Brexiteers against free movement?

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
101

Rjan:

Franglais:

Rjan:
…

Are you reading what isnt written? The figures I quoted are from the NOS and are only average gross wages. The methodology is best read on the NOS site rather than have me repeat and confuse by poor explanations. And we should all be careful about what we "know offhand", shouldnt we? :smiley:
Dont some obvious truths turn out to be false on close examination? Historically weve had “black swans” and in more recent years the NHS has done lots of work on evidence based medicine.
Even seemingly well documented treatments may not be as effective as at first sight. (And Im leaving out of that the well documented Merck/Vioxx type situation). Many sincere professionals, are too close to the trees to be able to see the woods. Even without deliberate obfuscation the world is a complex enough place to need the clarity of figures to help interpret it. There are so many conflicting influences that it is hard to see any clear path. In fact that just shows there *isnt* any clear path. Any simplistic cause to our problems and any simplistic cure must be false, surely?

You’re becoming philosophical to the point of losing touch!

You may be quoting an authority on statistics - I certainly wasn’t suggesting you’d made them up. All I do suggest is either that you’re unintentionally misrepresenting them, or that the methodology is faulty or irrelevant to the point being made. Either way, to claim that wages have risen 50% stinks of falsehood.

If I were to speculate, I would say either inflation has not been accounted for at all, or it has not been accounted for fully.

Most mainstream inflation measures, do not account fully for inflation in living costs as experienced by workers.

The BBC link makes a similar claim about wages rising 40% - but it also then implies that this is in cash terms, and notes that inflation has risen at 43%, and thus a net loss in wages in real terms.

I haven’t proposed simplistic solutions. And you seem simultaneously to endorse experts and then refer to their frequent fallibility.

Sorry, yes rambling away on a Saturday evening.
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And I wasn’t accusing you of offering simplistic solutions, but trying to say their are dangers in looking at just one aspect of any problem, and making too much of that.
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I provided links so you can see that inflation isn’t accounted for at all. I was Only using those figures to compare gross average wage rises in Poland and UK. Nothing to do with anything else, just that one narrow point. I’m not suggesting that is the only relevant point, but the differences are striking.
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Because none of us have the expertise or the time to research everything to the n.th degree we must trust others to an extent. But we should never trust any :“expert” who says “it’s true because I’m an expert and I’m telling you it’s so”. That is the way of “priesthoods” and the inner circle. All true experts will explain how they arrive at their conclusions and should be open to questioning and criticism. Peer reviewing is invaluable. Checking sources is always a good thing.
Click on links in articles and sometimes the chain will lead to a reputable source like the Lancet or New Scientist (neither perfect unfortunately but normally solid), sometimes to a dodgy, privately funded, politically motivated organization.
.
And this is before we go into “balance” of reporting in news sites, on the BBC etc.
FWIW I think the BBC try hard to be honest, but sometimes leans over backwards to be fair. (Wakefield MMR) Their reporting of climate change was going in that direction but not so much now.
Sorry, wandering off again.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

102

@Franglais

I’m probably stating the obvious here, but you do know the difference between qualitative and quantitative research, don’t you? Qualitative is descriptive and quantitative is statistical. The EU is what it is despite the pro-Europeans trying to argue it’s something else. Instead many try to use flawed statistics to prove their point. For example; the acclaimed figure of EU unemployment is around 10%, which given a post-industrial era and a recent huge recession isn’t bad. Yet look a little deeper and you find Spain has a youth unemployment rate of 39%+ and in Greece at the beginning of the year overall unemployment stood at 18.5%. So where does the magical EU 10% figure come from? They averaged all the countries in the EU out and came up with that figure. Using that formula, if we average out the world we’d find that the UK has no poverty and everyone is wealthy.

Now, you could argue all that’s not the fault of the EU, but if you have an organization that determines economic policy and whose laws and regulations countries have to obey, the EU must accept a large measure of responsibility for the consequences.

You want to change things? How about going to see your MEP and demanding they abolish the £250 a day for simply turning up to work and see what answer you get? The above video isn’t biased in the sense that it’s wrong, but making a point that the EU is an elite ‘gravy train.’ The video isn’t meant to be statistical, it’s a documentary in which you draw your own conclusions.

It’s no coincidence that the new Brexit party that is hardly up and running yet is beating the pro-EU mainstream parties. People don’t need statistics to tell them that wages are rising and the influx of cheap foreign labour is beneficial, or that multiculturalism and diversity is changing British culture for the better. Britain is doing great? Compared to who, Slovakia?

It really isn’t as complicated as nit-picking over statistics, or trying to pretend that the EU is something it isn’t. What is happening now is simply a by-product, a consequence of EU political ambitions. From the EEC change to the EU they already told you what it was; an attempt to create a Federalist Europe, based on equality, led by a political elite. From the 14th century ‘Peasants revolt’ to the English civil war, the British have always fought against absolute authoritarian rule and didn’t get dragged into the various copies that arose in the 20th century. The Hungarians and Czechs more recently also rebelled against the Russian version of it. For those that want to remain in the EU and to all effects abolish British sovereignty, don’t try to put the put the blame on politicians 50 years ago and remember, that if there’s another referendum and you vote ‘yes’, that’s the last referendum you’ll ever get.

103

Rjan:
If I were to speculate, I would say either inflation has not been accounted for at all, or it has not been accounted for fully.

The BBC link makes a similar claim about wages rising 40% - but it also then implies that this is in cash terms, and notes that inflation has risen at 43%, and thus a net loss in wages in real terms.

I haven’t proposed simplistic solutions. And you seem simultaneously to endorse experts and then refer to their frequent fallibility.

How many times do we hear the phrase the price of X,Y,Z has risen by ‘more than the rate of inflation’.How many XYZ’s does it take to realise that the inflation figure is thereby meaningless. :unamused:

So there we have it rigged inflation figures.Being used to cover the fact,that part of the price of our EU membership,was handing over our wealth creating industry and with it the wage bargaining power of the now over supplied labour market,to German banker elites and the German workforce.If not race to the bottom low wage expectation member states taking full advantage of the free movement of capital and labour.Who would have thought it.

104

Grandpa:
It really isn’t as complicated as nit-picking over statistics, or trying to pretend that the EU is something it isn’t. What is happening now is simply a by-product, a consequence of EU political ambitions. From the EEC change to the EU they already told you what it was; an attempt to create a Federalist Europe, based on equality, led by a political elite. From the 14th century ‘Peasants revolt’ to the English civil war, the British have always fought against absolute authoritarian rule and didn’t get dragged into the various copies that arose in the 20th century. The Hungarians and Czechs more recently also rebelled against the Russian version of it. For those that want to remain in the EU and to all effects abolish British sovereignty, don’t try to put the put the blame on politicians 50 years ago and remember, that if there’s another referendum and you vote ‘yes’, that’s the last referendum you’ll ever get.

What about those who don’t want to remain in the EU.But who also realise that the whole present day stitch up is just a continuation of what people like Churchill said and did in calling for a USE let alone Heath and Thatcher and HM herself and even present day plants like Farage.On that note it should come as no surprise that a country born out of foreign imposed Federalism ( UK ) stamping out the self determination of Britain’s sovereign nation states itself then gets swallowed up by an even bigger foreign European behemoth.All obviously helped by a dedicated to Federalism establishment Party and a Head of State with German Federalist roots admired by such notables as Bismark himself married to the Franco/Norman/Plantagenet line which destroyed the self determination and sovereignty of Scotland and England.Although Ireland at least managed to escape for a while at the cost of the lives of many like my Great Uncle only to then hand itself back over to the EU instead of the UK.

105

Franglais:

Rjan:
…

Sorry, yes rambling away on a Saturday evening.
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And I wasn’t accusing you of offering simplistic solutions, but trying to say their are dangers in looking at just one aspect of any problem, and making too much of that.

Is that just a general point (which seems reasonable enough), or are you putting it as a rebuke to something I’ve previously said where I considered something too narrowly? If so, which previous statement are you addressing?

I provided links so you can see that inflation isn’t accounted for at all. I was Only using those figures to compare gross average wage rises in Poland and UK. Nothing to do with anything else, just that one narrow point. I’m not suggesting that is the only relevant point, but the differences are striking.

It may not be striking at all if the inflation rate in Poland is running at around 400% over the similar period. It is said the cost of a great many basic things have increased in Eastern Europe, including housing.

The only thing that really counts is real-terms wages - otherwise you’d be saying the Turkish worker in the 90s saw wages rise many-fold, when in fact they were reduced to penury by high inflation and the currency was eventually replaced. The cash rises were merely a consequence of inflation.

And the definition of “real-terms” can be hotly contested. Household earnings may increase in real-terms relative to consumer prices, but if it is only because both parents work, and now have the cost of additional cars and fuel, childcare costs, elderly care costs, and work effort has obviously increased, then obviously that is not an improvement in standard of living - the unit costs of cars, fuel, nurseries, and retirement homes, may cost exactly the same as before, but working people then have to consume more of them whereas previously they could do without (and avoid paying the capitalist his cut of every market transaction). Working class women, particularly, have fared extremely badly.

It’s plausible and consistent with both principle and anecdote to argue that the worker in Poland has seen larger wage rises than the worker in Britain. But the statistics you quote do nothing further to establish the fact beyond what is vaguely known already from anecdote and principle.

The ascendancy of the far right in Eastern Europe strongly suggests to me that any cash increase in wages has been accompanied by the introduction of other deteriorations for which wages have not compensated, at least for a large minority.

Generally speaking, the only time wage rises are considered beneficial is when they are synonymous with an increase in workers’ social, economic, and political power - changes in which are often difficult to quantify statistically and in full. If you increase a man’s wages only by bringing him to situation where the whip is cracked against him and he is powerless to resist, he does not feel better off for it, no matter even whether he can afford a solid gold toilet bowl at home as a result, because the metal is cold comfort for experiencing a daily social life of powerlessness and degradation and the risk that he can have it all taken away by the slightest defiance of the powers that be.

That is the great story behind the Tories’ full employment, not that it reflects a hot economy, but that they have eroded people’s power to refuse poorly paid or conditioned work, and workers are working only with extreme begrudgement whilst their pensions are taken away, their job security is taken away, their security of tenure at home is taken away, and their free leisure time is taken away by increasing hours, longer commutes, “flexible” working, and the daily labour of child-rearing and home-keeping on top of a day’s employed labour.

Because none of us have the expertise or the time to research everything to the n.th degree we must trust others to an extent. But we should never trust any :“expert” who says “it’s true because I’m an expert and I’m telling you it’s so”. That is the way of “priesthoods” and the inner circle. All true experts will explain how they arrive at their conclusions and should be open to questioning and criticism. Peer reviewing is invaluable. Checking sources is always a good thing.
Click on links in articles and sometimes the chain will lead to a reputable source like the Lancet or New Scientist (neither perfect unfortunately but normally solid), sometimes to a dodgy, privately funded, politically motivated organization.
.
And this is before we go into “balance” of reporting in news sites, on the BBC etc.
FWIW I think the BBC try hard to be honest, but sometimes leans over backwards to be fair. (Wakefield MMR) Their reporting of climate change was going in that direction but not so much now.
Sorry, wandering off again.

I agree with all those points. The main problem today is the degree to which “expert” opinion is frequently contradicting, or at least striking a harsh chord with, people’s lived experience.

Public “experts” are often a professional class, a worker aristocracy, who frequently don’t live in the real world anymore, or at the very least are selected for their disinclination to make any statement that challenges the status quo or their expertise is directed only about tasks that don’t risk challenge to the status quo.

106

Rjan:
It may not be striking at all if the inflation rate in Poland is running at around 400% over the similar period. It is said the cost of a great many basic things have increased in Eastern Europe, including housing.

The only thing that really counts is real-terms wages - otherwise you’d be saying the Turkish worker in the 90s saw wages rise many-fold, when in fact they were reduced to penury by high inflation and the currency was eventually replaced. The cash rises were merely a consequence of inflation.

And the definition of “real-terms” can be hotly contested. Household earnings may increase in real-terms relative to consumer prices, but if it is only because both parents work, and now have the cost of additional cars and fuel, childcare costs, elderly care costs, and work effort has obviously increased, then obviously that is not an improvement in standard of living - the unit costs of cars, fuel, nurseries, and retirement homes, may cost exactly the same as before, but working people then have to consume more of them whereas previously they could do without (and avoid paying the capitalist his cut of every market transaction). Working class women, particularly, have fared extremely badly.

It’s plausible and consistent with both principle and anecdote to argue that the worker in Poland has seen larger wage rises than the worker in Britain. But the statistics you quote do nothing further to establish the fact beyond what is vaguely known already from anecdote and principle.

Generally speaking, the only time wage rises are considered beneficial is when they are synonymous with an increase in workers’ social, economic, and political power - changes in which are often difficult to quantify statistically and in full. If you increase a man’s wages only by bringing him to situation where the whip is cracked against him and he is powerless to resist, he does not feel better off for it, no matter even whether he can afford a solid gold toilet bowl at home as a result, because the metal is cold comfort for experiencing a daily social life of powerlessness and degradation and the risk that he can have it all taken away by the slightest defiance of the powers that be.

That is the great story behind the Tories’ full employment, not that it reflects a hot economy, but that they have eroded people’s power to refuse poorly paid or conditioned work, and workers are working only with extreme begrudgement whilst their pensions are taken away, their job security is taken away, their security of tenure at home is taken away, and their free leisure time is taken away by increasing hours, longer commutes, “flexible” working, and the daily labour of child-rearing and home-keeping on top of a day’s employed labour.

^ This

But then you also said that the industrial strife of the 1970’s was caused by workers’ intransigence ?.

As opposed to unions rightly trying to defend wages,terms,and conditions in real terms which had been hard won from the 1930’s up to let’s say 1972.But which were then attacked by arguably deliberately imposed price led inflation bearing in mind our self sufficiency in Oil and Natural gas by the late 1970’s.On that note the deliberate transfer of wealth from UK to Germany,in order to maintain German living standards,arguably for US geopolitical reasons,shouldn’t be under estimated in that.

What is certain is that over 40 years of EEC/EU membership really hasn’t helped the cause of the Brit working class when as I’ve said the period between 1930-1972 showed the largest ever socio/economic advancements in working class conditions.All then smashed and destroyed on the EEC’s/EU’s watch.

107

What I think people are now seeing is a popular backlash against the political elite and that’s right across the western hemisphere, not just the UK. Eventually, the UK got to the point where all three main parties were led by EU remainers and the people lost their voice. Previously, there was nothing the ordinary man in the street could do to oppose the move into the EU by stealth, but the referendum exposed the real underlying currents of opinion. This was further compounded by the broken promises and lies of remainers Cameron and May.

‘There will not be another renegotiation, or another referendum. If we vote to leave then we leave.’ – David Cameron

‘Brexit means Brexit … No attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum.’ - Theresa May.

The arrogance of the elite finally came to roost as they not only got rule by deceitful treaties, but then expected people to grovel before them at the ballot box and agree to what is essentially a rule by a European dictatorship. It’s why Farage is so popular and is wiping the floor with the mainstream political elite despite being head of a single issue Brexit party. The bottom line is the majority of the people don’t want this (or a red flag, or a ■■■■■■■■)!

There must be a system in place where people can express their dissatisfaction and more than that, hold those in power to account. The EU elite got Brexit and both Conservative and Labour will pay the price at the next election and that’s how it should be.

108

Grandpa:
What I think people are now seeing is a popular backlash against the political elite and that’s right across the western hemisphere, not just the UK. Eventually, the UK got to the point where all three main parties were led by EU remainers and the people lost their voice. Previously, there was nothing the ordinary man in the street could do to oppose the move into the EU by stealth, but the referendum exposed the real underlying currents of opinion. This was further compounded by the broken promises and lies of remainers Cameron and May.

‘There will not be another renegotiation, or another referendum. If we vote to leave then we leave.’ – David Cameron

‘Brexit means Brexit … No attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum.’ - Theresa May.

The arrogance of the elite finally came to roost as they not only got rule by deceitful treaties, but then expected people to grovel before them at the ballot box and agree to what is essentially a rule by a European dictatorship. It’s why Farage is so popular and is wiping the floor with the mainstream political elite despite being head of a single issue Brexit party. The bottom line is the majority of the people don’t want this (or a red flag, or a ■■■■■■■■)!

There must be a system in place where people can express their dissatisfaction and more than that, hold those in power to account. The EU elite got Brexit and both Conservative and Labour will pay the price at the next election and that’s how it should be.

Let me guess these are the same ‘people’ who would rather trust Heath supporter Thatcher’s right hand man Farage.The same Farage who thinks it’s ok to vote the country out of existence and into EU vassalage if Cameron’s rigged supposedly non binding anyway referendum stunt had gone the way it was meant to go.The same Farage who then walked away when it didn’t.The same Farage who then said trust May.The same Farage who has effectively called Batten and his supporters racist extremists,just for telling the Saudi backed infiltration of the country by radical Islam like it is.Yeah right.

109

Carryfast:

Grandpa:
What I think people are now seeing is a popular backlash against the political elite and that’s right across the western hemisphere, not just the UK. Eventually, the UK got to the point where all three main parties were led by EU remainers and the people lost their voice. Previously, there was nothing the ordinary man in the street could do to oppose the move into the EU by stealth, but the referendum exposed the real underlying currents of opinion. This was further compounded by the broken promises and lies of remainers Cameron and May.

‘There will not be another renegotiation, or another referendum. If we vote to leave then we leave.’ – David Cameron

‘Brexit means Brexit … No attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum.’ - Theresa May.

The arrogance of the elite finally came to roost as they not only got rule by deceitful treaties, but then expected people to grovel before them at the ballot box and agree to what is essentially a rule by a European dictatorship. It’s why Farage is so popular and is wiping the floor with the mainstream political elite despite being head of a single issue Brexit party. The bottom line is the majority of the people don’t want this (or a red flag, or a ■■■■■■■■)!

There must be a system in place where people can express their dissatisfaction and more than that, hold those in power to account. The EU elite got Brexit and both Conservative and Labour will pay the price at the next election and that’s how it should be.

Let me guess these are the same ‘people’ who would rather trust Heath supporter Thatcher’s right hand man Farage.The same Farage who thinks it’s ok to vote the country out of existence and into EU vassalage if Cameron’s rigged supposedly non binding anyway referendum stunt had gone the way it was meant to go.The same Farage who then walked away when it didn’t.The same Farage who then said trust May.The same Farage who has effectively called Batten and his supporters racist extremists,just for telling the Saudi backed infiltration of the country by radical Islam like it is.Yeah right.

And a left wing MEP would bring us what exactly CF ?

110

Let me guess these are the same ‘people’ who would rather trust Heath supporter Thatcher’s right hand man Farage.The same Farage who thinks it’s ok to vote the country out of existence and into EU vassalage if Cameron’s rigged supposedly non binding anyway referendum stunt had gone the way it was meant to go.The same Farage who then walked away when it didn’t.The same Farage who then said trust May.The same Farage who has effectively called Batten and his supporters racist extremists,just for telling the Saudi backed infiltration of the country by radical Islam like it is.Yeah right.

I’m sorry Carryfast, you’ve lost me again. Heath and Thatcher are both dead. Farage is a remainer? Where on earth did you get the idea that Fareage is a remainer? Farage trusted Cameron and May because they made promises to honour the referendum outcome and when May didn’t he came back with a new party. Brexit has nothing to do with the Saudis, that’s another issue entirely.

Here it is again.

‘There will not be another renegotiation, or another referendum. If we vote to leave then we leave.’ – David Cameron

‘Brexit means Brexit … No attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum.’ - Theresa May.

That’s why Farage has come back. Have you so little faith in the parliamentary democracy Britain has, want to give up British sovereignty and be ruled by champagne socialist Europeans?

111

Grumpy Dad:

Carryfast:

Grandpa:
What I think people are now seeing is a popular backlash against the political elite and that’s right across the western hemisphere, not just the UK. Eventually, the UK got to the point where all three main parties were led by EU remainers and the people lost their voice. Previously, there was nothing the ordinary man in the street could do to oppose the move into the EU by stealth, but the referendum exposed the real underlying currents of opinion. This was further compounded by the broken promises and lies of remainers Cameron and May.

‘There will not be another renegotiation, or another referendum. If we vote to leave then we leave.’ – David Cameron

‘Brexit means Brexit … No attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum.’ - Theresa May.

The arrogance of the elite finally came to roost as they not only got rule by deceitful treaties, but then expected people to grovel before them at the ballot box and agree to what is essentially a rule by a European dictatorship. It’s why Farage is so popular and is wiping the floor with the mainstream political elite despite being head of a single issue Brexit party. The bottom line is the majority of the people don’t want this (or a red flag, or a ■■■■■■■■)!

There must be a system in place where people can express their dissatisfaction and more than that, hold those in power to account. The EU elite got Brexit and both Conservative and Labour will pay the price at the next election and that’s how it should be.

Let me guess these are the same ‘people’ who would rather trust Heath supporter Thatcher’s right hand man Farage.The same Farage who thinks it’s ok to vote the country out of existence and into EU vassalage if Cameron’s rigged supposedly non binding anyway referendum stunt had gone the way it was meant to go.The same Farage who then walked away when it didn’t.The same Farage who then said trust May.The same Farage who has effectively called Batten and his supporters racist extremists,just for telling the Saudi backed infiltration of the country by radical Islam like it is.Yeah right.

And a left wing MEP would bring us what exactly CF ?

At least that recognises Batten ( and Le Pen ) as being left wing Nationalists not so called ‘far right’.Just like Michael Collins was.While the definition is self explanatory.By definition being for the left obviously means an end to race to the bottom free market economics and putting the interest of the country’s working class and their democratic control over the government first.

As opposed to working for the interests of foreign banker class elites.You know like the ones who run the EU and their Brit Con Party puppets.

112

Grandpa:

Let me guess these are the same ‘people’ who would rather trust Heath supporter Thatcher’s right hand man Farage.The same Farage who thinks it’s ok to vote the country out of existence and into EU vassalage if Cameron’s rigged supposedly non binding anyway referendum stunt had gone the way it was meant to go.The same Farage who then walked away when it didn’t.The same Farage who then said trust May.The same Farage who has effectively called Batten and his supporters racist extremists,just for telling the Saudi backed infiltration of the country by radical Islam like it is.Yeah right.

I’m sorry Carryfast, you’ve lost me again. Heath and Thatcher are both dead. Farage is a remainer? Where on earth did you get the idea that Fareage is a remainer? Farage trusted Cameron and May because they made promises to honour the referendum outcome and when May didn’t he came back with a new party. Brexit has nothing to do with the Saudis, that’s another issue entirely.

Here it is again.

‘There will not be another renegotiation, or another referendum. If we vote to leave then we leave.’ – David Cameron

‘Brexit means Brexit … No attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum.’ - Theresa May.

That’s why Farage has come back. Have you so little faith in the parliamentary democracy Britain has, want to give up British sovereignty and be ruled by champagne socialist Europeans?

Oh wait.The referendum act also said that the result would be ‘NON BINDING’ on the government.Which of course Farage knew.

Which leaves the question why did/does Farage think that it’s ok for anyone,including parliament,to vote a recognised de Facto nation state out of existence which is the real issue here.IE an illegal handover of the country to a foreign power and therefore not something which should ever be up for discussion or vote.

As I said this is the same Farage who admires and worked under Heath supporter Thatcher and who has chosen to trash Batten who is ( was ) a far better more genuine leader for the job than Farage in being a true Nationalist.While your continuous laughable attempts,to circumvent the fact that Thatcher and Heath both knew exactly what the EEC was and their actions,with some help from HM,being why we are where we are,isn’t going to change the fact that Farage is just a controlled opposition establishment shill in all that.Just like BoJo and all the rest of that ideologically Federalist Party.

It’s clear that Farage has only ‘come back’ because the establishment has realised that UKIP under Batten’s leadership was becoming a credible force again.Unlike it’s position when Farage deliberately chose to walk away and put his stooge Bolton in his place.

And here we are with the sheep falling for the same old establishment tricks yet again this time by following dodgy Farage and ditching Batten.Even those like Juddian.To which Batten’s answer like mine is walk away and let Juncker take the place because it isn’t worth trying to save from itself.On that note I’d regard a vote for Farage as being the same as a vote for Thatcher with Farage clearly having shown his true colours in that regard. :unamused:

113

Carryfast:

Grandpa:

Let me guess these are the same ‘people’ who would rather trust Heath supporter Thatcher’s right hand man Farage.The same Farage who thinks it’s ok to vote the country out of existence and into EU vassalage if Cameron’s rigged supposedly non binding anyway referendum stunt had gone the way it was meant to go.The same Farage who then walked away when it didn’t.The same Farage who then said trust May.The same Farage who has effectively called Batten and his supporters racist extremists,just for telling the Saudi backed infiltration of the country by radical Islam like it is.Yeah right.

I’m sorry Carryfast, you’ve lost me again. Heath and Thatcher are both dead. Farage is a remainer? Where on earth did you get the idea that Fareage is a remainer? Farage trusted Cameron and May because they made promises to honour the referendum outcome and when May didn’t he came back with a new party. Brexit has nothing to do with the Saudis, that’s another issue entirely.

Here it is again.

‘There will not be another renegotiation, or another referendum. If we vote to leave then we leave.’ – David Cameron

‘Brexit means Brexit … No attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum.’ - Theresa May.

That’s why Farage has come back. Have you so little faith in the parliamentary democracy Britain has, want to give up British sovereignty and be ruled by champagne socialist Europeans?

Oh wait.The referendum act also said that the result would be ‘NON BINDING’ on the government.Which of course Farage knew.

Which leaves the question why did/does Farage think that it’s ok for anyone,including parliament,to vote a recognised de Facto nation state out of existence which is the real issue here.IE an illegal handover of the country to a foreign power and therefore not something which should ever be up for discussion or vote.

As I said this is the same Farage who admires and worked under Heath supporter Thatcher and who has chosen to trash Batten who is ( was ) a far better more genuine leader for the job than Farage in being a true Nationalist.While your continuous laughable attempts,to circumvent the fact that Thatcher and Heath both knew exactly what the EEC was and their actions,with some help from HM,being why we are where we are,isn’t going to change the fact that Farage is just a controlled opposition establishment shill in all that.Just like BoJo and all the rest of that ideologically Federalist Party.

It’s clear that Farage has only ‘come back’ because the establishment has realised that UKIP under Batten’s leadership was becoming a credible force again.Unlike it’s position when Farage deliberately chose to walk away and put his stooge Bolton in his place.

And here we are with the sheep falling for the same old establishment tricks yet again this time by following dodgy Farage and ditching Batten.Even those like Juddian.To which Batten’s answer like mine is walk away and let Juncker take the place because it isn’t worth trying to save from itself.On that note I’d regard a vote for Farage as being the same as a vote for Thatcher with Farage clearly having shown his true colours in that regard. :unamused:

Of course the referendum was non-binding on the government, we’re a parliamentary democracy and the government get the last say. Which is why all the fuss; is the governments voice more powerful than that of the people? According to remainer PM May it is, which is why the Tories are way down in the polls.

Farage isn’t trying to vote Britain out of existence, he’s trying to stop the European Union dissolving Britain into a Federalist Europe. What the successive political treaties have done is hand over British parliamentary authority to Brussels – Farage is trying to stop that. You’ve got it back to front.

A bit of history. Farage was born in 1964, he was six years old when Heath left office and was a young man of 26 when Thatcher left. There’s no doubt he’s a Thatcherite, but that’s not what he’s running for, it’s Brexit. Farage didn’t work for Thatcher or any other political party and only recently became a politician. He was a former commodity stockbroker.

Some more facts: Le Pen isn’t a left wing nationalist, there’s no such thing. The left are by definition internationalists. Le Pen is nationalist right wing.

You may agree or disagree with the EEC, the common market, but that’s what the British voted for in 1975. Free trade and open markets with European members. That then morphed into the political EU which is something else entirely. Joining the EU means giving up British sovereignty to the EU and being ruled from Brussels. That’s what the 2016 referendum was about, who do you want to be ruled by? How can Farage be part of the establishment who want to remain in the EU? He’s totally the opposite. Farage left UKIP (UKIP are way down in the polls) because the referendum brought a ‘yes’ answer, which the politicians promised to honour and so there was no more need for UKIP. He hasn’t started another UKIP, he’s started a Brexit party to try to force the politicians to honour the people’s voice.

I’ll stick my neck out here and say that in my opinion Farage is the 21st century Churchill. The reason I say that is if it wasn’t for him and people like him, people like yourself would walk straight into a European dictatorship not even realisng what it is and think it had something to do with British politicians 50 years ago. He’s the voice that woke people up to the looming danger of losing British democracy.

Here’s something I wrote just after the 2016 referendum. Read and educate yourself. Scroll down and find out what the EU really is.

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Grandpa:

Carryfast:
Oh wait.The referendum act also said that the result would be ‘NON BINDING’ on the government.Which of course Farage knew.

Which leaves the question why did/does Farage think that it’s ok for anyone,including parliament,to vote a recognised de Facto nation state out of existence which is the real issue here.IE an illegal handover of the country to a foreign power and therefore not something which should ever be up for discussion or vote.

As I said this is the same Farage who admires and worked under Heath supporter Thatcher and who has chosen to trash Batten who is ( was ) a far better more genuine leader for the job than Farage in being a true Nationalist.While your continuous laughable attempts,to circumvent the fact that Thatcher and Heath both knew exactly what the EEC was and their actions,with some help from HM,being why we are where we are,isn’t going to change the fact that Farage is just a controlled opposition establishment shill in all that.Just like BoJo and all the rest of that ideologically Federalist Party.

It’s clear that Farage has only ‘come back’ because the establishment has realised that UKIP under Batten’s leadership was becoming a credible force again.Unlike it’s position when Farage deliberately chose to walk away and put his stooge Bolton in his place.

And here we are with the sheep falling for the same old establishment tricks yet again this time by following dodgy Farage and ditching Batten.Even those like Juddian.To which Batten’s answer like mine is walk away and let Juncker take the place because it isn’t worth trying to save from itself.On that note I’d regard a vote for Farage as being the same as a vote for Thatcher with Farage clearly having shown his true colours in that regard. :unamused:

Of course the referendum was non-binding on the government, we’re a parliamentary democracy and the government get the last say. Which is why all the fuss; is the governments voice more powerful than that of the people? According to remainer PM May it is, which is why the Tories are way down in the polls.

Farage isn’t trying to vote Britain out of existence, he’s trying to stop the European Union dissolving Britain into a Federalist Europe. What the successive political treaties have done is hand over British parliamentary authority to Brussels – Farage is trying to stop that. You’ve got it back to front.

A bit of history. Farage was born in 1964, he was six years old when Heath left office and was a young man of 26 when Thatcher left. There’s no doubt he’s a Thatcherite, but that’s not what he’s running for, it’s Brexit. Farage didn’t work for Thatcher or any other political party and only recently became a politician. He was a former commodity stockbroker.

Some more facts: Le Pen isn’t a left wing nationalist, there’s no such thing. The left are by definition internationalists. Le Pen is nationalist right wing.

You may agree or disagree with the EEC, the common market, but that’s what the British voted for in 1975. Free trade and open markets with European members. That then morphed into the political EU which is something else entirely. Joining the EU means giving up British sovereignty to the EU and being ruled from Brussels. That’s what the 2016 referendum was about, who do you want to be ruled by? How can Farage be part of the establishment who want to remain in the EU? He’s totally the opposite. Farage left UKIP (UKIP are way down in the polls) because the referendum brought a ‘yes’ answer, which the politicians promised to honour and so there was no more need for UKIP. He hasn’t started another UKIP, he’s started a Brexit party to try to force the politicians to honour the people’s voice.

I’ll stick my neck out here and say that in my opinion Farage is the 21st century Churchill. The reason I say that is if it wasn’t for him and people like him, people like yourself would walk straight into a European dictatorship not even realisng what it is and think it had something to do with British politicians 50 years ago. He’s the voice that woke people up to the looming danger of losing British democracy.

Here’s something I wrote just after the 2016 referendum. Read and educate yourself. Scroll down and find out what the EU really is.

https://www.academia.edu/26529128/BREXIT_European_Union

There is so much unbelievably simplistically wrong with that reply it’s difficult to answer it.

There is no rule which says that only Socialists ( which is what I’m guessing you erroneously refer to as internationalist ) have the monopoly on what’s good for the working class ( left ).

As I said previously you can’t possibly be ‘internationalist’ if you don’t agree with the idea of sovereign nation states to be ‘inter’ with/between.That’s the flaw in the whole bs Socialist ideology.They illogically make the erroneous automatic jump from co operation ‘between’ nation states when it’s mutually beneficial to Federal collective rule.Nor as we’ve seen do you have to be a Socialist to believe in the collective of which Federalism is just a form of.Whether it’s the Soviet Union or the United States or the Yugoslav Federation or the UK.They were/are all Federations based on collective centralised Federal rule which stamps out the sovereignty and self determination of the sovereign states which made them all up originally.Ironically Russia and Yugoslavia being the two main examples which then enthusiastically went for secession and return to nationhood as opposed to the Federal collective which both the UK and the US and now the EU adhere to like zb glue.

As for Farage he was a Conservative ( Federalist ) Party member who admires bleedin Thatcher.You know the same Thatcher who supported Heath regarding our EU membership in the form of the Treaty of Rome.You know the same treaty which states the aim of ever closer union.Then the lying zb says that statement is only contained within Maastricht which is bs.While you’e obviously totally missed the point that his idea of and support for the EU referendum was firstly by your own admission knowingly that the government didn’t have to deliver the result and more importantly an obvious admission that he believes that anyone has the right to vote a Nation State out of existence.

express.co.uk/news/uk/112242 … atcher-spt

As for Churchill yes another lying Federalist,who murdered loads of Irish in that cause while at the same time sending Brit conscripts to die for Serb secession and who predictably supported a USE and the prototype EU which both Monnet and Spinelli had formulated long before.Then,just like Thatcher,he tried to pretend that we would be isolated from the Frankenstein result.Make no mistake in this argument you can only be Nationalist or a Federalist there is no third option.It’s clear enough that,like Farage and Thatcher and Churchill before him,you’re just a typical Conservative closet Federalist putting on the pretence of being a Nationalist as and when it suits your political aims.While trying to airbrush from history inconvenient left wing Nationalists/Internationalists like Shore and Benn and now Le Pen as part of that agenda.Bearing in mind that by definition a Nationalist can’t possibly believe in global borderless free market economics.While as we’ve seen Conservative Federalists are more than happy to sell out the National economic interest and the country’s working class to the lowest foreign bidder or sometimes even the highest in the case of Germany.

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The overall problem Carryfast is that politics is a science containing what we call truisms. It’s why it’s called political science and not political opinion. It’s why if someone doesn’t understand the difference between socialism and socialist, or the difference between democracy and authoritarianism, it produces some strange conclusions. That’s what the remainers rely on to fool the public by trying to present the EU as a democratic people’s choice. It’s anything but and the way it’s been brought in through treaties and ignoring the few European referendums that have occurred should make you wonder why it needed to be so underhand and secretive. The EEC was economic, the world is in the title, not political. You can’t blame British politicians that were in office decades before the EU project even existed.

The choice is clear. Do you want to replace British parliament with a European one? Do you want a British PM or a European Commissioner? Do you want the EU to decide UK immigration quotas and live in a Federalist zone instead of a nation state? If so vote remain, but don’t complain when later on when there are no more referendums.

It’s less than 75 years since Germany fell and 30 since the fall of the Berlin wall and the Europeans are at it again with a different coloured flag, only this time we want to be a part of it? The answer in the referendum was ‘No.’ Let’s get out of this dictatorship before it’s too late.

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Grandpa:
The overall problem Carryfast is that politics is a science containing what we call truisms. It’s why it’s called political science and not political opinion. It’s why if someone doesn’t understand the difference between socialism and socialist, or the difference between democracy and authoritarianism, it produces some strange conclusions. That’s what the remainers rely on to fool the public by trying to present the EU as a democratic people’s choice. It’s anything but and the way it’s been brought in through treaties and ignoring the few European referendums that have occurred should make you wonder why it needed to be so underhand and secretive. The EEC was economic, the world is in the title, not political. You can’t blame British politicians that were in office decades before the EU project even existed.

The choice is clear. Do you want to replace British parliament with a European one? Do you want a British PM or a European Commissioner? Do you want the EU to decide UK immigration quotas and live in a Federalist zone instead of a nation state? If so vote remain, but don’t complain when later on when there are no more referendums.

It’s less than 75 years since Germany fell and 30 since the fall of the Berlin wall and the Europeans are at it again with a different coloured flag, only this time we want to be a part of it? The answer in the referendum was ‘No.’ Let’s get out of this dictatorship before it’s too late.

The remainers problem is, that they cannot take on board the fact that not everyone has the same train of thought as theirs, they’ll push what they believe are untruths because to them they are.

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Grandpa:
The EEC was economic, the world is in the title, not political. You can’t blame British politicians that were in office decades before the EU project even existed.

The choice is clear. Do you want to replace British parliament with a European one? Do you want a British PM or a European Commissioner? Do you want the EU to decide UK immigration quotas and live in a Federalist zone instead of a nation state? If so vote remain, but don’t complain when later on when there are no more referendums.

It’s less than 75 years since Germany fell and 30 since the fall of the Berlin wall and the Europeans are at it again with a different coloured flag, only this time we want to be a part of it? The answer in the referendum was ‘No.’ Let’s get out of this dictatorship before it’s too late.

The treaty of Rome shows exactly what the EEC was ( one of the first stages towards ‘‘ever closer UNION’’ just as written within it ).Even Heath himself let the mask slip to a point here ‘’ it’s only the first step’'.Yes to a full on European Federation and Federal government and Federal army.Having first buried FCO 30/1048.You know the same Heath that Farage’s idol Thatcher supported.

youtube.com/watch?v=CRtmuEZg0p8

Then there’s this.Proving for once and for all that you’re avin a larf that politicians like zb Thatcher couldn’t have known and didn’t know then what we know now about the EEC and EU project.

youtube.com/watch?v=PdPfcq5K8FY 1.39 - 3.12

While you’re avin an even bigger larf if you think that you can fool anyone who can see the bigger picture here that Farage is anything more than a establishment shill just like Bolton was.Or for that matter that the Queen is going to effectively admit to dereliction of duty by contradicting the assent she gave to the European Communities Act by now giving assent to its annulment.Bearing in mind her brush off of pleas by Batten to act.Or for that matter that the US government will give its blessing to secession in Europe bearing in mind its justified paranoid fear of secession at home in the case of states like Texas.Closet Federalists trying to play at Nationalism what a larf. :unamused:

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The treaty of Rome shows exactly what the EEC was ( one of the first stages towards ‘‘ever closer UNION’’ just as written within it ).Even Heath himself let the mask slip to a point here ‘’ it’s only the first step’'.Yes to a full on European Federation and Federal government and Federal army.Having first buried FCO 30/1048.You know the same Heath that Farage’s idol Thatcher supported.

youtube.com/watch?v=CRtmuEZg0p8

Then there’s this.Proving for once and for all that you’re avin a larf that politicians like zb Thatcher couldn’t have known and didn’t know then what we know now about the EEC and EU project.

youtube.com/watch?v=PdPfcq5K8FY 1.39 - 3.12

While you’re avin an even bigger larf if you think that you can fool anyone who can see the bigger picture here that Farage is anything more than a establishment shill just like Bolton was.Or for that matter that the Queen is going to effectively admit to dereliction of duty by contradicting the assent she gave to the European Communities Act by now giving assent to its annulment.Bearing in mind her brush off of pleas by Batten to act.Or for that matter that the US government will give its blessing to secession in Europe bearing in mind its justified paranoid fear of secession at home in the case of states like Texas.Closet Federalists trying to play at Nationalism what a larf. :unamused:

Carryfast, take some advice here. Think about what you’re saying. Farage was a Thatcher supporter, therefore he’s establishment and is trying to drag the Britain into the EU … It’s absolute nonsense. No matter what you think, during the 80s Thatcher was extremely popular and was voted in for three successive terms as Labour swung massively to the left and people voted against the Red Bobbo’s, Scargill’s and Ken Livingstone. Following Thatcher and Major, even Blair got rid of the ‘We’ll keep the red flag flying here’ nonsense and produced ‘New Labour.’

Yes, the initial treaties proposed a closer union, an economic union, not a political one. There’s a huge difference between economic trade and a political ideology. It’s why Thatcher, initially an EEC supporter later turned very anti-EU. How can you say Thatcher wanted closer political (not economic) integration into Europe when the EU didn’t exist in the 80s?

How can Farage be an establishment figure? All the main party leaders are pro-EU. He’s against the push towards European Federalism, not for it.
Although the Queen obviously has private opinions, she has no say in parliamentary decisions; it’s what the English civil war was about.

Then you wander off into US politics, which has nothing to do with the EU. Everyone has an opinion, but when those opinions lack a factual basis they just sound odd.

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The remainers problem is, that they cannot take on board the fact that not everyone has the same train of thought as theirs, they’ll push what they believe are untruths because to them they are.

The referendum revealed the fact that the younger generation came out hugely in support of remaining. That’s not a surprise, it’s all they’ve ever known. Britain can’t survive without the EU, there’ll be massive job losses, we’ll lose our markets … It’s all designed to provoke fear.

Neither Norway nor Switzerland are in the EU and their economies are doing well; it’s the German and French economies that are stagnating trying to fund the EU project. Britain is not only a net contributor to the EU, but also a net importer. We leave and Europe suffers much more than us. We can join the WTO to trade, the Europeans will suffer and it’s why the politicians are doing everything possible to delay Brexit and trying to do deals which means another possible vote on a deal and hope the answer is a ‘yes.’

What exactly do we get for our 20% EU VAT? Cheap imported labour, massively increased living costs, rising bankruptcies and stagnant wage rises? A double taxation for what? What exactly is it the average worker gets out of all this? The only people the EU is beneficial for are the politicians, corporations and bankers. It’s what the EU was designed for, a coup by the elite under an elite rule.

120

Grandpa:

The treaty of Rome shows exactly what the EEC was ( one of the first stages towards ‘‘ever closer UNION’’ just as written within it ).Even Heath himself let the mask slip to a point here ‘’ it’s only the first step’'.Yes to a full on European Federation and Federal government and Federal army.Having first buried FCO 30/1048.You know the same Heath that Farage’s idol Thatcher supported.

youtube.com/watch?v=CRtmuEZg0p8

Then there’s this.Proving for once and for all that you’re avin a larf that politicians like zb Thatcher couldn’t have known and didn’t know then what we know now about the EEC and EU project.

youtube.com/watch?v=PdPfcq5K8FY 1.39 - 3.12

While you’re avin an even bigger larf if you think that you can fool anyone who can see the bigger picture here that Farage is anything more than a establishment shill just like Bolton was.Or for that matter that the Queen is going to effectively admit to dereliction of duty by contradicting the assent she gave to the European Communities Act by now giving assent to its annulment.Bearing in mind her brush off of pleas by Batten to act.Or for that matter that the US government will give its blessing to secession in Europe bearing in mind its justified paranoid fear of secession at home in the case of states like Texas.Closet Federalists trying to play at Nationalism what a larf. :unamused:

Carryfast, take some advice here. Think about what you’re saying. Farage was a Thatcher supporter, therefore he’s establishment and is trying to drag the Britain into the EU … It’s absolute nonsense. No matter what you think, during the 80s Thatcher was extremely popular and was voted in for three successive terms as Labour swung massively to the left and people voted against the Red Bobbo’s, Scargill’s and Ken Livingstone. Following Thatcher and Major, even Blair got rid of the ‘We’ll keep the red flag flying here’ nonsense and produced ‘New Labour.’

Yes, the initial treaties proposed a closer union, an economic union, not a political one. There’s a huge difference between economic trade and a political ideology. It’s why Thatcher, initially an EEC supporter later turned very anti-EU. How can you say Thatcher wanted closer political (not economic) integration into Europe when the EU didn’t exist in the 80s?

How can Farage be an establishment figure? All the main party leaders are pro-EU. He’s against the push towards European Federalism, not for it.
Although the Queen obviously has private opinions, she has no say in parliamentary decisions; it’s what the English civil war was about.

Then you wander off into US politics, which has nothing to do with the EU. Everyone has an opinion, but when those opinions lack a factual basis they just sound odd.

If you’re sitting on a jury you reach a conclusion based on the evidence nothing else matters.So join the dots.The treaty of Rome contains the exact wording of the aim being ever closer ‘UNION’ you know like the European UNION.

Heath and parliament signed us up to that treaty and so did HM by providing assent to the European Communities Act.

Thatcher clearly supported our membership of the EEC and us being a signatory to the treaty of Rome as part of that.

The evidence which I’ve posted above proves that 1 Heath knew exactly what the term ‘‘ever closer UNION’’ meant and by implication so did Thatcher and 2 so did MP’s like Shore.The difference being that ‘Internationalist’ Shore was on the right side of history here unlike Heath,Thatcher and by implication Farage and all the rest of the no hopers who you obviously idolise from Blair to May.I can only read your pathetic typical closet Federalist apologist ignoring of the facts on that basis.Make no mistake as Juddian rightly concluded Farage has shown himself to be an establishment shill and plant put in place to help his Con Federalist cronies to finish the job which Heath and Churchill before him started.

As for HM not having the ultimate say ( perogative ) over specific matters of National defence and with it National sovereignty you’re avin an even bigger larf,than trying to suggest that the term ever closer UNION,in the treaty of Rome,just means ever closer economic Union.As opposed to what we’ve actually got and what those like Shore predicted.Or for that matter the fact that US geopolitics haven’t played a massive part in the shaping of post war Europe.Not least of which being the obvious fact that a Federal Europe,as opposed to secession in Europe,fits those aims bearing in mind the paranoia of all Federations regarding secession.With the example I provided being all too real in this case with the inevitable calls of what about us from Texans if Trump had been genuine,let alone followed through,with his bs support of Brexit.

On that note you’re avin an even more bigger larf if you think that Farage has the credibility to take votes from Corbyn as opposed to ( justifiably going by your typical Thatcherite bollox ) handing more votes to him.As you’ll see when the EU election results come in possibly/probably being a landslide for Labour.To the point where even I might vote tactically for Labour,instead of English Democrats.On the basis of there eventually being more chance of Labour finally understanding the difference between internationalism v collective soviet style federalism as shown by Shore’s brilliant understanding,than taking the Federalist out of Con Party shysters like Farage.