Brexiteers against free movement?

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
81

Grandpa:
it’s the Schengen Treaty which dissolved European borders and allowed mass-immigration

Nice to know. Since the UK is NOT a signatory to the Schengen Treaty it isn`t very relevant here is it?
However Switzerland and Norway, who are not in the EU are in the Schengen Zone.

Grandpa:
We were all doing OK 10 to 15 years ago,

In 2008 there was summat called “The Great Recession” that had a big effect on the economies of a lot of countries.
Unfortunately the EU and the UK weren`t immune.

Grandpa:
Be very sure that if we’re going to be EU collectivized, wages are going to fall to the cheapest rate and not rise to the highest. That’s what we’re seeing now as we try to compete against cheap imported labour.

tradingeconomics.com/poland/wages
tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/wages
Looking at this UK average wages have risen by about 50% in the past 18yrs.
Same period, Polish wages have risen by about 400%…
Looks rather like the lower paid are catching up with the higher paid doesnt it. And that is maybe the reason Rjan put this thread up? Now the EEs are catching up on pay the Gov want us out of the EU so they can get more cheaper labour from further away. Weve had problems with wage stagnation (worse that other EU countries) and now that there may be a glimmering of light ahead, the goalposts are moving.

Grandpa:
By 1992 and the introduction of the Maastricht Treaty the EEC became the EU, a political union over riding sovereign nations and that’s what the majority of people voted against in 2016.

Do you really know what motivated the voters in 2016?
Maybe you are completely correct.
Maybe many voted to give the sitting Gov a kicking? With Blair and Cameron both supporting remain the protest factor must have been notable.
Maybe they voted for the imaginary £350m a week? `Nuff said there.
Maybe they voted for a whole raft of differing reasons?

82

Grandpa:
Why would you assume even for a moment I’m a Federalist of any kind? I’m about as anti-collectivist as it’s possible to get. Why do you keep referring to politicians who are a part of history? The European Union didn’t exist under Heath or Thatcher. What don’t you understand about Thatcher being anti-Federalist? Here it is again.

“We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them reimposed at a European level with a European superstate exercising a new dominance from Brussels.” Margaret Thatcher, Bruges speech, 1988. Thatcher sensed what was going to happen 30 years ago and was beginning to warn against it.

What don’t you understand about wanting to join an economic block in 1975 and refusing to join a Federalist Europe in 2016? ‘Britain in Europe’ meant joining an economic block, not open borders and ruled by Brussels. The first video title was the clue, it wasn’t about the EU, it was about a common market. Do you understand the difference between an economic trading block (economic market) and a political union, because if you don’t no wonder you’re all over the place on this one.

What the 2016 referendum was about has nothing to do with the EEC, Thatcher or Heath, or anything else that happened nearly 40 years ago. :unamused:

What is it that you don’t understand about what the Treaty of Rome meant but which Powell among others obviously did ?.Or for that matter the glaring inconsistency in Thatcher’s pretence in 1988 with signing us up to the Single European Act the year previously.

No surprise that in your rush to defend Thatcher you’ve missed ( ignored ) the question if Thatcher was supposedly anti Federalist and didn’t think/know that the EEC ( treaty of Rome ) was just a Blue Print for a Federal Europe.Then how do you explain Powell’s/Shore’s/Benn’s/Heffer’s etc position.Who were,correctly, all absolutely clear that the treaty of Rome was a Federal European document which trashed our individual national sovereignty.Surely you’re not trying to say that they all mysteriously had psychic powers that Thatcher didn’t have.

It’s bleedin clear enough that Heath and Thatcher were Federalist liars who knew exactly what the EEC was all about.If she wasn’t she’d have stood against Heath on the side of Powell on the grounds of sovereignty regarding our ‘EEC’ membership.Or are you saying that Heath also didn’t know what the Treaty of Rome meant ?. :unamused:

On that note define the meaning of ‘Unionist’,if that supposedly doesn’t translate directly as Federalist,within the Con Party title.

83

Grandpa:
Let’s try and simplify this. In the 70s as Britain lost its colonies and industrial power, it seemed like a good idea to join an economic trading block of leading European economies, a common market. That’s what the 1975 referendum was about. By 1992 and the introduction of the Maastricht Treaty the EEC became the EU, a political union over riding sovereign nations and that’s what the majority of people voted against in 2016.

The open borders Schengen Treaty, or the euro, or a European parliament has nothing to do with the former EEC, it’s something completely different. You can’t blame Thatcher or Heath for the EU, it didn’t even exist when they were in office. When Thatcher and Heath talked of Europe they meant a common market, not a Federalist Europe although they knew where it was heading and in the quote above Thatcher warned against it.

The EEC and EU are two separate issues, two separate entities with different aims and ambitions. They’re not the same thing. Until you understand that you’ll continue to dig back through history to try to find the answer to something that didn’t exist before 1992.

Oh wait have you actually read the treaty of Rome.You know inconvenient wording like ‘‘ever closer UNION’’.While contrary to your bs the European Assembly ( equivalent of the EU parliament ) and the European Commission were all there as part of the treaty of Rome and up and running from 1958 at least.

europarl.europa.eu/about-par … ty-of-rome

europarl.europa.eu/about-par … ropean-act

You also seem to have conveniently missed out us signing up to the Single European Act which was another ( pre planned ) nail in our sovereignty certainly signed on Thatcher’s watch.

84

You don’t need statistics, you only need to know what the EU is. Many don’t, others are gullible, every authoritarian regime that ever existed played on that.

Did I say the UK didn’t opt out of the Schengen Treaty? Why imply it then? The referendum centered around the mass immigration of Eastern Europeans into the UK because they’re also in the EU and the UK had no say in it. It’s largely what Brexit was about. Last week I flew into the UK and there were two channels; one for EU nationals and one for foreigners. Why are you trying to pretend that the UK doesn’t have EU open border immigration?

The recession was over a decade ago. The reason European countries can’t get out of it is because they all have to rise or sink together. They’re sinking together.

British wages have risen 50% in the last five years? Are you serious? Are you telling this forum that wages in Britain have risen 50% in the past five years? The only thing rising is the cost of living.

As you rightly say, Polish wages have risen in comparison to their home countries, but they’ll still work for a lot less hence the competition and why wages haven’t risen.

For decades and accelerating with Blair, successive PMs have dragged the UK further into the EU with stealth treaties and the first chance they got the British voted no. How can you say the government want us out of the EU? Which PM was that then? So you’ve said the government want us out of the UK so they can import more cheap labour? That’s what Brexit was about, so that we can stop it and not have the EU telling us we have to.

What motivated the voters in 2016?
Years of stealth treaties by the political elite dragging the UK further into a Federalist Europe ruled from Brussels. That’s why the government got a kicking. What’s imaginary about £350 a week? There is no raft of reasons for Brexit; if people were OK with being ruled by the elite in Brussels they wouldn’t have voted a majority Brexit.

85

Grandpa:
You don’t need statistics, you only need to know what the EU is. Many don’t, others are gullible, every authoritarian regime that ever existed played on that.

Without statistics and facts we have no rational basis to make decisions. Dont authoritarian regimes often take control of newspapers and other media outlets in order to control the publics access to the facts? In order to be a free, fair, and democratic society we need access to, and better understanding of facts.
Statistics are just one facet of this. How can you know what anything is, including the EU, without having access to all the facts?

Grandpa:
Did I say the UK didn’t opt out of the Schengen Treaty? Why imply it then?

Youre the one who repeatedly mentioned Schengen, although the UK is not a signatory. You made reference to it without stating the UK opted out. Isnt it you who has been guilty of making implications?

Grandpa:
The referendum centered around the mass immigration of Eastern Europeans into the UK because they’re also in the EU and the UK had no say in it.

Much of that, as I addressed in a previous post was due to the Blair gov allowing in more labour from the new EE countries in 2004, than other EU countries did. National UK decision making, rather than EU.

I previously asked you why you find “mass immigration” such an issue in the UK, but not in Switzerland and Norway. Both those countries are outside the EU, but have close ties with it, including being inside the Schengen Zone and having free movement of EU citizens?

Grandpa:
British wages have risen 50% in the last five years? Are you serious?

Franglais:
Looking at this UK average wages have risen by about 50% in the past 18yrs.

Grandpa:
What’s imaginary about £350 a week?

Assuming we are talking about the £350 million a week on the red bus.
Almost everyone involved in that, except maybe Johnson, distanced themselves from the £350m lie as soon as the referendum was over.

If you still believe in nonsense like £350m, it may show that those who have no appreciation of facts and figures really are as gullible as you suggested.

86

We’re going around in circles here, so I’ll start to wind down on this one.

The EU is not a political party that is voted in and out. It’s dangerous because like the Soviet Union which its hierarchal system is modelled on, once in you’re in for good. No country has ever been able to vote the EU out.

“If it’s a Yes, we will say ‘on we go’, and if it’s a No we will say ‘we continue’” – On the French and Dutch referendums, 2005. He went on to state; “If we were to add up all the votes of the people who wanted ‘more Europe’ as a yes, then I think we would have had a yes vote.”

“When it becomes serious, you have to lie.” – 2011. On the Eurozone debt crisis.

The irony is that Britain was given a referendum to join something it hadn’t voted to join, but was led into by treaties and stealth. The reason for that is if the people ever read what treaties like the (European Constitution) Lisbon Treaty contained and the power transfer from the UK to the EU they’d have been appalled which is why a referendum was wrung out of Cameron who thought the people would vote remain and why it was kept going by promises until then.

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?” – 2005. Advising PM Brown on presenting a British referendum to the public.

All quotes from Jean Claude-Junker.

The EU, otherwise known as the ‘European project’ is built on lies and deceit. It doesn’t need to apologize for being an elite led anti-democratic institution because it doesn’t pretend it’s anything else. Yet leaving all that aside, how has Britain as one of the few net contributors benefitted from political EU integration

We don’t need statistics to deny that mass migration from the Eastern Bloc (or elsewhere) has been a complete disaster all over Europe. Can anyone complain that flooding the labour market with cheap foreign labour keeps wages down, or that employers will use that to their advantage? Is it really because of the EU that wages have risen for the past two decades and if so, why did they also rise before the EU? Where has the fishing industry gone? Why can’t we vote out the bureaucrats who implemented the Working Time Directive? For this we pay an organization 20% EU VAT that controls us, by politicians who inform us that it’s a bargain?

Be very careful when relying on statistics, they are not necessarily facts, but often disguised with semantics as in the unemployed suddenly becoming job seekers. The elite politicians running the EU are masters of spin, after all it’s to their advantage. Is this really the system we want to live under and vote for? This is a return to serfdom under another name and the gullible of each generation fall for it every time.

As the net contributing economies continue to stagnate, I have a feeling that if there’s a second referendum of ‘yes’, the remainers will be the first to complain when it all starts to fall apart as they did throughout the 20th century and are unable to vote it out.

87

Franglais:

Grandpa:
You don’t need statistics, you only need to know what the EU is. Many don’t, others are gullible, every authoritarian regime that ever existed played on that.

Without statistics and facts we have no rational basis to make decisions. Dont authoritarian regimes often take control of newspapers and other media outlets in order to control the publics access to the facts? In order to be a free, fair, and democratic society we need access to, and better understanding of facts.
Statistics are just one facet of this. How can you know what anything is, including the EU, without having access to all the facts?

Grandpa:
Did I say the UK didn’t opt out of the Schengen Treaty? Why imply it then?

Youre the one who repeatedly mentioned Schengen, although the UK is not a signatory. You made reference to it without stating the UK opted out. Isnt it you who has been guilty of making implications?

Grandpa:
The referendum centered around the mass immigration of Eastern Europeans into the UK because they’re also in the EU and the UK had no say in it.

Much of that, as I addressed in a previous post was due to the Blair gov allowing in more labour from the new EE countries in 2004, than other EU countries did. National UK decision making, rather than EU.

I previously asked you why you find “mass immigration” such an issue in the UK, but not in Switzerland and Norway. Both those countries are outside the EU, but have close ties with it, including being inside the Schengen Zone and having free movement of EU citizens?

Grandpa:
British wages have risen 50% in the last five years? Are you serious?

Franglais:
Looking at this UK average wages have risen by about 50% in the past 18yrs.

Grandpa:
What’s imaginary about £350 a week?

Assuming we are talking about the £350 million a week on the red bus.
Almost everyone involved in that, except maybe Johnson, distanced themselves from the £350m lie as soon as the referendum was over.

If you still believe in nonsense like £350m, it may show that those who have no appreciation of facts and figures really are as gullible as you suggested.

Firstly who are you trying to kid that the East Euro cheap labour scam isn’t all about EU free movement rules and has absoutely nothing to do with when we implemented those rules.The fact is they had to be implemented one way or another with no opt outs and your bs French ‘delay’ means nothing regarding that fact.

As for your idea of ‘democracy’ yes we know two Italian Communist votes are worth more than one Brit Nationalist vote in deciding what happens in Britain. :unamused:

As for the 350m probably an understatement when we combine the net contribution figure with the net trade deficit.Now awaits more Fedralist lies that net doesn’t mean overall in your la la land.

88

Grandpa:
The irony is that Britain was given a referendum to join something it hadn’t voted to join, but was led into by treaties and stealth.

Which leaves the question why would anyone think that it’s ok or even legal for anyone,including parliament,to vote a de Facto recognised nation state out of existence and into EU vassalage ‘including’ Farage ?.It’s obvious that the ‘referendum’ was a one sided scam being used to buy credibility among the gullible public for what was/is clearly a Conservative Federalist Party agenda.It’s just that something went wrong with the vote rigging exercise in 2016 and we are where we are with the Cons and their stooge Farage having to resort to plan B.

89

Grandpa:
Be very careful when relying on statistics, they are not necessarily facts, but often disguised with semantics as in the unemployed suddenly becoming job seekers.

Accurate stats are facts.
Inaccurate stats or misapplied and misunderstood stats are dangerous.
Stats are tools, they can be used for good or bad purposes.
Look at how stats are (mis)used in that clip.
The film says MEPs receive £41,000 for “office expenses and computers”. Thats true. The film shows cartoons of phones etc. It omits to say that the MEPs constituency office rent etc is to come from this figure too. The film says that they receive £225,000 staffing costs, and shows a picture of a cook. It chooses not show pictures of secretaries and assistants to help the MEPs deal with the woes of their constituents. The figures may well be accurate,the way the film chooses to present them may be seen by some as a disguise. We wouldnt be too impressed if we had matters to take up with our Representatives and couldn`t raise a response because they are staffed by part-time inexperienced underqualified kids. At the same time wasteful abuse of expenses is a serious matter, and should be dealt with. There is a place for discussion and debate here.

I do think there is an issue with transparency around MEP expenses etc. There can be, and should be great accountability for all MEPs MPs and civil servants in National and EU posts.

Not all of them “get away with it” of course.
theguardian.com/politics/20 … blic-funds

90

Franglais:
Looking at this UK average wages have risen by about 50% in the past 18yrs.

I must admit that is hardly credible is it?

Most working people are not 50% better off than 20 years ago. In the past 10 years, wages haven’t grown at all and reflects the worst performance in wage growth since the pre-Victorian period.

Adjusted for cost of living, non-discretionary basics, and work effort, I would think the large number are worse off.

91

Rjan:

Franglais:
Looking at this UK average wages have risen by about 50% in the past 18yrs.

I must admit that is hardly credible is it?

Most working people are not 50% better off than 20 years ago. In the past 10 years, wages haven’t grown at all and reflects the worst performance in wage growth since the pre-Victorian period.

Adjusted for cost of living, non-discretionary basics, and work effort, I would think the large number are worse off.

The ONS is a brilliant resource.
There are other tables so you can cross refer between average wages, sector specific wages, overtime worked etc.etc. It is very comprehensive. It does also contain lots of info on household debt, mortgages, cost of living etc. All the info to understand what is going on in the economy is there, but it is a full time task to get to truly understand it all.
I believe you said somewhere that we all follow our opinions?
To make informed decisions and form rational opinions we need hard facts. They are available but do need careful interpretation.

The figures don`t say we are 50% better off. They do say that the Polish workers wages are rising faster than ours are. Those Polish figures were based on their own Gov stats. This supports the article you first quoted.

Given they are average wages quoted, then there will be some higher and some lower.
I daresay that road transport is one of the lower ones.

92

Rjan:

Franglais:
Looking at this UK average wages have risen by about 50% in the past 18yrs.

I must admit that is hardly credible is it?

Most working people are not 50% better off than 20 years ago. In the past 10 years, wages haven’t grown at all and reflects the worst performance in wage growth since the pre-Victorian period.

Adjusted for cost of living, non-discretionary basics, and work effort, I would think the large number are worse off.

The average British working man is no better off than he was 20 years ago, todays wages may have gone up, but they do not compensate for the cost of living increases and more than not are subsidised by tax credits to bring them up to a living income.
House prices have increased and so has the level of mortgage required, forcing families to live in rented accommodation often at massively increased rent.

93

The GINI rating of the UK has got higher (worse) over the past few decades.
The difference between rich and poor is noticeably greater now that in the 70s. It seemed to rise a lot in the 80s then plateau. We all know who was No Ten then dont we? Although it isnt as bad as the US, or Russia, it is higher than the Scandinavian countries, and comparable or a little higher than other west Eu countries.
equalitytrust.org.uk/how-ha … ty-changed
gfmag.com/global-data/econo … inequality

Seems to me that is another factor in our personal perceived wealth, or lack of. We compare ourselves to others. If some are doing better, but we (although better off) arent keeping up with the rest, we feel worse off. It isnt easy to unpick all of that.

94

Indeed. Tell that to the French who feel they are losing ground but didn’t realise they had such a good place to start from. Hence the GJ movement.

95

OwenMoney:
Indeed. Tell that to the French who feel they are losing ground but didn’t realise they had such a good place to start from. Hence the GJ movement.

Speaking as a grizzly grey headed ole git, the conversation sometimes gets around to retirement at the Routiers table. When some of the French drivers moan about the changing retirement ages I find it hard to commiserate too much. Some can see how their old system is unsustainable, especially the younger ones, but those of my age…hmmm…there arent any.... OK, I see that for each driver, seeing the finishing post moving away is bad, but living on a pension for 30 yrs, after working and paying in for 40yrs, aint gonna fly.
What was it? 35 or 40yrs service as a routier for a full state pension?

96

Franglais:

Rjan:

Franglais:
Looking at this UK average wages have risen by about 50% in the past 18yrs.

I must admit that is hardly credible is it?

Most working people are not 50% better off than 20 years ago. In the past 10 years, wages haven’t grown at all and reflects the worst performance in wage growth since the pre-Victorian period.

Adjusted for cost of living, non-discretionary basics, and work effort, I would think the large number are worse off.

The ONS is a brilliant resource.
There are other tables so you can cross refer between average wages, sector specific wages, overtime worked etc.etc. It is very comprehensive. It does also contain lots of info on household debt, mortgages, cost of living etc. All the info to understand what is going on in the economy is there, but it is a full time task to get to truly understand it all.
I believe you said somewhere that we all follow our opinions?
To make informed decisions and form rational opinions we need hard facts. They are available but do need careful interpretation.

The figures don`t say we are 50% better off. They do say that the Polish workers wages are rising faster than ours are. Those Polish figures were based on their own Gov stats. This supports the article you first quoted.

Given they are average wages quoted, then there will be some higher and some lower.
I daresay that road transport is one of the lower ones.

I certainly don’t disagree with you that Polish wages are rising faster than British.

Starting from a lower base, with large parts of their workforce being creamed off, and with capital investment flowing in, you would expect wage rises there - although a quadrupling after inflation seems remarkable.

Nor do I disagree that we have to make use of statistics - their frequent abuse or misinterpretation doesn’t invalidate their use in principle.

But I can hardly believe that the British worker has gained 50% after inflation in the past 20 years, particularly when I know offhand that the past 10 have involved no rise at all.

This article, for example, shows that inflation since 2000 has outstripped pay rises:
bbc.co.uk/news/business-20442666

97

Rjan:
I certainly don’t disagree with you that Polish wages are rising faster than British.

Starting from a lower base, with large parts of their workforce being creamed off, and with capital investment flowing in, you would expect wage rises there - although a quadrupling after inflation seems remarkable.

Nor do I disagree that we have to make use of statistics - their frequent abuse or misinterpretation doesn’t invalidate their use in principle.

But I can hardly believe that the British worker has gained 50% after inflation in the past 20 years, particularly when I know offhand that the past 10 have involved no rise at all.

This article, for example, shows that inflation since 2000 has outstripped pay rises:
bbc.co.uk/news/business-20442666

Are you reading what isnt written? The figures I quoted are from the NOS and are only average gross wages. The methodology is best read on the NOS site rather than have me repeat and confuse by poor explanations. And we should all be careful about what we "know offhand", shouldnt we? :smiley:
Dont some obvious truths turn out to be false on close examination? Historically weve had “black swans” and in more recent years the NHS has done lots of work on evidence based medicine.
Even seemingly well documented treatments may not be as effective as at first sight. (And Im leaving out of that the well documented Merck/Vioxx type situation). Many sincere professionals, are too close to the trees to be able to see the woods. Even without deliberate obfuscation the world is a complex enough place to need the clarity of figures to help interpret it. There are so many conflicting influences that it is hard to see any clear path. In fact that just shows there *isnt* any clear path. Any simplistic cause to our problems and any simplistic cure must be false, surely?

98

Did you know that you can retire 5 years early if you have worked international, permenant nights or a 3x8 shift pattern.
I think it’s been stopped now but I can retire at 62 here but 67 in the UK.
Exacebating the driver shortage no end,and financially unsustainable for the country

99

Franglais:

Rjan:
…

Are you reading what isnt written? The figures I quoted are from the NOS and are only average gross wages. The methodology is best read on the NOS site rather than have me repeat and confuse by poor explanations. And we should all be careful about what we "know offhand", shouldnt we? :smiley:
Dont some obvious truths turn out to be false on close examination? Historically weve had “black swans” and in more recent years the NHS has done lots of work on evidence based medicine.
Even seemingly well documented treatments may not be as effective as at first sight. (And Im leaving out of that the well documented Merck/Vioxx type situation). Many sincere professionals, are too close to the trees to be able to see the woods. Even without deliberate obfuscation the world is a complex enough place to need the clarity of figures to help interpret it. There are so many conflicting influences that it is hard to see any clear path. In fact that just shows there *isnt* any clear path. Any simplistic cause to our problems and any simplistic cure must be false, surely?

You’re becoming philosophical to the point of losing touch!

You may be quoting an authority on statistics - I certainly wasn’t suggesting you’d made them up. All I do suggest is either that you’re unintentionally misrepresenting them, or that the methodology is faulty or irrelevant to the point being made. Either way, to claim that wages have risen 50% stinks of falsehood.

If I were to speculate, I would say either inflation has not been accounted for at all, or it has not been accounted for fully.

Most mainstream inflation measures, do not account fully for inflation in living costs as experienced by workers.

The BBC link makes a similar claim about wages rising 40% - but it also then implies that this is in cash terms, and notes that inflation has risen at 43%, and thus a net loss in wages in real terms.

I haven’t proposed simplistic solutions. And you seem simultaneously to endorse experts and then refer to their frequent fallibility.

100

OwenMoney:
Did you know that you can retire 5 years early if you have worked international, permenant nights or a 3x8 shift pattern.
I think it’s been stopped now but I can retire at 62 here but 67 in the UK.
Exacebating the driver shortage no end,and financially unsustainable for the country

That’s what I was struggling to remember: the early retirement for international drivers.
They still do well compared to us, although maybe not as well as previously. And it is a fiscal time bomb.

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