention a second person in the way that you mean.
My reference is ADR 2009 8.5 (S1 - S24)
Your ADR reference to the contrary is…Lovelyperson:
When you stop must be always one at the Vehicle.As above.
Did you forget the alternative to supervision when the vehicle is safely parked?
ADR 2009 8.4.1:8.4.1 Vehicles carrying dangerous goods in the quantities shown in special provisions S1 (6) and S14 to S24 of Chapter 8.5 for a given substance according to Column (19) of Table A of Chapter 3.2 shall be supervised or alternatively may be parked, unsupervised, in a secure depot or secure factory premises. If such facilities are not available, the vehicle, after having been properly secured, may be parked in an isolated position meeting the requirements of (a), (b) or (c) below:
(a) A vehicle park supervised by an attendant who has been notified of the nature of the
load and the whereabouts of the driver;(b) A public or private vehicle park where the vehicle is not likely to suffer damage from
other vehicles; or(c) A suitable open space separated from the public highway and from dwellings, where
the public does not normally pass or assemble.The parking facilities permitted in (b) shall be used only if those described in (a) are not available, and those described in (c) may be used only if facilities described in (a) and (b) are not available.
Options (b) and (c) above mean that it’s OK to leave the vehicle unattended whilst the driver goes for a comfort break or to eat.
Lovelyperson:
If you drive a Vehicle under 3500kg Gross you need no ADR Licence,but still a second PersonADR 2009 8.2.1 says different now.
The second person is answered above.Your current ADR reference to the contrary is…
Lovelyperson:
The second Person must be employed or Hired by the Carrier.Wife does not count usually,as it is anywhy ilegal to have a Privat Person with you if you have Dangerous Good loaded.Correct, any crew member on board a vehicle carrying any dangerous goods must also have at least a documented ‘awareness’ of ADR.
ADR 2009 8.2.3Lovelyperson:
You don’t need ADR or second Person by Explosives fitted in Seatbelt or so.Correct, because once they are assembled into components they’re not usually counted as dangerous goods.
ADR 2009 3.3.1 SP289There is sometimes some confusion about ADR and what it’s for. ADR is simply an international agreement on the international carriage of dangerous goods. The member countries are at liberty to make their own national dangerous goods laws for national carriage. For instance, the UK has CDG 2009 and Germany has GGVSE. The original question related to the way that we did things in the UK for national carriage.
teatime was correct about attendants for the carriage of UN Class 1 in the UK:
CDG 2007 Reg.81:81.–(1) If a carrier is carrying any class 1 goods by road in a transport unit he shall ensure
that the driver of the transport unit is accompanied by an attendant when the transport unit is
not parked.That’s the way that we’d carried UN Class 1 in the UK for many years, but this old requirement was revoked by CDG 2009 Reg.33:
The 2007 Regulations are revoked.
CDG 2009 is now in force as from 01/07/09:
CDG 2009 Reg.1:
These Regulations may be cited as the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2009 and come into force on 1st July 2009.
And… there’s no mention of an attendant.
MfG,
dieseldave,
Gefahrgutbeauftragte und ADR Lehrer.
and (pause) Breathe
Are you still on the slow release pills Dave?
albion:
The bit that impressed me most was the Gefahrgutbeaufgetragte
Hi albion, Not many people realise this, but Lovelyperson is Austrian, and it’s perfectly possible that attendants are still required under the Austrian version of CDG or GGVSE. It’s quite a common error for folks to blur the boundaries between their own national Regs and ADR. The Brits are usually quite good at that.
The English title Dangerous Goods Safety Adviser is IMHO a poor translation of the name of the DGSA qualification and so those initials might not be familiar to him. So in an effort to help, I used the German word for it. Gefahrgutbeauftragte is actually a much more accurate word, but it doesn’t translate very well into English.
I’m glad that Lovelyperson’s first language is German, because if it were anything else, I’d have to send for help.
Wheel Nut:
and (pause) BreatheAre you still on the slow release pills Dave?
Hi Malc,
Oh yes mate, and I just love a good discussion.
One of my little hobby-horses is that an ADR licence is only renewable every five years, but ADR itself is completely binned and republished every two years. It falls to the Carrier’s DGSA (ADR 2009 1.8.3.3.) to see to it that vehicle drivers are kept informed of changes to Regs, but not all of them are particularly good at doing so… 
It’s absolutely NO reflection on teatime or Lovelyperson that they seek clarity, but it doesn’t it seem to prove my point?
And I’m still impressed, DieselDave. My german is restricted to counting, basic directions and asking for food -not always successful.
We do transport explosives abroad, most of western Europe and occasionally an amble across to Sweden, so we are used to the vagaries of different countries. Never been to Austria with explosives though, waiting to add that one to the list!